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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 23 2012 23:41 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:38 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 23 2012 23:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful. Neither are even a threat until Ryze has Tear and Cata and if they're even slightly scary he can go straight negatron cloak without it affecting his build. Talk about early weak laners.
Ryze with blue could give a crap about pushers. Cass and Brand fair well but they don't outright crush him in lane. In no world do morg and grag beat Ryze. Sion is iffy I haven't seen enough of the matchup, but most of what I see is Sion's beating on creeps to get them into one shot with shield range and, well, Ryze w outranges Sion stun so he can just unload and pop the shield.
You didn't even list champs that I think actually give him huge problems besides Cassio (Xerath, Ziggs and Anivia with blue) Is this the point where I facepalm and need to explain to you that Xerath, Ziggs, and Anivia all fit into the categories that I listed? And its not really an "I think kass and LB beat ryze." Assassins beat Ryze. The most common counterpick for Jiji when an enemy picks Ryze against CLG is Viegar. And you got it backwards. It isnt the items Ryze has that scares him, its at what point do they hit level 6 and just KILL you. You're talking about 2.3k worth of gold investment, plus another 350 gold for boots, and Im assuming another 300 in wards and pots. That puts you at just under 3k gold as your needed CORE on Ryze. At what point are you getting a Negatron and not just ceding that the fact you just set yourself back 740 gold was, uuuuh, KIND OF REALIZING THEY COUNTER YOU. And its good to know that early laning phase means you get blue at level 1 to deal with heavy pushers. Come back at 7:20 when you will ACTUALLY get a blue buff. Which, last I checked, WAS NOT EARLY LANING. You so viciously skirted everything I said that I don't know if I should continue. Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1. My point was, all of these "pushers" don't push lane that hard early on, and if they go all out to do it they run out of mana fast and are easy ganks (being an easy gank against even level 2 ryze is dangerous). You just argued that every common AP mid in the game besides like Karthus straight up beats Ryze in lane when that's not true at all.
K we gonna play a little game. Its a bit advanced, and it might be too complex for you, but I am going to try to introduce the idea of a "power curve."
A "power curve" is how strong a champ is relative to time in the game, usually measured in level, itemization, or both.
Kog'Maw has a very high power curve. He starts off very weak but as the game goes on he turns into one of the strongest characters in the game. Leblanc has a flatter power curve. She starts off very strong, but as the game goes on she doesnt gain as much power because the nature of the game changes and it becomes harder for her to do her thing.
Now, when we apply the concept of a "power curve" to Ryze, something shocking (to you, not anyone who actually knows how this game works) happens. We begin to see that, yes, when compared to other champions in the same role, he is in fact WEAKER than them at early levels because of his mana and damage constraints, as well as his lack of AOE. This continues to level 4-5, when most pushers gain the ability to wipe the wave with their clear. He still hasnt gained enough damage or mana regen to reliably harass them or clear the wave effectivly. Come level 6, he is STILL behind on the "power curve" because he doesnt gain a whole lot from his ultimate when it comes to helping his laning, and CERTAINLY not as much as Viegar, Kass, Cass, Annie, Gragas, Xerath, Brand, Vlad, and, well, pretty much every other mage. But where Ryze really picks up ground on the "power curve" is when he starts to get items (which, as I have already pointed out, are pretty damn expensive.) That means that you start to pick up steam LATER than most ap carries, however due to the nature of Ryze's "power curve" he becomes stronger the longer the game goes and has a "power curve" that exceeds most other mids as the game goes on.
But no, Ryze is a very weak early laner. Its pretty much well documented by everyone who isnt you.
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On February 23 2012 23:59 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
T_D: You seriously said that Veigar counters Ryze? According to Jiji. Viegar is the champ he asks for if the enemy has Ryze. Which makes sense if you think about it. You dont even need the ap boost on your ult to do a lot of damage (he can pretty much kill most mids at level 6, and you're gonna have about 50-60 ap tops then). Plus Viegar is safe early because Ryze has no way to actually punish him.
Well Ryze builds Banshee Veil by default unlike other casters and the AP bonus is still useful for oneshotting. Ryze also builds Mercs by default.. Veigar just makes no sense to me.
In that MU though in my opinion Ryze should start harrassing from lvl 3 onward and should win the trades. Maybe 6's a different story but Veigar would need like full mana.. hard to believe.
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On February 23 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
T_D: You seriously said that Veigar counters Ryze?
And LB/Kassadin as well.
Kassadin especially is just wonderful since Ryze is maybe the hardest counter to kassadin mid among standard APs.
PS : Ryze isn't a weak early laner at all with 0/21/9 and MR quints... He pretty much outtrade anybody after his first back and isn't scared before lvl6 at all with all the def spec. He just can't kill by himself, that's it, but you can't bully him around.
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On February 23 2012 23:59 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
T_D: You seriously said that Veigar counters Ryze? According to Jiji. Viegar is the champ he asks for if the enemy has Ryze. Which makes sense if you think about it. You dont even need the ap boost on your ult to do a lot of damage (he can pretty much kill most mids at level 6, and you're gonna have about 50-60 ap tops then). Plus Viegar is safe early because Ryze has no way to actually punish him.
Veigar probably only is a good pick vs Ryze for the very best players because normally it seems to me that Veigar just gets smashed when they go up against a similar skilled opponent. The longer the laning phase goes the worse his exchanges get.
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On February 23 2012 22:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
Few notes cuz I was asleep
- If you want to learn to play ap mid, pick up annie. She is all around good, but pretty much every other mage does at least 1 thing better than she does. You establish a good baseline from which you can branch off into other mage picks. Its the same reason I always suggest people learn to jungle WW and Ad carry as Ashe. They are fine on their own, arent terrible, but set good baselines for the class from which point you can decide which direction you want to go in.
I dunno, I feel like I have some good basics, but I just don't think the playstyle fits me. I don't like being the squishy, don't go in unless there's an opening type, I like running in and brawling whenever it suits me, which is why I play a lot of tops and jungles. I just need to get better at filling more roles.
As my APs, I play Viktor, Brand, and TF.
TF, I think I'm just bad at pulling the right cards at the right time, but he also feels like he gets harassed easily since his only long range ability is his Q. For instance, I laned against Ziggs last night and he could chunk me without me being able to get any damage back on him.
As for Viktor and Brand, I guess I just don't like how CD reliant they are. I love hitting with a full combo and wrecking someone, but you miss a couple shots, or you do damage but don't kill them, and suddenly you're worthless and have to run, lest your squishy ass gets killed. Viktor has a safer escape, sure, but it still feels weak.
I just have trouble knowing when to go in, when to retreat, and when to poke and who I can poke against safely.
I guess I also have Kennen and Ryze, but I'm holding off on Ryze until I get a mana rune page, and I don't play Kennen a whole lot outside of bot games. I've got Lux too, but haven't played her in months.
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Edit to not double post:
I don't smartcast. I mean, I do with Shift occasionally, but I don't have it set as an option. Should I do this ASAP?
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Why can't yorik get a chalice too and go turn the lane into a farm fest? What about every bodies' favorite cigar smoking, tobbacco chewing crocodile Redneckton? Why can't he just show up to lane at level one with boots and pots and make ww his bitch?
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On February 24 2012 00:11 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
T_D: You seriously said that Veigar counters Ryze? And LB/Kassadin as well. Kassadin especially is just wonderful since Ryze is maybe the hardest counter to kassadin mid among standard APs. PS : Ryze isn't a weak early laner at all with 0/21/9 and MR quints... He pretty much outtrade anybody after his first back and isn't scared before lvl6 at all with all the def spec. He just can't kill by himself, that's it, but you can't bully him around.
hmm, I dun know about "hardest counter" simply becuase I'm not entirely sure that Ryze counters Kass as much as Ryze is the only ap mid who doesnt mind having to itemize early mr against Kass. But you probably have a point there. I would think the matchup there basically comes down to wether or not Ryze can abuse Kass hard enough pre 6, but again, 70 mana q's from Ryze kind of dry up your mana pool quite fast before you have a tear.
And LB can shit all over Ryze. Not even close.
Jiji is the one who likes Viegar vs Ryze. I dun care if you (wrongly) think I'm wrong about the other stuff, but dont ya kind of have to take Jiji at his word?
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On February 24 2012 00:17 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
Few notes cuz I was asleep
- If you want to learn to play ap mid, pick up annie. She is all around good, but pretty much every other mage does at least 1 thing better than she does. You establish a good baseline from which you can branch off into other mage picks. Its the same reason I always suggest people learn to jungle WW and Ad carry as Ashe. They are fine on their own, arent terrible, but set good baselines for the class from which point you can decide which direction you want to go in.
I don't smartcast. I mean, I do with Shift occasionally, but I don't have it set as an option. Should I do this ASAP?
If you want to play APs, yes. It's just straight up better except for some very few skills which are awkward with smartcastr (Rumble ult comes to mind I think)
Just set everything to smartcast and don't think about it anymore. It'll take some time to get used to but once you've done you're gonna wonder how you could play without smartcast.
On February 24 2012 00:26 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:11 mr_tolkien wrote:On February 23 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
T_D: You seriously said that Veigar counters Ryze? And LB/Kassadin as well. Kassadin especially is just wonderful since Ryze is maybe the hardest counter to kassadin mid among standard APs. PS : Ryze isn't a weak early laner at all with 0/21/9 and MR quints... He pretty much outtrade anybody after his first back and isn't scared before lvl6 at all with all the def spec. He just can't kill by himself, that's it, but you can't bully him around. hmm, I dun know about "hardest counter" simply becuase I'm not entirely sure that Ryze counters Kass as much as Ryze is the only ap mid who doesnt mind having to itemize early mr against Kass. But you probably have a point there. I would think the matchup there basically comes down to wether or not Ryze can abuse Kass hard enough pre 6, but again, 70 mana q's from Ryze kind of dry up your mana pool quite fast before you have a tear.
I run flat manareg yellows on Ryze and it's still impossible to really abuse Kass enough to win the lane early. Honestly what happens in this matchup IMO is that they both can't kill each other pre-6 and then they both turn into gigantic assholes post-6 but they can't really kill each other either. So what it comes down to who becomes a bigger asshole in teamfights. Which is pretty hard to say since they are both incredibly annoying to play against.
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Edit to not double post:
I don't smartcast. I mean, I do with Shift occasionally, but I don't have it set as an option. Should I do this ASAP?
Depends on the mage and spell, but generally yes (and you definitely want to learn it) If you have a spammable skill that you need to get out quickly, like Cassiopeia's Twin Fang, then you definitely want smartcast on it. It's can be detrimental if you don't intimately know the range/AOE on your spells, or if you need to aim precisely.
For example, on Ryze... how on earth did you even play him without Smartcast? I know Lux's skill-ranges/areas well enough to make do without the range indicator (although I have her Laser on 'T' for regular cast if I think I need to aim), but other people might want it on Light Binding or something. A Veigar probably would want his stun on normal cast for precision.
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On February 24 2012 00:30 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +
Edit to not double post:
I don't smartcast. I mean, I do with Shift occasionally, but I don't have it set as an option. Should I do this ASAP?
Depends on the mage and spell, but generally yes (and you definitely want to learn it) If you have a spammable skill that you need to get out quickly, like Cassiopeia's Twin Fang, then you definitely want smartcast on it. It's can be detrimental if you don't intimately know the range/AOE on your spells, or if you need to aim precisely. For example, on Ryze... how on earth did you even play him without Smartcast? I know Lux's skill-ranges/areas well enough to make do without the range indicator (although I have her Laser on 'T' for regular cast if I think I need to aim), but other people might want it on Light Binding or something. A Veigar probably would want his stun on normal cast for precision.
As for Ryze, well, I just got really used to QclickWclickQclickEclickQclick as fast as possible. Smartcast is probably easier lol.
I've never checked, can you set it differently for each champ? I don't know if I'd smartcast on a couple (probably Ez to line up his ult correctly). Also, I saw something a while ago about holding down a smartcast key to see the range? Is this normal now, or do you still need to go into the settings file and change something?
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Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up.
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No, you need to change it each time you change champions. Annoying, but it doesn't take too long.
Smart Cast on Release is in More Options as a check-box.
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I just hate the support meta in normals. It's fine in ranked but I would really like to play totally random champion combinations in normals without instantly losing the lane and tower.
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On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up.
Jiji runs without meditation and manareg runes. I'd like to know how the hell he does it because I need meditation and flat reg runes just so I don't get totally pushed into oblivion early on /or I can at least try to trade if someone goes really agressive on me.
On February 24 2012 00:38 epoc wrote:
I just hate the support meta in normals. It's fine in ranked but I would really like to play totally random champion combinations in normals without instantly losing the lane and tower.
When you need to 'stick to the meta' to not loose in normalgames you're doing something wrong
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On February 24 2012 00:38 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up. Jiji runs without meditation and manareg runes. I'd like to know how the hell he does it because I need meditation and flat reg runes just so I don't get totally pushed into oblivion early on /or I can at least try to trade if someone goes really agressive on me. Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:38 epoc wrote:
I just hate the support meta in normals. It's fine in ranked but I would really like to play totally random champion combinations in normals without instantly losing the lane and tower. When you need to 'stick to the meta' to not loose in normalgames you're doing something wrong
Not really. I mean the support meta is used because its the strongest. It isnt any wonder to lose to the strongest thing
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What's wrong with using shift to smart cast? It allows you to pick and choose when you want to smart cast, and you don't have to change the settings when changing champs.
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On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up.
Starting sapphire crystal I got 538 mana at lvl 1 and around 600 at lvl 2, I also got the mp5 mastery.
I lasthit with Q at lvl 1-2 the ones I can't auto because of the aspd, and depending on the matchup I start harrassing at lvl 3. Usually my mana's at full and it's nearly 700 mana, and the standard harassing combo of QWQ is extremely easy to do many many times. Against Veigar with ap/lvl blues, for instance, you can drop a third of his hp with that and can do it multiple times, straight from lvl 3. He can't trade vs that.
I even run mana/lvl runes, if you run flat mana runes you should be far more powerful.
Yeah if you start boots you reduce 200 mana from that but either way it should be enough to harrass from lvl 3. If not, at least from lvl 5 when imo is Ryze's primetime to harrass(before the opponent has ult)
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On February 24 2012 00:56 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up. Starting sapphire crystal I got 538 mana at lvl 1 and around 600 at lvl 2, I also got the mp5 mastery. I lasthit with Q at lvl 1-2 the ones I can't auto because of the aspd, and depending on the matchup I start harrassing at lvl 3. Usually my mana's at full and it's nearly 700 mana, and the standard harassing combo of QWQ is extremely easy to do many many times. Against Veigar with ap/lvl blues, for instance, you can drop a third of his hp with that and can do it multiple times, straight from lvl 3. He can't trade vs that. I even run mana/lvl runes, if you run flat mana runes you should be far more powerful. Yeah if you start boots you reduce 200 mana from that but either way it should be enough to harrass from lvl 3. If not, at least from lvl 5 when imo is Ryze's primetime to harrass(before the opponent has ult)
If you're going in close enough to land a W you're also going to draw creep aggro
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On February 24 2012 00:56 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up. Starting sapphire crystal
Really? REALLY?
No boots is asking to get dumped on.
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On February 24 2012 00:01 ManyCookies wrote:
Lux's skillshots aren't' that hard. You'd be surprised how predictable people are when it comes to evasion. And a miss usually isn't punishing with Lux's range.
Fun fact, Lux's burst is comparable to LeBlanc's at level 6-7 if you hit a passive proc or two. Light Binding, throw out an AA then immediately use E, Laser, AA and detonate E at the same time. Misses a (guaranteed) passive proc, but comes out quite fast and guarantees a laser hit. 650 (+2.1 /AP). Leblanc is like 600 + 3/AP if you hit and proc everything.
Her real problem is her mana issues. Even with Yellow/Blue mana regen runes and a doran's or two, you still need to be somewhat conservative with your E harass. You need blue buff to really exploit how silly her harass is.
The hardest part about Lux is that your own team tends to want to dodge your shield skillshot because they're conditioned to dodge things that fly at them. 
On an aside, yes, Lux has issues with mana from spam. Chu8 runs Mana Regen Yellows because of this on his Lux Page.
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EPT
