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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:36 Unentschieden wrote: They shouldn´t reduce prices it just makes people rage because: they already bought them and/or the reduction isn´t big enough. Totally. They should actually reduce at a meaningful rate and amount. They reduce at like 1% the rate/amount they add new 6300 champs. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On February 29 2012 04:41 Mogwai wrote: rumble's really not that bad. I really used to hate that fucker, but seriously, you can trade favorably with him with Wu and Irelia and he just generally seems to get ruined by competent ranged tops. around the same time I got over rumble, I got over Kennen. it actually doesn't seem that hard to trade well against him so long as you don't eat damage from the neutral position for no reason. vlad's an asshat, but is pretty weak vs. burst laners with the capability to sustain burst cycles that put meaningful damage on him and 100->0 combo laners. he is bullshit in all lanes if he gets to level 9 + WotA without falling behind, but so long as you're not trying to play GP vs. him or something it doesn't feel that bad. wota and revolver got nerfed... that's why these champions have receded from the grossly op positions they were in. | ||
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Jaso
United States2147 Posts
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:58 bmn wrote: I disagree with this, I enjoy the diversity of hero types. I think that the core mechanics of only having mana-based heroes is stupid and limiting. Cooldown-based heroes shift the penalties from long-term sustain (running out of mana) to short-term vulnerable periods (cooldowns). I enjoy the diversity in play styles, and I don't see why you think the latter require little decision-making. If anything, I find the single-resource style (all heroes use mana) bland and less interesting WRT decision-making, since it's always the same equation, just with slightly different constants. If the cooldown-based heroes are too strong/abusive, that's a balance problem, but there's nothing in the mechanic that makes that necessary -- although it's certainly harder to balance around multiple resource types than it is with just mana-based heroes. I think what makes Rumble and Riven annoying is that they also have good escaping skills, so they can spam, hurt, you, and get out of range if you don't have a gap closer. If Rumble's shield didn't speed him up, he'd have to be a lot more careful about choosing when to harrass. Yorick is annoying because he isn't very vulnerable if he misses a W, the ghoul is still there and he still benefits from his passive. Apart from mana costs, he isn't penalized for missing skill shots/timings, and his cooldowns are very low as well. Two points: 1) I'd argue that very few of the resourceless champions have anything approaching "long cooldowns". For example, compare Irelia vs Riven. Irelia's cooldowns are just as long if not longer but she also has to deal with her mana pool. 2) Maybe this is the DotA player in me speaking but I personally don't think that you should be able to stay in lane forever. Harassment should have some sort of lasting effect and cost or else it has no point. You're not making trades, you're just mildly inconveniencing each other for the next 5 seconds. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On February 29 2012 09:17 Craton wrote: They should actually reduce at a meaningful rate and amount. They reduce at like 1% the rate/amount they add new 6300 champs. Realitycheck: why? As consumer it´s rational to demand lower prices but for Riot raising the total "IP value" of the game makes sense since they don´t want us to ever run out of stuff to buy. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On February 29 2012 09:37 arnath wrote: Two points: 1) I'd argue that very few of the resourceless champions have anything approaching "long cooldowns". For example, compare Irelia vs Riven. Irelia's cooldowns are just as long if not longer but she also has to deal with her mana pool. 2) Maybe this is the DotA player in me speaking but I personally don't think that you should be able to stay in lane forever. Harassment should have some sort of lasting effect and cost or else it has no point. You're not making trades, you're just mildly inconveniencing each other for the next 5 seconds. 1) Sure, I'm not saying Riven's cooldowns are not too short. As I said, cooldown-based champions should have vulnerabilities that mana-based champs don't; if they are just normal casters with infinite mana and no drawbacks then it's not interesting or balanced. You said that you found the basic mechanic bad, I'm saying it adds variety and isn'tjust mindless. 2) Yes, they should have weaknesses. Vlad is arguably broken because he has no mana and also a free heal. Non-mana casters might be broken if you add spellvamp, but that basic problem also applies to ww/Cho/Nasus passives. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 29 2012 09:37 arnath wrote: 2) Maybe this is the DotA player in me speaking but I personally don't think that you should be able to stay in lane forever. Harassment should have some sort of lasting effect and cost or else it has no point. You're not making trades, you're just mildly inconveniencing each other for the next 5 seconds. DotA really has no relevance to this discussion, because there is no proper analogy to this sort of lane sustain problem due to the courier. In DotA, ANY laner can stay in lane forever. You should literally never have to go home because you can always courier yourself a salve and a clarity (which costs 15 gold more than a TP) or refill your bottle instead of walking home to fountain. The only time you should ever have to physically go back to the fountain is if you're so low on both HP and mana that even the salve+clarity won't cover your needs (e.g. you survived a gank with like 50 hp left). This is a problem that's very much unique to LoL. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
But I like the idea. | ||
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Jaso
United States2147 Posts
On February 29 2012 09:17 Craton wrote: They should actually reduce at a meaningful rate and amount. They reduce at like 1% the rate/amount they add new 6300 champs. Really can't be complaining about Riot's prices. The game is free... If you want to buy champs faster, get RP. The purpose is to reward players who play a lot or are willing to spend money, considering RP is Riot's only major source of income. | ||
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rob.au
1087 Posts
On February 29 2012 09:49 TheYango wrote: DotA really has no relevance to this discussion, because there is no proper analogy to this sort of lane sustain problem due to the courier. In DotA, ANY laner can stay in lane forever. You should literally never have to go home because you can always courier yourself a salve and a clarity (which costs 15 gold more than a TP) or refill your bottle instead of walking home to fountain. The only time you should ever have to physically go back to the fountain is if you're so low on both HP and mana that even the salve+clarity won't cover your needs (e.g. you survived a gank with like 50 hp left). This is a problem that's very much unique to LoL. There might not necessarily be a "lasting effect", but there's definitely a cost to getting harassed in dota. Since most harassment is done through auto attacks actually being meaningful early game, even getting harassed to 70% hp puts you at much higher risk of dying since heroes have a lot higher burst/stronger ganks. Sure you can just constantly ferry yourself regen and while 100g isn't that expensive for a health pot, you're likely only farming 150-300gpm depending on the lane. I feel like sustainability is still way to easy to come by in LoL, it's pretty much the only reason essentially resourceless heroes with low cd's like rumble/riven are not completely broken. There should be more of a cost to make harassment better and laning more interesting. I find it incredibly stupid that even in mid lane you have to blow all your mana just to get past someones potions, by which time they probably want to go buy items/wards anyway and can just pick up more 35g potions. Having said that I don't think the majority of the LoL playerbase feels that way, and I think that Riot likes laning the way it is now. Even the power curve on heroes has dropped over the time I've played LoL, which is weird as most games the power curve tends to increase. High sustain and weaker heroes basically makes laning a lot easier for casual players, which is what Riot really focuses on now. On February 29 2012 10:29 Jaso wrote: Really can't be complaining about Riot's prices. The game is free... If you want to buy champs faster, get RP. The purpose is to reward players who play a lot or are willing to spend money, considering RP is Riot's only major source of income. It definitely works for Riot at the moment, so there isn't much reason for them to change. However I wouldn't be surprised if Valve made all the heroes free in dota2, and just relied purely on skins etc... to make a profit. Unlocking all the heroes/runes/runepages is a huge barrier to the competitive scene, buying all the heroes with RP costs hundreds of dollars, and with IP it takes thousands of games to unlock them. There are honestly enough heroes now that they could probably just reduce an old hero to 450ip everytime they release a new 6300 and their difference in their profit would probably be unrecognizable. | ||
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Jaso
United States2147 Posts
Plus, Dota2 isn't a free game. Though TBH Riot could also probably make it so that they only bring in cash on skins... but there's really no reason for them to do so. | ||
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On February 29 2012 09:42 Unentschieden wrote: Realitycheck: why? As consumer it´s rational to demand lower prices but for Riot raising the total "IP value" of the game makes sense since they don´t want us to ever run out of stuff to buy. As long as they release new runes every year and release new champions every two weeks we will never run out of things to buy. Reducing the IP cost on champions that are 6 months old or something like that could yield them a ton of nice PR and honestly who cares if people bitch about having paid for the champion at full price months ago. People bitch about high costs already so either way Riot is gonna have people bitching at them. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On February 29 2012 11:31 overt wrote: As long as they release new runes every year and release new champions every two weeks we will never run out of things to buy. Reducing the IP cost on champions that are 6 months old or something like that could yield them a ton of nice PR and honestly who cares if people bitch about having paid for the champion at full price months ago. People bitch about high costs already so either way Riot is gonna have people bitching at them. So why reduce them as such? You admit they're in a lose-lose, and as they are now they're very slowly stepping down IP costs on old champs. There's no PR necessary, they're doing what you're describing just by a less amount. I own all but 6 champions on my main, and play enough to keep that number relatively down, but having 3 smurf level 30s I probably only own 15-20 on each of those, and when I hit 6.3k on them I'll just buy a new champ. | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
That this game is free is completely irrelevant. People have done the math time and time again and proven that the length of time required to even get most of the champs is absurd; it's so high that it will literally take years for casual players. The RP costs are the same for 3k, 4.8k, and 6.3k champs. The total IP cost for every champion right now is something close to 200k. The total RP cost for champions is over $500 at the best rate and that doesn't even touch on skins. It's delusional to think that they would suddenly stop making money if the cut IP prices at a more reasonable rate. It's also a load of shit to pretend someone isn't allowed to complain -- it's crap to say you should just roll over and accept anything. It's a very common complaint that the total cost is way to high and every time they do a half-assed reduction it just rekindles the fire held by the community. Sure, it's nice, but it's not what it should be. THAT is the issue. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 29 2012 11:46 Zdrastochye wrote: So why reduce them as such? You admit they're in a lose-lose, and as they are now they're very slowly stepping down IP costs on old champs. There's no PR necessary, they're doing what you're describing just by a less amount. I own all but 6 champions on my main, and play enough to keep that number relatively down, but having 3 smurf level 30s I probably only own 15-20 on each of those, and when I hit 6.3k on them I'll just buy a new champ. Riot is going to hit a barrier where they are completely relying on current customers who are 'hooked' because new customers will be unwilling to deal with the IP inflation creating a barrier to entry even for casual play. There will be a point where even the casual playerbase will not be appeased by 10 free champions and slow IP gain when weighed against a pool of 150, 110 of which cost 6.3k IP. As for right now the system works essentially because consumers are dumb and are unwilling to 'vote with their wallet.' Now I'm not saying that the money you spend on the game is cost prohibitive to you and you had to sacrifice greatly to spend it, that's not what makes it dumb from a economics standpoint; it's about how the thought process of 'if you want more champs you buy them' is chanted even from people who admit they don't really like the system itself, which is a self perpetuating idea that will continue to see Riot releasing 6.3k IP champs and barely reducing the price of old ones. Games do not get more expensive as they age. Even when games come out with expansion packs, the retail is dropped in price(almost always to the point where retail+expansion at that point = original retail, sometimes there's a slight difference). LoL however is doing just that, and at some point it will become an unsustainable model for Riot. They are laughing their way to the bank until then however. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
Important Note: You can now activate a timestamp for game chat in the options menu | ||
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On February 29 2012 12:07 HazMat wrote: Lol Chaox just said TSM's gaming house address on stream. 2strong. I thought it's been known for a while. People have sent them pizza and red bull. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On February 29 2012 12:09 JBright wrote: I thought it's been known for a while. People have sent them pizza and red bull. Well Regi just raged hard at Chaox hard because he said the whole address lol. "Dude if anyone does pranks on this house youre paying bro." | ||
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