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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 24 2012 23:54 Requizen wrote:
Alright, day 1 of AP focusing was done. I switched between Brand and Kennen. I also did Viktor for a round, but I just don't like his playstyle.
Is it just me, or does Kennen not feel like an AP carry? Short CDs, high CC, etc. With Brand and others, you want do hit and gtfo, but Kennen encourages you to land a couple autos and shuriken, then run in like a retard and ult/W/E. He feels more like a Ryze "mage bruiser" than a caster imo imo, but I kind of like that style.
As a question, when do you find each AP style more useful to a team? As in, if I could pick, say, Ryze (sustained and kinda tanky) or Brand (squishy and bursty), in which situation would one be more appropriate than the other?
I generally pick according to the enemy team or preference (like Swain against a bruiser top, Galio vs LB/Cass, etc.), and I rely more on "tanky/support casters" (Swain, Galio, Viktor) in case we run a double AP comp. I always try to pick something kinda autonomous and with CC but that's personal style, hence for example WotA/Rylai/Zhonya Viktor (I'd call him non-bursty, but empowered E ratio + ult buff... ).
Brand felt fun on paper, found out I didn't like him that much (French VA > English on him tho) because he was too much into the "I die in 3 hits and once I've unloaded a combo I'm kinda useless" type. I don't feel like I can contribute much with those champs and I like those that can also benefit the team more directly (Morgana's shield, snaring that assassin that dived your carry with Swain, etc.).
Bringing more than damage to the table also allows me to retain some usefulness were I to have a bad day and feed or get camped (hence Morg, Viktor, Galio, less so Swain, Gragas).
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I have heard a lot times that if you have a skill that heals you for a percentage of max hp (maokai passive for example) then that will make hp more useful than resistances. This has always confused me and i need to make sure i get it right.
The way i see it, it makes no difference whether you have more hp or more resistances, because your effective hp will still be healed by the same amount. Let me give you and example:
Let's assume you are e champ that has 1000 hp, 0 armor and a skill that heals him for 10% of max hp. You are being attacked by another champ that does 100 dmg per hit.
Case 1: You have +1000 hp from items but 0 armor. You will have 2000 hp and 0 armor. You will die in 20 hits. If you use the skill you gain 200hp which equals 2 extra hits.
Case 2: You have +100 armor but no extra hp (or whatever amount or armor means you take half dmg). You will have 1000 hp and 100 armor but you take 50 dmg from the enemy champ. You die in 20 hits. If you use the skill you gain 100 hp which again equals 2 extra hits.
So the way i see it, it makes no sense to prioritize health on maokai just because of his passive. A balanced build will still give you a better result out of his passive.
Now for me this logic sounds fail-proof, but i heard it in so many places that i need to set it straight once and for all. Am i missing something or is this just a missconception caused by the appeal of "bigger numbers"?
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tru dmg br0
And I have no idea why you would prioritize hp on mao since FH is so good on him. Never built warmog's maokai.
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Its always just better to get a mix of resists and health. I honestly cant think of a single champion where I want a tremendous amount of 1 thing and next to nothing on the other.
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What % HP heals do is effectively give you a stat amplifier on that particular stat (much the way IE incentivizes crit, or Deathcap incentivizes AP). Some people take this too far, but it does drive efficiency equations for defensive stats more in favor of HP than resists because you essentially get more bang for the buck out of the HP you buy than the average bear. A balanced build will still be better than a narrow build, but a character like maokai or mundo does get more from HP than say, WW or Irelia.
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Actually I can't think of any situation where the above would apply.
Mundo - Build HP because it increases your damage, since HP lost is converted into AD.
Volibear - Damage on W scales with HP.
Garen has passive %hp regen, but this isn't meant for tanking, neither is Gragas's passive. Malphite scales much better with armor than HP, since E damage is often prioritized over his passive.
Edit: NAUTILUS. Yes HP is good because I just read his W scales with Bonus HP! :3
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On February 25 2012 01:06 rethos wrote:
I have heard a lot times that if you have a skill that heals you for a percentage of max hp (maokai passive for example) then that will make hp more useful than resistances. This has always confused me and i need to make sure i get it right.
The way i see it, it makes no difference whether you have more hp or more resistances, because your effective hp will still be healed by the same amount. Let me give you and example:
Let's assume you are e champ that has 1000 hp, 0 armor and a skill that heals him for 10% of max hp. You are being attacked by another champ that does 100 dmg per hit.
Case 1: You have +1000 hp from items but 0 armor. You will have 2000 hp and 0 armor. You will die in 20 hits. If you use the skill you gain 200hp which equals 2 extra hits.
Case 2: You have +100 armor but no extra hp (or whatever amount or armor means you take half dmg). You will have 1000 hp and 100 armor but you take 50 dmg from the enemy champ. You die in 20 hits. If you use the skill you gain 100 hp which again equals 2 extra hits.
So the way i see it, it makes no sense to prioritize health on maokai just because of his passive. A balanced build will still give you a better result out of his passive.
Now for me this logic sounds fail-proof, but i heard it in so many places that i need to set it straight once and for all. Am i missing something or is this just a missconception caused by the appeal of "bigger numbers"?
%HP healing doesn't make HP any better, you got that right.
On the other hand, flat HP healing/regeneration/shields makes Armor/MR better, and since flat heals etc are more common (and everyone has flat HP5), generally Armor/MR should be valued (slightly) higher than a pure EHP calculation would suggest.
So the general case favors Armor/MR, but %HP healing shifts it ever so slightly back into the HP direction (actually, does it? I think it does, but certainly not much... would have to think about it in detail). Definitely not something to actually worry about though.
On February 25 2012 01:18 Mogwai wrote:
What % HP heals do is effectively give you a stat amplifier on that particular stat (much the way IE incentivizes crit, or Deathcap incentivizes AP). Some people take this too far, but it does drive efficiency equations for defensive stats more in favor of HP than resists because you essentially get more bang for the buck out of the HP you buy than the average bear. A balanced build will still be better than a narrow build, but a character like maokai or mundo does get more from HP than say, WW or Irelia.
HP isn't actually a stat you care about though. You care about EHP. %HP heals scale with EHP the same way they scale with HP. (ignoring max HP based effects like Atmas obviously)
lol I edited that into the middle of my original post...
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and what happens when you add an extra 1000hp and 100 armor? The extra damage reduction you gain from 100 armor to 200 is a mere 16.6%
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I thought %hp means essentially 10% of your EHP meaning you just get the highest EHP you want. Health gives you more EHP in general probably because resists work better for heals, but it still means you want a mix of both to some extent. Wouldn't make me get warmogs on maokai though.
WW and irelia gain flat health from their abilities which scales with resists only so that's a different story right?
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On February 25 2012 01:18 Mogwai wrote:
What % HP heals do is effectively give you a stat amplifier on that particular stat (much the way IE incentivizes crit, or Deathcap incentivizes AP). Some people take this too far, but it does drive efficiency equations for defensive stats more in favor of HP than resists because you essentially get more bang for the buck out of the HP you buy than the average bear. A balanced build will still be better than a narrow build, but a character like maokai or mundo does get more from HP than say, WW or Irelia.
%hp heals are nothing like ie. the guy making the example is correct, %hp heals make no difference to the values of resistances compared to hp. the "true dmg bro" reply is also wrong, because true damage affects the values of resistances vs pure hp it has nothing to do with how much you will be healing during the fight.
ie increasing crit dmg doesnt really have a defensive stat equivalent.
On February 25 2012 01:22 Slayer91 wrote:
I thought %hp means essentially 10% of your EHP meaning you just get the highest EHP you want. Health gives you more EHP in general probably because resists work better for heals, but it still means you want a mix of both to some extent. Wouldn't make me get warmogs on maokai though.
WW and irelia gain flat health from their abilities which scales with resists only so that's a different story right?
if we are going to talk about flat dmg abilities this is gonna get really complicated. i think its best to stick to general cases.
On February 25 2012 01:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Its always just better to get a mix of resists and health. I honestly cant think of a single champion where I want a tremendous amount of 1 thing and next to nothing on the other.
well if your an ad, health is the superior stat because then you buy a atmas and it becomes damage.
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On February 25 2012 01:22 midnight.tokyo wrote:
and what happens when you add an extra 1000hp and 100 armor? The extra damage reduction you gain from 100 armor to 200 is a mere 16.6%
That's a lot, but to put it in another persective; the difference between 98% damage reduction and 99% damage reduction is only 1%, but you're taking twice as much damage with the former.
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On February 25 2012 01:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Its always just better to get a mix of resists and health. I honestly cant think of a single champion where I want a tremendous amount of 1 thing and next to nothing on the other.
Irrelevant to the discussion but shyvana gets enough resists with your core items to just stack health ( wriggle / winds end . Double warmog/fmallet/atma for 6k hp with baron and pot = ad carry singed :D
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On February 25 2012 01:27 TheBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 01:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Its always just better to get a mix of resists and health. I honestly cant think of a single champion where I want a tremendous amount of 1 thing and next to nothing on the other. Irrelevant to the discussion but shyvana gets enough resists with your core items to just stack health ( wriggle / winds end . Double warmog/fmallet/atma for 6k hp with baron and pot = ad carry singed :D
You still end up building even resists early THEN going into health/damage. Free resists does mean that you can err more on the side of health, but on bruisers you typically get resists from the items you are buying anyway (wits/wriggles), so that is kind of already the case.
In general my first goal when jungling is to get to ~100 100 for armor and mr with a bit of health from a HOG/kindlegem. I find that core tends to be a good starting point, and from there I can branch more either of the 3 directions as the situation calls for it. Luckily enough, a lot of the jungles I like playing love going for wriggles and wits.
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Ok, so I think I was being a derp about this % HP thing earlier but something's still not sitting right with me about it... I'm on no sleep though, so I'm gonna stop thinking about it until I get some sleep.
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United States47024 Posts
Napkin math for % HP heals, and how they affect EHP optimization:
So, essentially, the same equations used for any healer's EHP calculations are the same. Pulling from the Warwick thread:
EHP = K * (HP + Healing) * Resists -- that is, your EHP is related to the product of your HP and healing and your resists-fairly straightforward
Healing = C * EHP -- again straightforward, this is simply putting an equation to "the longer you live, the more healing you get to do".
Except the one difference is that the healing rate, C, is proportional to HP:
Healing = D * HP * EHP
Putting the two equations together, we get:
EHP = K * HP * Resists/(1- K * D * HP * Resists)
Which means that EHP scales asymptotically to infinity the way that any healer does, but is maximized the same way that you maximize EHP in the non-healer case--by balancing HP and Resists. It doesn't even skew the equation toward buying more HP. It changes the result of the optimization, but not the optimal parameter values.
Put simply, %-HP healers maximize their EHP buy balancing their resists and HP as though they didn't have any healing, but they benefit from the +EHP stats as though they were normal healers.
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On February 25 2012 01:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
Its always just better to get a mix of resists and health. I honestly cant think of a single champion where I want a tremendous amount of 1 thing and next to nothing on the other.
Low hanging fruit: Cho'gath with his 2870 feasted health at 18. Doesn't take more that incidental health gain (21 defense, even!) to push him over 3k, where he can just build 200/200 and be nearly invincible. Rammus is pretty similar the other way, though defensive stats are more useful to him than HP is to Cho'gath due to DBC uptime and his passive. (e: Also Leona with her W).
On a similar but not identical note, a couple of champions have very high armor OR MR so only really need health and the other - Taric is the big one here, but Xerath technically counts on the off chance you need to buy defensive items on him, as does Poppy with her 125 natural armor at 18.
Overall, though, there's maybe half a dozen champions where it's really a good idea to ignore any of the defensive stats when tanking out, and they all have extraordinarily good reasons for doing so.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 25 2012 01:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
Whats k?
K and D are just constants. We don't actually care what they are because they don't really affect the optimization. I'm not getting any of the actual numbers here more than just building the general model, and showing that it's optimized in the same way you optimize EHP for the non-healer case.
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On February 25 2012 01:45 Mogwai wrote:
Ok, so I think I was being a derp about this % HP thing earlier but something's still not sitting right with me about it... I'm on no sleep though, so I'm gonna stop thinking about it until I get some sleep.
It's just the opposite of Vayne's passive. So whatever you think about that, just think it again.
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On February 25 2012 01:45 Mogwai wrote:
Ok, so I think I was being a derp about this % HP thing earlier but something's still not sitting right with me about it... I'm on no sleep though, so I'm gonna stop thinking about it until I get some sleep.
rethos got it right the first time I think
10% heal, 100 dmg
With 2000 HP, 0 Armor = 2000 EHP
200 HP returned, 200 EHP returned
With 1000 HP, 100 Armor = 1000 +100% = 2000 EHP
100 HP returned, 100 +100% = 200 EHP returned
It all looks good until you realise 1000 HP costs more then 100 armor though
Edit: The above subsequently also goes out the door when arpen comes into play
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EPT
