|
Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 29 2012 05:55 arnath wrote:
I just think Rumble is a stupid hero to play against because the harassment never stops. Most heroes, you can at least eventually hope that they'll run low on mana and have to spam a little less. Vs Rumble, you're just getting shot at with flamethrower + harpoon every 3 seconds.
honestly I find the fact that Riven has no resources more annoying than the fact that Rumble has no resources.
|
On February 29 2012 05:58 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:55 arnath wrote:
I just think Rumble is a stupid hero to play against because the harassment never stops. Most heroes, you can at least eventually hope that they'll run low on mana and have to spam a little less. Vs Rumble, you're just getting shot at with flamethrower + harpoon every 3 seconds. honestly I find the fact that Riven has no resources more annoying than the fact that Rumble has no resources.
I just dont get the no resource thing. Hell, even ENERGY doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me. How is it that Cass and Ryze are capable of capturing the feel of always being active and doing stuff with mana costs but kennen, akali, riven, renek, and the rest get off scott free?
In all honesty that would be one of the big things I would take a look at overall if I was Riot. Im all for cool new things, but when they are contrived as badly as some are (overheating) there needs to be SOME sort of punishment, either in terms of weaker spells or health costs or SOMETHING.
|
There is punishment...
Garen has long cooldowns and his skillset by itself is far from spectacular. Tryndamere uses(used) health as did Mundo.
Kennen Akali and Shen all can't spam as much. They're only unlimited in short bursts, but they start hurting far earlier than a mana-user starting from full mana. That's a good tradeoff. Same with Lee Sin.
For rumble too, you can't really spam all his skills of you will get silenced for 5 seconds. This means that you need to be somewhat conservative in comparison to mana users. He's more of an energy user in that way, though he can opt to overkill and overheat as penalty.
Riven's a bit broken though(this doesn't mean overpowered). Her skills are actually good, on low cooldown, and nothing costs anything. She can just spam everything and there's almost no punishment for spamming everything as soon as it's off cooldown(Unless you get over 3 stacks).
|
On February 29 2012 05:55 arnath wrote:
I just think Rumble is a stupid hero to play against because the harassment never stops. Most heroes, you can at least eventually hope that they'll run low on mana and have to spam a little less. Vs Rumble, you're just getting shot at with flamethrower + harpoon every 3 seconds.
Basically, there needs to be a meaningful penalty to missing skillshots and spamming abilities. Without one you get giant balance issues.
|
So... I carry like 90% of my Naut games. Not through damage, but because he peels and defends so hard it isn't even funny. Once I have like, philo/mercs/hog/aegis, which isn't that hard to get to, no one touches my carry for the rest of the game. Lulz as hell, imo. Very minimal laning potential, tho.
Edit: stupid phones.
|
On February 29 2012 05:11 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:04 Slayer91 wrote:
Ì get the feeling gtrsrs played against rumble once and lost and now thinks he's broken. If you lane versus him like 10 times in a row he's not scary at all any more. i have laned against rumbles dozens or even hundreds of times in practices and ranked games, and he is completely broken in every way as soon as he gets even slightly ahead of you, he goes from harassing the shit out of you and forcing you off creeps with one flamethrower, to completely killing you with 1 flamethrower. even if he's not ahead of you, as soon as he gets revolver, he's not gonna ever fall behind. and he scales better than about any champ in the game. rumble is a piece of shit
How does rumble scale better than about any champ in the game?
Yes, flamethrower's full duration damage scales great with AP while you're in the danger zone, but I find that the limited range (compare to other APs) means that you have to build more tanky in return.
I'd be a lot more worried if the enemy has a fed Morde/Cass late-game than if they have a fed Rumble.
|
On February 29 2012 06:28 Shikyo wrote:
There is punishment...
Garen has long cooldowns and his skillset by itself is far from spectacular. Tryndamere uses(used) health as did Mundo.
Kennen Akali and Shen all can't spam as much. They're only unlimited in short bursts, but they start hurting far earlier than a mana-user starting from full mana. That's a good tradeoff. Same with Lee Sin.
For rumble too, you can't really spam all his skills of you will get silenced for 5 seconds. This means that you need to be somewhat conservative in comparison to mana users. He's more of an energy user in that way, though he can opt to overkill and overheat as penalty.
Riven's a bit broken though(this doesn't mean overpowered). Her skills are actually good, on low cooldown, and nothing costs anything. She can just spam everything and there's almost no punishment for spamming everything as soon as it's off cooldown(Unless you get over 3 stacks).
Garen, Kat, and Renek all work because they have long cooldowns. But all three are low on the actual competitive viability scale.
Mundo and Morde work because they have health costs. Vlad and Trynd do not because they are REWARDED for spamming their skills in terms of health regeneration.
Shen WORKED (past tense) because he USED to have meaningful decisions in fights. That made up for the fact that he STILL was broken in lane. Kennen has no drawbacks. Akali is limited by her R stacks, not her energy costs. Lee Sin works because he has enough spells that are useful to where you WILL run out of energy if you dont hit things or pick what you are going to do VERY carefully.
Rumble has no punishment whatsoever. He is rewarded for overheating, simply because it is way to easy to avoid doing it. He would be fine if, say, an entire combo put him red, and then they reduced the bonus damage he did to ACTUALLY make it punishing. As is? He gets to CHOOSE when he goes red. That doesnt work.
Riven is broke. No reason she shouldnt have mana.
Basically, at some point Riot lost sight of what they actually NEEDED to do in order to balance champions without mana in the name of making "cool" concepts. So we end up with characters like Vlad, kennen, rumble, and Riven, who all have absolutely no downside to spamming abilities because they are REWARDED for doing so.
|
On February 29 2012 06:28 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:55 arnath wrote:
I just think Rumble is a stupid hero to play against because the harassment never stops. Most heroes, you can at least eventually hope that they'll run low on mana and have to spam a little less. Vs Rumble, you're just getting shot at with flamethrower + harpoon every 3 seconds. Basically, there needs to be a meaningful penalty to missing skillshots and spamming abilities. Without one you get giant balance issues.
Rumble's punishment is overheating. It can be useful situationally, but if you just spam skills you'll very quickly overheat in any real fight, and doing it at the wrong moment makes you useless.
Also, isn't cooldown penalty enough?
I'd assume that cooldown-based champions (Garen, Riven, Shyv) have skills that are adjusted for the fact that they don't cost mana: They're either on a longer cooldown than comparable mana-based skills, or they're simply weaker. Instead of waiting for them to run out of mana, you have to abuse the timings where they've used up their cooldowns.
Come late-game, it's the same for mana-based casters in most standard scenarios: Cass can easily afford the mana cost of missing a skill shot or two late-game, unless there's just been a huge fight, and Vlad doesn't care about his health costs anymore in the vast majority of late-game scenarios.
Edit: Eh, T_D already gave a much better answer while I was typing up this post.
About Rumble 'choosing' when to go red: Yes, you choose it, but while you're in the danger zone you can't spam your skills *and* choose not to. You have to decide, so there's a trade-off to make. I don't know enough about champions to say whether the penalty is severe enough or not (i.e. whether overheat should last longer).
|
On February 29 2012 06:44 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:11 gtrsrs wrote:On February 29 2012 05:04 Slayer91 wrote:
Ì get the feeling gtrsrs played against rumble once and lost and now thinks he's broken. If you lane versus him like 10 times in a row he's not scary at all any more. i have laned against rumbles dozens or even hundreds of times in practices and ranked games, and he is completely broken in every way as soon as he gets even slightly ahead of you, he goes from harassing the shit out of you and forcing you off creeps with one flamethrower, to completely killing you with 1 flamethrower. even if he's not ahead of you, as soon as he gets revolver, he's not gonna ever fall behind. and he scales better than about any champ in the game. rumble is a piece of shit How does rumble scale better than about any champ in the game? Yes, flamethrower's full duration damage scales great with AP while you're in the danger zone, but I find that the limited range (compare to other APs) means that you have to build more tanky in return. I'd be a lot more worried if the enemy has a fed Morde/Cass late-game than if they have a fed Rumble.
If a fed rumble lands a good ult late game,that shit cleans house.
And its not like its hard to hit since it has pretty huge range.
|
Why are you guys complaining, when none of the heroes you're calling broken are very popular/sucessful at tournament level?
|
On February 29 2012 06:48 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 06:28 Craton wrote:On February 29 2012 05:55 arnath wrote:
I just think Rumble is a stupid hero to play against because the harassment never stops. Most heroes, you can at least eventually hope that they'll run low on mana and have to spam a little less. Vs Rumble, you're just getting shot at with flamethrower + harpoon every 3 seconds. Basically, there needs to be a meaningful penalty to missing skillshots and spamming abilities. Without one you get giant balance issues. Rumble's punishment is overheating. It can be useful situationally, but if you just spam skills you'll very quickly overheat in any real fight, and doing it at the wrong moment makes you useless. Also, isn't cooldown penalty enough? I'd assume that cooldown-based champions (Garen, Riven, Shyv) have skills that are adjusted for the fact that they don't cost mana: They're either on a longer cooldown than comparable mana-based skills, or they're simply weaker. Instead of waiting for them to run out of mana, you have to abuse the timings where they've used up their cooldowns. Come late-game, it's the same for mana-based casters in most standard scenarios: Cass can easily afford the mana cost of missing a skill shot or two late-game, unless there's just been a huge fight, and Vlad doesn't care about his health costs anymore in the vast majority of late-game scenarios.
you'd assume so, but the problem with Riven, Vlad, and Rumble most notably is that their CDs are simply too low. 7 second base CD for a damage shield that scales with AD is fucking absurd when there's no other limiting factor. Rumble doesn't have exploitable timings, you simply need to wait for your CDs/mana so that you can trade with him, but there aren't CD holes in his ability usage. Vlad's tides of blood are on too low a CD. Transfusion is mostly fine, but the fact that Vlad has a crazy strong AoE nuke on a 4.5 second base CD that costs less than nothing with spell vamp is just crazy.
|
On February 29 2012 06:52 Slayer91 wrote:
Why are you guys complaing, when none of the heroes you're calling broken are very popular/sucessful at tournament level?
I think this discussion was about champion design, not about competitive viability. AIUI, it's about Rumble/Yorick/Vlad etc. being "broken" in the sense that they aren't fun to play against because they're too abusive in lane, not because they're too strong in the game as a whole.
Edit: About CDs being too low, yeah, the costs (cooldown/energy/heat) may not be as high as they should be. (I'm just being evasive because I don't know enough to suggest specific changes. I do think that increasing Rumble's early cooldowns would be perfectly fair.)
|
On February 29 2012 06:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 06:28 Shikyo wrote:
There is punishment...
Garen has long cooldowns and his skillset by itself is far from spectacular. Tryndamere uses(used) health as did Mundo.
Kennen Akali and Shen all can't spam as much. They're only unlimited in short bursts, but they start hurting far earlier than a mana-user starting from full mana. That's a good tradeoff. Same with Lee Sin.
For rumble too, you can't really spam all his skills of you will get silenced for 5 seconds. This means that you need to be somewhat conservative in comparison to mana users. He's more of an energy user in that way, though he can opt to overkill and overheat as penalty.
Riven's a bit broken though(this doesn't mean overpowered). Her skills are actually good, on low cooldown, and nothing costs anything. She can just spam everything and there's almost no punishment for spamming everything as soon as it's off cooldown(Unless you get over 3 stacks). Garen, Kat, and Renek all work because they have long cooldowns. But all three are low on the actual competitive viability scale. Mundo works because he has health costs. Vlad and Trynd do not because they are REWARDED for spamming their skills in terms of health regeneration. Shen WORKED (past tense) because he USED to have meaningful decisions in fights. That made up for the fact that he STILL was broken in lane. Kennen has no drawbacks. Akali is limited by her R stacks, not her energy costs. Lee Sin works because he has enough spells that are useful to where you WILL run out of energy if you dont hit things or pick what you are going to do VERY carefully. Rumble has no punishment whatsoever. He is rewarded for overheating, simply because it is way to easy to avoid doing it. He would be fine if, say, an entire combo put him red, and then they reduced the bonus damage he did to ACTUALLY make it punishing. As is? He gets to CHOOSE when he goes red. That doesnt work. Riven is broke. No reason she shouldnt have mana.
Akali is limited... you never see her use E in fights and that's not because they forget about it. It's because she's energy capped.
Kennen actually does have drawbacks as he can't spam Q as much as he'd like, though it's very minor and usually not an issue.
Rumble can choose when he goes red yes but if the player chooses to not go red it means they can't use every skill when they're off cooldown..
|
On February 29 2012 06:52 Slayer91 wrote:
Why are you guys complaining, when none of the heroes you're calling broken are very popular/sucessful at tournament level?
Kennen, Vlad, Riven, Rumble, Shen, Tryn are all played at tournament level.
So, ya.
Not to mention Mundo, Garen, Renek are run by certain people (M5, Tree, Voyboy) and Akali and morde were both must ban/pick before nerfs.
so again, not sure what you were thinking there.
On February 29 2012 06:56 Shikyo wrote:
Akali is limited... you never see her use E in fights and that's not because they forget about it. It's because she's energy capped.
Kennen actually does have drawbacks as he can't spam Q as much as he'd like, though it's very minor and usually not an issue.
Rumble can choose when he goes red yes but if the player chooses to not go red it means they can't use every skill when they're off cooldown..
Akali doesnt NEED e in fights. Her q-r does all of her damage. In all honestly, it is completely a throwaway farm ability, in the same way that annie shield is a throwaway defensive ability. It doesnt actually help the character do her job in any meaningful way.
A smart kennen gets all the abilities he wants off in fights. Energy does not come CLOSE to forming any sort of constraint.
The problem with rumble is that it is currently too easy to pretty much constantly spam WITHOUT actually going into overheat. Honestly, if they tweaked the system a little bit it would be fine, but as is its too easy to dissipate heat.
Basically, I just think that Riot needs to take a good long look at what manaless champions are trying to do and go back and tweak them so that they actually work without being stupidly frustrating to deal with. And no more Riven "lets just make her manaless for the sake of making a manaless champion" shit.
|
On February 29 2012 06:52 Slayer91 wrote:
Why are you guys complaining, when none of the heroes you're calling broken are very popular/sucessful at tournament level?
I'm not really complaining that Rumble (or Riven or Vlad or anyone else) is overpowered. I just think that the core mechanics of manaless heroes are stupid. If you can spam your skills indefinitely there's very little decision making involved in laning, you're just casting things because they happen to be off cooldown. I think with no penalty for using your skills haphazardly you create a laning situation that's not fun for you or the opponent.
|
On February 29 2012 06:52 Slayer91 wrote:
Why are you guys complaining, when none of the heroes you're calling broken are very popular/sucessful at tournament level?
I'm not complaining but i really don't buy all this "is not popular/strong at tournament level". There is some stuff in this game that's broken at low levels and sucks at every different levels, still doesn't change the fact that it breaks the game for a big playerbase and riot does everything to balance that one out (hence why Xin, stealth champs, globals all got nerfed while they weren't that OP at higher Elo).
|
not to mention some tourney level things become more popular even without significant buffs, whether through nerfs of competing champions or rediscovering (chinese players picking up akali helped reinstigate akali fotm, i dont believe there were any big buffs or nerfs to her at the time)
|
Patch being released tomorrow? (US)
|
On February 29 2012 07:29 Navi wrote:
not to mention some tourney level things become more popular even without significant buffs, whether through nerfs of competing champions or rediscovering (chinese players picking up akali helped reinstigate akali fotm, i dont believe there were any big buffs or nerfs to her at the time)
Akali big buffed autos after dash!
|
On February 29 2012 07:13 arnath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 06:52 Slayer91 wrote:
Why are you guys complaining, when none of the heroes you're calling broken are very popular/sucessful at tournament level? I'm not really complaining that Rumble (or Riven or Vlad or anyone else) is overpowered. I just think that the core mechanics of manaless heroes are stupid. If you can spam your skills indefinitely there's very little decision making involved in laning, you're just casting things because they happen to be off cooldown. I think with no penalty for using your skills haphazardly you create a laning situation that's not fun for you or the opponent.
"Not using your skills" isn´t a design goal. Mana is a holdover from Dota which has it because Wc3 has it. Non-mana champions act differently with their resources and have different limitations.
Energy is an advantage in the longterm laning phase but during teamfights you actually run out - that never happens to manabased champions.
Katarina and Garen have to deal with being melee and very CC prone.
Faulty balance resourcemanagement wise isn´t an issue purely based on not having mana. Remember release Talon?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
