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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 25 2012 01:54 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 01:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Its always just better to get a mix of resists and health. I honestly cant think of a single champion where I want a tremendous amount of 1 thing and next to nothing on the other. Low hanging fruit: Cho'gath with his 2870 feasted health at 18. Doesn't take more that incidental health gain (21 defense, even!) to push him over 3k, where he can just build 200/200 and be nearly invincible. Rammus is pretty similar the other way, though defensive stats are more useful to him than HP is to Cho'gath due to DBC uptime and his passive. (e: Also Leona with her W). On a similar but not identical note, a couple of champions have very high armor OR MR so only really need health and the other - Taric is the big one here, but Xerath technically counts on the off chance you need to buy defensive items on him, as does Poppy with her 125 natural armor at 18. Overall, though, there's maybe half a dozen champions where it's really a good idea to ignore any of the defensive stats when tanking out, and they all have extraordinarily good reasons for doing so.
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless.
Resists actually scale linearly with themselves regardless of how much you have (twice as much armor is always twice as much EHP). It's just that they scale multiplicatively with HP (as EHP is related to the product of HP and Resists).
As far as normal HP/Resists optimization goes:
http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=11623
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On February 25 2012 01:59 midnight.tokyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 01:45 Mogwai wrote:
Ok, so I think I was being a derp about this % HP thing earlier but something's still not sitting right with me about it... I'm on no sleep though, so I'm gonna stop thinking about it until I get some sleep. rethos got it right the first time I think 10% heal, 100 dmgWith 2000 HP, 0 Armor = 2000 EHP 200 HP returned, 200 EHP returned With 1000 HP, 100 Armor = 1000 +100% = 2000 EHP 100 HP returned, 100 +100% = 200 EHP returned It all looks good until you realise 1000 HP costs more then 100 armor though Edit: The above subsequently also goes out the door when arpen comes into play
well ye, in a real life situation even if hp was 10% better for you, if it cost 20% more gold you wouldnt buy it, unless you were building specific items.
arp doesnt have to affect the equation that theyango posted, you could consider it more as a cost modifier. although 50 armor might be worth buying, if the guy killing you is ignoring 50% of your armor you need to look at how much 100 armor would cost.
obviously you could just plug in the reduced effect of armor into the ehp equation but i think having what theyango says as a given fact makes conversations much easier, rather than people wanting to look up 100 equations depending on the situation.
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On February 25 2012 01:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
Whats k?
The post citrus state of being.
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So I don't know exactly where to put this, but I see a lot of AP/Soraka bots now. It's pretty entertaining to watch, since she gives nearly infinite mana with her new Infuse and any AoE APs can just push the fuck out of lane and contest dragon really early on. Of course, any AD worth their salt can farm under tower safely, but it's nice to see people switch it up every now and then.
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On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 01:54 Niton wrote:On February 25 2012 01:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Its always just better to get a mix of resists and health. I honestly cant think of a single champion where I want a tremendous amount of 1 thing and next to nothing on the other. Low hanging fruit: Cho'gath with his 2870 feasted health at 18. Doesn't take more that incidental health gain (21 defense, even!) to push him over 3k, where he can just build 200/200 and be nearly invincible. Rammus is pretty similar the other way, though defensive stats are more useful to him than HP is to Cho'gath due to DBC uptime and his passive. (e: Also Leona with her W). On a similar but not identical note, a couple of champions have very high armor OR MR so only really need health and the other - Taric is the big one here, but Xerath technically counts on the off chance you need to buy defensive items on him, as does Poppy with her 125 natural armor at 18. Overall, though, there's maybe half a dozen champions where it's really a good idea to ignore any of the defensive stats when tanking out, and they all have extraordinarily good reasons for doing so. I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless.
I don't think it's meaningful either - I was just pointing out that his base was so high that HP itemization was significantly weaker on him 
Looking at his actual level 18 health, Nunu's actually only 400 hp behind..
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On February 25 2012 02:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless. Resists actually scale linearly with themselves regardless of how much you have (twice as much armor is always twice as much EHP). It's just that they scale multiplicatively with HP (as EHP is related to the product of HP and Resists). As far as normal HP/Resists optimization goes: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=11623
Health and resists scale linearly with themselves, multiplicatively with each other. We've been over this so many times why do people keep coming up with the diminishing returns misconception on resists? o.O
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On February 25 2012 02:58 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:03 TheYango wrote:On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless. Resists actually scale linearly with themselves regardless of how much you have (twice as much armor is always twice as much EHP). It's just that they scale multiplicatively with HP (as EHP is related to the product of HP and Resists). As far as normal HP/Resists optimization goes: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=11623 Health and resists scale linearly with themselves, multiplicatively with each other. We've been over this so many times why do people keep coming up with the diminishing returns misconception on resists? o.O
Cuz its an easy (if incorrect) way to get at the idea that going from 50-100 armor adds more to your ehp than going from 100-150 armor. That is basically diminishing returns as I learned it in Economics- each additional unit gives less of something than the one preceding.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 25 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:58 Slayer91 wrote:On February 25 2012 02:03 TheYango wrote:On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless. Resists actually scale linearly with themselves regardless of how much you have (twice as much armor is always twice as much EHP). It's just that they scale multiplicatively with HP (as EHP is related to the product of HP and Resists). As far as normal HP/Resists optimization goes: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=11623 Health and resists scale linearly with themselves, multiplicatively with each other. We've been over this so many times why do people keep coming up with the diminishing returns misconception on resists? o.O Cuz its an easy (if incorrect) way to get at the idea that going from 50-100 armor adds more to your ehp than going from 100-150 armor. That is basically diminishing returns as I learned it in Economics- each additional unit gives less of something than the one preceding.
They add the exact same amount of EHP.
Going from 50-100 armor makes HP give more EHP per point, which is why it's better to balance HP/resists. The amount of EHP added per point of armor is the exact same.
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On February 25 2012 03:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 25 2012 02:58 Slayer91 wrote:On February 25 2012 02:03 TheYango wrote:On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless. Resists actually scale linearly with themselves regardless of how much you have (twice as much armor is always twice as much EHP). It's just that they scale multiplicatively with HP (as EHP is related to the product of HP and Resists). As far as normal HP/Resists optimization goes: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=11623 Health and resists scale linearly with themselves, multiplicatively with each other. We've been over this so many times why do people keep coming up with the diminishing returns misconception on resists? o.O Cuz its an easy (if incorrect) way to get at the idea that going from 50-100 armor adds more to your ehp than going from 100-150 armor. That is basically diminishing returns as I learned it in Economics- each additional unit gives less of something than the one preceding. They add the exact same amount of EHP. Going from 50-100 armor makes HP give more EHP per point, which is why it's better to balance HP/resists. The amount of EHP added per point of armor is the exact same.
ya thats what i meant. I got confused.
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Wow, i just played against a Gangplank top as Shen. Level 1-3, whatever, he had me pushed to my tower but i was still farming. Hit level 4, EQW + Exaust + Ignite was one dead gangplank. He got back to lane and I was already 6, snowballed from there.
The proposed Shen nerfs on the PBE isn't going to fix him. Get rid of the damage reduction on his taunt, boom less OP.
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On February 25 2012 03:43 57 Corvette wrote:
Wow, i just played against a Gangplank top as Shen. Level 1-3, whatever, he had me pushed to my tower but i was still farming. Hit level 4, EQW + Exaust + Ignite was one dead gangplank. He got back to lane and I was already 6, snowballed from there.
The proposed Shen nerfs on the PBE isn't going to fix him. Get rid of the damage reduction on his taunt, boom less OP.
Those nerfs are already live.
And really the only nerf he had was 0.5% hp healing on Q which while significant isnt enough to change anything about his domination.
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On February 25 2012 03:43 57 Corvette wrote:
Wow, i just played against a Gangplank top as Shen. Level 1-3, whatever, he had me pushed to my tower but i was still farming. Hit level 4, EQW + Exaust + Ignite was one dead gangplank. He got back to lane and I was already 6, snowballed from there.
The proposed Shen nerfs on the PBE isn't going to fix him. Get rid of the damage reduction on his taunt, boom less OP.
you exhaust/ignite cheesed him, it's expected you get an early kill, otherwise you end up losing out from not having flash later on.
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On February 25 2012 03:28 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 03:24 TheYango wrote:On February 25 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 25 2012 02:58 Slayer91 wrote:On February 25 2012 02:03 TheYango wrote:On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless. Resists actually scale linearly with themselves regardless of how much you have (twice as much armor is always twice as much EHP). It's just that they scale multiplicatively with HP (as EHP is related to the product of HP and Resists). As far as normal HP/Resists optimization goes: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=11623 Health and resists scale linearly with themselves, multiplicatively with each other. We've been over this so many times why do people keep coming up with the diminishing returns misconception on resists? o.O Cuz its an easy (if incorrect) way to get at the idea that going from 50-100 armor adds more to your ehp than going from 100-150 armor. That is basically diminishing returns as I learned it in Economics- each additional unit gives less of something than the one preceding. They add the exact same amount of EHP. Going from 50-100 armor makes HP give more EHP per point, which is why it's better to balance HP/resists. The amount of EHP added per point of armor is the exact same. ya thats what i meant. I got confused.
Wow, I never realized that EHP scales linearly with armor. It's trivial to check, but it just never crossed my mind, since I only thought about the diminishing percentage reductions.
Thanks for pointing this out.
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On February 25 2012 04:34 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 03:28 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 25 2012 03:24 TheYango wrote:On February 25 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 25 2012 02:58 Slayer91 wrote:On February 25 2012 02:03 TheYango wrote:On February 25 2012 02:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I dont think the amount of health a champion has actually matters in a strict number sense. IE at 200/200 a cho will have 7500 EHP (I think) but at 2870 he has 7175 EHP (again, I think). The health scales linearly, whereas resists are diminishing. Actually hitting the 3k mark is meaningless. Resists actually scale linearly with themselves regardless of how much you have (twice as much armor is always twice as much EHP). It's just that they scale multiplicatively with HP (as EHP is related to the product of HP and Resists). As far as normal HP/Resists optimization goes: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=11623 Health and resists scale linearly with themselves, multiplicatively with each other. We've been over this so many times why do people keep coming up with the diminishing returns misconception on resists? o.O Cuz its an easy (if incorrect) way to get at the idea that going from 50-100 armor adds more to your ehp than going from 100-150 armor. That is basically diminishing returns as I learned it in Economics- each additional unit gives less of something than the one preceding. They add the exact same amount of EHP. Going from 50-100 armor makes HP give more EHP per point, which is why it's better to balance HP/resists. The amount of EHP added per point of armor is the exact same. ya thats what i meant. I got confused. Wow, I never realized that EHP scales linearly with armor. It's trivial to check, but it just never crossed my mind, since I only thought about the diminishing percentage reductions. Thanks for pointing this out.
It seems like resists would have diminishing returns because of the way the numbers look. When you go from like 50 to 100 armor the % of damage mitigated goes something like ~30% to 50%, whereas going from say 150 armor to 200 armor it goes from 60% to 66%. It seems like it's not much of an increase, hence why people think it suffers from diminishing returns. In actuality, however, your EHP doesn't suffer from diminishing returns and each point of resist gives the exact same amount of EHP at all levels of resists. Every point of resist you have increases your EHP by 1%.
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So I have ~2k IP... wanna buy some runes.
What do you guys think of Crit Chance reds? I have most of the standard runes, so now I'm looking to buy more runes for niche roles.
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On February 25 2012 05:51 Jaso wrote:
So I have ~2k IP... wanna buy some runes.
What do you guys think of Crit Chance reds? I have most of the standard runes, so now I'm looking to buy more runes for niche roles.
crit chance runes are cheesy. they're not worth running on anyone really.
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On February 25 2012 05:52 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 05:51 Jaso wrote:
So I have ~2k IP... wanna buy some runes.
What do you guys think of Crit Chance reds? I have most of the standard runes, so now I'm looking to buy more runes for niche roles. crit chance runes are cheesy. they're not worth running on anyone really.
Except arguably on physical junglers with strong punchy power (I use them on Mundo, they might be good on Olaf or Nocturne but I haven't mathed it out at all).
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EPT
