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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 24 2012 01:33 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
"Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful"
"Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1"
You started this game, not me.
And ya, sorry Shik, I just saw "starting saphire crystal" and stopped there. Even in matchups where you can get away without boots cuz the lane opponent is weaker boots are just all around a better option because they let you do more things. Its a lot easier to just accept the fact that you arent gonna be able to do a whole lot before the first blue buff than to try to gimp yourself hard in one area to try to do a tiny of extra damage. You can say kass and LB counter ryzes early game, but surely there are better champs for that? LB and Kass get owned hard in teamfights by ryze because his prison basically screws over their escape mechanism and he's pretty tanky if he manages to get any kind of farm so they can't combo him effectively. I can understand him having trouble early game, but that's true on a lot of ryze match ups. I mean, it's pretty easy to punish a super agressive kass/lb in lane with jungle ganks with a ryze prison as well. Yar, late game ryze is better. But the point of my argument was that there are a lot of champs that screw Ryze over early on, and those are 2 of them. But as you say, Ryze has a lot of bad matchups early on so there are more effective late game choices to pick against him. Maybe you two just have different definitions of a weak early laner? TwoTone: Weak = Gets ganked easily early in lane TwoDown: Weak = Gets pushed to tower easily and has to farm there
I don't deny that Ryze is weak very early, I just think that weakness fades quickly and only a handful of champs actually counter him after that. Also that his weakness against the entire list of pushers is made up for by pushers being really susceptible to ganks, of which Ryze is one of the best facilitators.
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On February 24 2012 01:33 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
"Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful"
"Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1"
You started this game, not me.
And ya, sorry Shik, I just saw "starting saphire crystal" and stopped there. Even in matchups where you can get away without boots cuz the lane opponent is weaker boots are just all around a better option because they let you do more things. Its a lot easier to just accept the fact that you arent gonna be able to do a whole lot before the first blue buff than to try to gimp yourself hard in one area to try to do a tiny of extra damage. You can say kass and LB counter ryzes early game, but surely there are better champs for that? LB and Kass get owned hard in teamfights by ryze because his prison basically screws over their escape mechanism and he's pretty tanky if he manages to get any kind of farm so they can't combo him effectively. I can understand him having trouble early game, but that's true on a lot of ryze match ups. I mean, it's pretty easy to punish a super agressive kass/lb in lane with jungle ganks with a ryze prison as well. Yar, late game ryze is better. But the point of my argument was that there are a lot of champs that screw Ryze over early on, and those are 2 of them. But as you say, Ryze has a lot of bad matchups early on so there are more effective late game choices to pick against him. Maybe you two just have different definitions of a weak early laner? TwoTone: Weak = Gets ganked easily early in lane TwoDown: Weak = Gets pushed to tower easily and has to farm there
By the way. If you're against a person who pushes you to the tower early on, sapphire crystal tends to be the way to go. Also Ryze doesn't really mind lasthitting at tower as it's quite easy with him.
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On February 24 2012 01:32 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:24 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 spinesheath wrote:On February 24 2012 01:15 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 01:00 Woony wrote:On February 24 2012 00:56 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up. Starting sapphire crystal I got 538 mana at lvl 1 and around 600 at lvl 2, I also got the mp5 mastery. I lasthit with Q at lvl 1-2 the ones I can't auto because of the aspd, and depending on the matchup I start harrassing at lvl 3. Usually my mana's at full and it's nearly 700 mana, and the standard harassing combo of QWQ is extremely easy to do many many times. Against Veigar with ap/lvl blues, for instance, you can drop a third of his hp with that and can do it multiple times, straight from lvl 3. He can't trade vs that. I even run mana/lvl runes, if you run flat mana runes you should be far more powerful. Yeah if you start boots you reduce 200 mana from that but either way it should be enough to harrass from lvl 3. If not, at least from lvl 5 when imo is Ryze's primetime to harrass(before the opponent has ult) If you're going in close enough to land a W you're also going to draw creep aggro Doesn't matter as it's just a second. Most people can't outrange Q either, Veigar included so a free hit is not a good thing to get off. Wait, what? 1) Ryze's spells don't draw Minion aggro. 2) Drawing minion aggro "for just a second" potentially costs you ~60 HP, which does matter at early levels. 3) A free hit is not a good thing to get off? Huh? I fixed that typo 4 minutes before your quote? No idea about them drawing minion aggro, but as he said so I assumed they did o_O I've never had issues with it and it's never made me lose a ton of hp so I doubt it's a big deal you know. Only autoattacks and spells that count as autoattacks (<=> those which apply on-hit effects) draw minion aggro.
the thing is if you want to hit him with W you have to walk in deep enough to draw aggro
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On February 24 2012 01:33 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
"Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful"
"Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1"
You started this game, not me.
And ya, sorry Shik, I just saw "starting saphire crystal" and stopped there. Even in matchups where you can get away without boots cuz the lane opponent is weaker boots are just all around a better option because they let you do more things. Its a lot easier to just accept the fact that you arent gonna be able to do a whole lot before the first blue buff than to try to gimp yourself hard in one area to try to do a tiny of extra damage. You can say kass and LB counter ryzes early game, but surely there are better champs for that? LB and Kass get owned hard in teamfights by ryze because his prison basically screws over their escape mechanism and he's pretty tanky if he manages to get any kind of farm so they can't combo him effectively. I can understand him having trouble early game, but that's true on a lot of ryze match ups. I mean, it's pretty easy to punish a super agressive kass/lb in lane with jungle ganks with a ryze prison as well. Yar, late game ryze is better. But the point of my argument was that there are a lot of champs that screw Ryze over early on, and those are 2 of them. But as you say, Ryze has a lot of bad matchups early on so there are more effective late game choices to pick against him. Maybe you two just have different definitions of a weak early laner? TwoTone: Weak = Gets ganked easily early in lane TwoDown: Weak = Gets pushed to tower easily and has to farm there
My understanding of what TwoTone was saying was more
Two_DoWn- Weak=Pushed on, Loses trades early in the lane
TwoTone= Not weak.
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On February 24 2012 01:34 daemir wrote:
If you can waltz up to a veigar to harass him when you open crystal (310 movespeed) vs veigar with boots (365 movespeed) then something ain't right.
And jungler comes to say high to your 310 movespeed :\
If you're level 2 you can just only harass with your q and w jungle ganks. I mean you don't chase them to the ends of the earth you just get them when they're trying to last hit with their autos.
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On February 24 2012 01:35 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:33 BlueSpace wrote:On February 24 2012 01:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
"Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful"
"Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1"
You started this game, not me.
And ya, sorry Shik, I just saw "starting saphire crystal" and stopped there. Even in matchups where you can get away without boots cuz the lane opponent is weaker boots are just all around a better option because they let you do more things. Its a lot easier to just accept the fact that you arent gonna be able to do a whole lot before the first blue buff than to try to gimp yourself hard in one area to try to do a tiny of extra damage. You can say kass and LB counter ryzes early game, but surely there are better champs for that? LB and Kass get owned hard in teamfights by ryze because his prison basically screws over their escape mechanism and he's pretty tanky if he manages to get any kind of farm so they can't combo him effectively. I can understand him having trouble early game, but that's true on a lot of ryze match ups. I mean, it's pretty easy to punish a super agressive kass/lb in lane with jungle ganks with a ryze prison as well. Yar, late game ryze is better. But the point of my argument was that there are a lot of champs that screw Ryze over early on, and those are 2 of them. But as you say, Ryze has a lot of bad matchups early on so there are more effective late game choices to pick against him. Maybe you two just have different definitions of a weak early laner? TwoTone: Weak = Gets ganked easily early in lane TwoDown: Weak = Gets pushed to tower easily and has to farm there My understanding of what TwoTone was saying was more Two_DoWn- Weak=Pushed on, Loses trades early in the lane TwoTone= Not weak.
On February 24 2012 01:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I don't deny that Ryze is weak very early, I just think that weakness fades quickly and only a handful of champs actually counter him after that. Also that his weakness against the entire list of pushers is made up for by pushers being really susceptible to ganks, of which Ryze is one of the best facilitators.
The difference is not what we think of Ryze, but what we think a counter is. I don't think someone losing at level 1-3 is a real counter if they drastically fall behind after that. I think Xerath and Cassio are counters because their strength persists for more than 3 or 4 levels against ryze, you think anyone that gives him a little trouble at the start is a counter.
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On February 24 2012 01:34 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:32 spinesheath wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 spinesheath wrote:On February 24 2012 01:15 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 01:00 Woony wrote:On February 24 2012 00:56 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up. Starting sapphire crystal I got 538 mana at lvl 1 and around 600 at lvl 2, I also got the mp5 mastery. I lasthit with Q at lvl 1-2 the ones I can't auto because of the aspd, and depending on the matchup I start harrassing at lvl 3. Usually my mana's at full and it's nearly 700 mana, and the standard harassing combo of QWQ is extremely easy to do many many times. Against Veigar with ap/lvl blues, for instance, you can drop a third of his hp with that and can do it multiple times, straight from lvl 3. He can't trade vs that. I even run mana/lvl runes, if you run flat mana runes you should be far more powerful. Yeah if you start boots you reduce 200 mana from that but either way it should be enough to harrass from lvl 3. If not, at least from lvl 5 when imo is Ryze's primetime to harrass(before the opponent has ult) If you're going in close enough to land a W you're also going to draw creep aggro Doesn't matter as it's just a second. Most people can't outrange Q either, Veigar included so a free hit is not a good thing to get off. Wait, what? 1) Ryze's spells don't draw Minion aggro. 2) Drawing minion aggro "for just a second" potentially costs you ~60 HP, which does matter at early levels. 3) A free hit is not a good thing to get off? Huh? I fixed that typo 4 minutes before your quote? No idea about them drawing minion aggro, but as he said so I assumed they did o_O I've never had issues with it and it's never made me lose a ton of hp so I doubt it's a big deal you know. Only autoattacks and spells that count as autoattacks (<=> those which apply on-hit effects) draw minion aggro. the thing is if you want to hit him with W you have to walk in deep enough to draw aggro
You don't draw aggro if the minions are attacking each other. Numerous situations arise. Or do you think that the opponent is just going to not kill any of the ranged creeps? After lvl 4 if they get in range of a snare, you get off a QW -> walk back a bit -> EQ combo and it's pretty difficult to punish effectively for most champions.
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On February 24 2012 01:34 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:32 spinesheath wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 spinesheath wrote:On February 24 2012 01:15 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 01:00 Woony wrote:On February 24 2012 00:56 Shikyo wrote:On February 24 2012 00:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ya woony thats basically what I was assuming. Ryze's q is just SO MUCH FING MANA early on. Its really hard to trade with anyone because you just dont have enough of a mana pool or regen to keep it up. Starting sapphire crystal I got 538 mana at lvl 1 and around 600 at lvl 2, I also got the mp5 mastery. I lasthit with Q at lvl 1-2 the ones I can't auto because of the aspd, and depending on the matchup I start harrassing at lvl 3. Usually my mana's at full and it's nearly 700 mana, and the standard harassing combo of QWQ is extremely easy to do many many times. Against Veigar with ap/lvl blues, for instance, you can drop a third of his hp with that and can do it multiple times, straight from lvl 3. He can't trade vs that. I even run mana/lvl runes, if you run flat mana runes you should be far more powerful. Yeah if you start boots you reduce 200 mana from that but either way it should be enough to harrass from lvl 3. If not, at least from lvl 5 when imo is Ryze's primetime to harrass(before the opponent has ult) If you're going in close enough to land a W you're also going to draw creep aggro Doesn't matter as it's just a second. Most people can't outrange Q either, Veigar included so a free hit is not a good thing to get off. Wait, what? 1) Ryze's spells don't draw Minion aggro. 2) Drawing minion aggro "for just a second" potentially costs you ~60 HP, which does matter at early levels. 3) A free hit is not a good thing to get off? Huh? I fixed that typo 4 minutes before your quote? No idea about them drawing minion aggro, but as he said so I assumed they did o_O I've never had issues with it and it's never made me lose a ton of hp so I doubt it's a big deal you know. Only autoattacks and spells that count as autoattacks (<=> those which apply on-hit effects) draw minion aggro. the thing is if you want to hit him with W you have to walk in deep enough to draw aggro
Only if you walk in before the enemy minions have aquired targets. If the minions already are hacking away at each other and all you do is cast spells, you will NOT draw aggro. Therefore, if you draw aggro while harrassing as Ryze, you are doing it wrong.
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On February 24 2012 01:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:35 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:33 BlueSpace wrote:On February 24 2012 01:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
"Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful"
"Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1"
You started this game, not me.
And ya, sorry Shik, I just saw "starting saphire crystal" and stopped there. Even in matchups where you can get away without boots cuz the lane opponent is weaker boots are just all around a better option because they let you do more things. Its a lot easier to just accept the fact that you arent gonna be able to do a whole lot before the first blue buff than to try to gimp yourself hard in one area to try to do a tiny of extra damage. You can say kass and LB counter ryzes early game, but surely there are better champs for that? LB and Kass get owned hard in teamfights by ryze because his prison basically screws over their escape mechanism and he's pretty tanky if he manages to get any kind of farm so they can't combo him effectively. I can understand him having trouble early game, but that's true on a lot of ryze match ups. I mean, it's pretty easy to punish a super agressive kass/lb in lane with jungle ganks with a ryze prison as well. Yar, late game ryze is better. But the point of my argument was that there are a lot of champs that screw Ryze over early on, and those are 2 of them. But as you say, Ryze has a lot of bad matchups early on so there are more effective late game choices to pick against him. Maybe you two just have different definitions of a weak early laner? TwoTone: Weak = Gets ganked easily early in lane TwoDown: Weak = Gets pushed to tower easily and has to farm there My understanding of what TwoTone was saying was more Two_DoWn- Weak=Pushed on, Loses trades early in the lane TwoTone= Not weak. Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I don't deny that Ryze is weak very early, I just think that weakness fades quickly and only a handful of champs actually counter him after that. Also that his weakness against the entire list of pushers is made up for by pushers being really susceptible to ganks, of which Ryze is one of the best facilitators. The difference is not what we think of Ryze, but what we think a counter is. I don't think someone losing at level 1-3 is a real counter if they drastically fall behind after that. I think Xerath and Cassio are counters because their strength persists for more than 3 or 4 levels against ryze, you think anyone that gives him a little trouble at the start is a counter.
I think you overestimate Ryze's abilities to do anything before getting the first blue and having some items. A good player will punish the shit out of you before that first blue. It isnt a counter so much as Ryze is just really freakin weak up till that blue and buy, which is a lot later than levels 1-3.
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You counter someone in lane with these scenarios
1) Deny them cs/gold super hard and snowball the lane
2) Tie lane but vastly outscale later
3) Bully him but then spend that advantage elsewhere on the map
Not too many champions can honestly accomplish the first, even fewer can accomplish the second, but the last one, if done well, can be done on a consistent enough basis to be considered a "counter" to ryze.
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On February 24 2012 01:43 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 24 2012 01:35 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:33 BlueSpace wrote:On February 24 2012 01:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
"Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful"
"Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1"
You started this game, not me.
And ya, sorry Shik, I just saw "starting saphire crystal" and stopped there. Even in matchups where you can get away without boots cuz the lane opponent is weaker boots are just all around a better option because they let you do more things. Its a lot easier to just accept the fact that you arent gonna be able to do a whole lot before the first blue buff than to try to gimp yourself hard in one area to try to do a tiny of extra damage. You can say kass and LB counter ryzes early game, but surely there are better champs for that? LB and Kass get owned hard in teamfights by ryze because his prison basically screws over their escape mechanism and he's pretty tanky if he manages to get any kind of farm so they can't combo him effectively. I can understand him having trouble early game, but that's true on a lot of ryze match ups. I mean, it's pretty easy to punish a super agressive kass/lb in lane with jungle ganks with a ryze prison as well. Yar, late game ryze is better. But the point of my argument was that there are a lot of champs that screw Ryze over early on, and those are 2 of them. But as you say, Ryze has a lot of bad matchups early on so there are more effective late game choices to pick against him. Maybe you two just have different definitions of a weak early laner? TwoTone: Weak = Gets ganked easily early in lane TwoDown: Weak = Gets pushed to tower easily and has to farm there My understanding of what TwoTone was saying was more Two_DoWn- Weak=Pushed on, Loses trades early in the lane TwoTone= Not weak. On February 24 2012 01:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I don't deny that Ryze is weak very early, I just think that weakness fades quickly and only a handful of champs actually counter him after that. Also that his weakness against the entire list of pushers is made up for by pushers being really susceptible to ganks, of which Ryze is one of the best facilitators. The difference is not what we think of Ryze, but what we think a counter is. I don't think someone losing at level 1-3 is a real counter if they drastically fall behind after that. I think Xerath and Cassio are counters because their strength persists for more than 3 or 4 levels against ryze, you think anyone that gives him a little trouble at the start is a counter. I think you overestimate Ryze's abilities to do anything before getting the first blue and having some items. A good player will punish the shit out of you before that first blue. It isnt a counter so much as Ryze is just really freakin weak up till that blue and buy, which is a lot later than levels 1-3.
Well I mean... how true is this? Vs the Veigar, what can he do? Stun W and lasthit with no Qs afterwards?
Ryze can harrass numerous champions very well after lvl 5 especially.
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On February 24 2012 01:43 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 24 2012 01:35 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:33 BlueSpace wrote:On February 24 2012 01:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 24 2012 01:24 Slayer91 wrote:On February 24 2012 01:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
"Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful"
"Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1"
You started this game, not me.
And ya, sorry Shik, I just saw "starting saphire crystal" and stopped there. Even in matchups where you can get away without boots cuz the lane opponent is weaker boots are just all around a better option because they let you do more things. Its a lot easier to just accept the fact that you arent gonna be able to do a whole lot before the first blue buff than to try to gimp yourself hard in one area to try to do a tiny of extra damage. You can say kass and LB counter ryzes early game, but surely there are better champs for that? LB and Kass get owned hard in teamfights by ryze because his prison basically screws over their escape mechanism and he's pretty tanky if he manages to get any kind of farm so they can't combo him effectively. I can understand him having trouble early game, but that's true on a lot of ryze match ups. I mean, it's pretty easy to punish a super agressive kass/lb in lane with jungle ganks with a ryze prison as well. Yar, late game ryze is better. But the point of my argument was that there are a lot of champs that screw Ryze over early on, and those are 2 of them. But as you say, Ryze has a lot of bad matchups early on so there are more effective late game choices to pick against him. Maybe you two just have different definitions of a weak early laner? TwoTone: Weak = Gets ganked easily early in lane TwoDown: Weak = Gets pushed to tower easily and has to farm there My understanding of what TwoTone was saying was more Two_DoWn- Weak=Pushed on, Loses trades early in the lane TwoTone= Not weak. On February 24 2012 01:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I don't deny that Ryze is weak very early, I just think that weakness fades quickly and only a handful of champs actually counter him after that. Also that his weakness against the entire list of pushers is made up for by pushers being really susceptible to ganks, of which Ryze is one of the best facilitators. The difference is not what we think of Ryze, but what we think a counter is. I don't think someone losing at level 1-3 is a real counter if they drastically fall behind after that. I think Xerath and Cassio are counters because their strength persists for more than 3 or 4 levels against ryze, you think anyone that gives him a little trouble at the start is a counter. I think you overestimate Ryze's abilities to do anything before getting the first blue and having some items. A good player will punish the shit out of you before that first blue. It isnt a counter so much as Ryze is just really freakin weak up till that blue and buy, which is a lot later than levels 1-3.
Right, but what's that situation like? 10 cs behind, 15? Then you instantly get stomped because ryze will just walk up and kill your face and push your lane and kill all the other lanes because he's awesome. I listed Cassio and Xerath as counters because he can't pull off that shit on them either. The only way someone being stronger at levels 1-3 for me is really a counter is if you zone him so hard and so completely that he's not even last hitting under tower and can't get any items, and I don't feel like ANYONE does that besides maybe Cassio, as far as mid laners go.
I feel like if we really want to settle this we'd have to go indepth on how ryze functions against every champion you listed as a counter that I disagree with and that might take awhile and this thread probably isn't the place for it.
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On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point?
Her damage out put in late game is very week, the strength of AP casters is either 1) ridic sustained damage, like cass, karthus, ryze, ziggs, ahri. or 2) super burst, like annie, brand, sion, and so on.
When it hits late game, Lux does neither of these well.
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So moves that apply on hit effects, autos, and moves that cause you to auto all force you to draw minion aggro which also pushes the lane. So walking into Singed's poison won't cause him to draw aggro, not that he cares if he has aggro, just an example. Riven's q spam won't draw aggro as long as you don't auto attack? What about creeps priority of target? After the creep kills the other creep what will decide if the creeps aggro you or go to the next creepy, and how can you tell which creepy it will be targeted by each creepy? This type of thing will help me with my last hitting and probably increase my Elo by 25 points in two minutes.
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On February 24 2012 01:45 Juicyfruit wrote:
You counter someone in lane with these scenarios
1) Deny them cs/gold super hard and snowball the lane
2) Tie lane but vastly outscale later
3) Bully him but then spend that advantage elsewhere on the map
Not too many champions can honestly accomplish the first, even fewer can accomplish the second, but the last one, if done well, can be done on a consistent enough basis to be considered a "counter" to ryze.
Hmm, whenever I'm ryze I usually can out bully the shit out of a lot of AP casters.
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On February 24 2012 01:54 Sabin010 wrote:
So moves that apply on hit effects, autos, and moves that cause you to auto all force you to draw minion aggro which also pushes the lane. So walking into Singed's poison won't cause him to draw aggro, not that he cares if he has aggro, just an example. Riven's q spam won't draw aggro as long as you don't auto attack? What about creeps priority of target? After the creep kills the other creep what will decide if the creeps aggro you or go to the next creepy, and how can you tell which creepy it will be targeted by each creepy? This type of thing will help me with my last hitting and probably increase my Elo by 25 points in two minutes.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Minion#Behavior
The answers you seek lie within.
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On February 24 2012 01:57 midnight.tokyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:54 Sabin010 wrote:
So moves that apply on hit effects, autos, and moves that cause you to auto all force you to draw minion aggro which also pushes the lane. So walking into Singed's poison won't cause him to draw aggro, not that he cares if he has aggro, just an example. Riven's q spam won't draw aggro as long as you don't auto attack? What about creeps priority of target? After the creep kills the other creep what will decide if the creeps aggro you or go to the next creepy, and how can you tell which creepy it will be targeted by each creepy? This type of thing will help me with my last hitting and probably increase my Elo by 25 points in two minutes. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Minion#BehaviorThe answers you seek lie within.
Copy and pasted from the wikia. I think everybody here should know this, and if you already know it well it's just going to reaffirm what you already know.
Minions prioritize targets in the following order:
An enemy champion designated by a call for help from an allied champion. (Enemy champion attacking an Allied champion)
An enemy minion designated by a call for help from an allied champion. (Enemy minion attacking an Allied champion)
An enemy minion designated by a call for help from an allied minion. (Enemy minion attacking an Allied minion)
An enemy turret designated by a call for help from an allied minion. (Enemy turret attacking an Allied minion)
An enemy champion designated by a call for help from an allied minion. (Enemy champion attacking an Allied minion)
The closest enemy minion.
The closest enemy champion.
Note: Single-target spells such as Disintegrate or Null Sphere will not generate a call for help, however spells that applies On-Hit effects like Parrrley or Mystic Shot will generate a call for help.
Because they are continuously reevaluating their target, minions will lose interest in an enemy champion if that champion breaks off an engagement with them, provided that there is any other target left for them to choose within range.
Minions will only reevaluate their target every few seconds. This means that if your champion initiates an attack against an enemy champion, your champion will continue to be viewed as the most threatening target for a short time after you have broken off the attack. This is true even if one of your allied champions has joined the fight, since minions always prioritize their current target over a new target of equal priority.
Note that if you leave the minions sight they will automatically reevaluate their target and will carry on walking or attacking something else, and they will not attack you again unless you attack a enemy champion in their sight
The only question I have now is regarding AOE attacks and the call for help.
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On February 24 2012 01:54 Sabin010 wrote:
So moves that apply on hit effects, autos, and moves that cause you to auto all force you to draw minion aggro which also pushes the lane. So walking into Singed's poison won't cause him to draw aggro, not that he cares if he has aggro, just an example. Riven's q spam won't draw aggro as long as you don't auto attack? What about creeps priority of target? After the creep kills the other creep what will decide if the creeps aggro you or go to the next creepy, and how can you tell which creepy it will be targeted by each creepy? This type of thing will help me with my last hitting and probably increase my Elo by 25 points in two minutes.
Another way to get minion aggro is to stun/fear the minions with an aoe and be too close to them. Like sometimes you'll get aggro when you use riven stun near minions or volibear's aoe slow/minion fear.
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On February 24 2012 02:04 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:57 midnight.tokyo wrote:On February 24 2012 01:54 Sabin010 wrote:
So moves that apply on hit effects, autos, and moves that cause you to auto all force you to draw minion aggro which also pushes the lane. So walking into Singed's poison won't cause him to draw aggro, not that he cares if he has aggro, just an example. Riven's q spam won't draw aggro as long as you don't auto attack? What about creeps priority of target? After the creep kills the other creep what will decide if the creeps aggro you or go to the next creepy, and how can you tell which creepy it will be targeted by each creepy? This type of thing will help me with my last hitting and probably increase my Elo by 25 points in two minutes. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Minion#BehaviorThe answers you seek lie within. Copy and pasted from the wikia. I think everybody here should know this, and if you already know it well it's just going to reaffirm what you already know. Minions prioritize targets in the following order: An enemy champion designated by a call for help from an allied champion. (Enemy champion attacking an Allied champion) An enemy minion designated by a call for help from an allied champion. (Enemy minion attacking an Allied champion) An enemy minion designated by a call for help from an allied minion. (Enemy minion attacking an Allied minion) An enemy turret designated by a call for help from an allied minion. (Enemy turret attacking an Allied minion) An enemy champion designated by a call for help from an allied minion. (Enemy champion attacking an Allied minion) The closest enemy minion. The closest enemy champion. Note: Single-target spells such as Disintegrate or Null Sphere will not generate a call for help, however spells that applies On-Hit effects like Parrrley or Mystic Shot will generate a call for help. Because they are continuously reevaluating their target, minions will lose interest in an enemy champion if that champion breaks off an engagement with them, provided that there is any other target left for them to choose within range. Minions will only reevaluate their target every few seconds. This means that if your champion initiates an attack against an enemy champion, your champion will continue to be viewed as the most threatening target for a short time after you have broken off the attack. This is true even if one of your allied champions has joined the fight, since minions always prioritize their current target over a new target of equal priority. Note that if you leave the minions sight they will automatically reevaluate their target and will carry on walking or attacking something else, and they will not attack you again unless you attack a enemy champion in their sight The only question I have now is regarding AOE attacks and the call for help.
From what I understand, if the enemy minions are already attacking allied minions they'll ignore you unless you hit an enemy champion. Unless you continue to attack the enemy champion though they'll reevaluate their target soon after and go back to allied minions.
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On February 24 2012 01:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? Her damage out put in late game is very week, the strength of AP casters is either 1) ridic sustained damage, like cass, karthus, ryze, ziggs, ahri. or 2) super burst, like annie, brand, sion, and so on. When it hits late game, Lux does neither of these well.
Hmm... what lux lacks isn't burst damage. Her burst damage on enemy backrow is probably one of the most reliable out of the AP carries because you just E R properly and BAM, their two carries are at half health
But regarding her spells, they're just too impractical to use and the payoff isn't worth the conditional constraints to being able to use all her spells to their full potential. I'd venture a guess that a perfectly played Lux is much stronger than most commonly played AP carries, but on the flipside, you have very little room for error with any of your spells, what with the fairly long cooldown and her being complete deadwhile while her spells are on cooldown.
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EPT
