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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 23 2012 22:09 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/ I like to grab an Executioners Calling. Makes the lane much more bearable because you get a free ignite (minute the deeps) every 20 seconds. It really cuts down on his sustain (and similar champs sutain, btw) If you have a champ that allows bully him early with ranged harass so he is forced to go without mana to last hit. Other than that, hope your jungler smart enough to realize that WW is a good laner that also scales really well and camps your lane. I dunno, he reminds me of when everyone used to play Riven because he damn good in lane, and he scale super hard. Basically all WW has to do to "win lane" is get minimal CS and not feed.... but he has such good sustain that getting CS pretty easy and he can just flat out bully many champs in lane. /shrug Hmm, speaking of riven... maybe champs that scale really well like Nasus/Riven would be good? I feel I need to experiment. My thoughts are that Riven probably wins early game, but is also likely useless against WW once he grabs like a glacial shroud... Riven should be able to farm with her mobility and shield though, so I think it would be a tie... which as Riven is a good thing imo. But then again, as WW it a good thing... Zzz... enough theory crafting for me.
How does nasus fare against warwick? If it turns into a farmfest, you could pick nasus : both seem to be pretty similar, and both have beastly lategames.
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On February 23 2012 22:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/ Yorick should beat him if you manage your mana correctly. I'd imagine Udyr would beat him in a right click war but not sure if he can do anything about his sustain.
Yorick is nowhere near a counter to WW. WW gets Chalice and poops on him, end of story :/ And you can lifesteal ghouls.
Udyr should fare well in the laning phase but I don't feel like he scales as hard as WW. Sure his single target DPS is monstruous but WW has range (Q), is very hard to kite (E) and has a real gap closer (R).
EDIT :
On February 23 2012 22:34 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:09 iCanada wrote:On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/ I like to grab an Executioners Calling. Makes the lane much more bearable because you get a free ignite (minute the deeps) every 20 seconds. It really cuts down on his sustain (and similar champs sutain, btw) If you have a champ that allows bully him early with ranged harass so he is forced to go without mana to last hit. Other than that, hope your jungler smart enough to realize that WW is a good laner that also scales really well and camps your lane. I dunno, he reminds me of when everyone used to play Riven because he damn good in lane, and he scale super hard. Basically all WW has to do to "win lane" is get minimal CS and not feed.... but he has such good sustain that getting CS pretty easy and he can just flat out bully many champs in lane. /shrug Hmm, speaking of riven... maybe champs that scale really well like Nasus/Riven would be good? I feel I need to experiment. My thoughts are that Riven probably wins early game, but is also likely useless against WW once he grabs like a glacial shroud... Riven should be able to farm with her mobility and shield though, so I think it would be a tie... which as Riven is a good thing imo. But then again, as WW it a good thing... Zzz... enough theory crafting for me. How does nasus fare against warwick? If it turns into a farmfest, you could pick nasus : both seem to be pretty similar, and both have beastly lategames.
Except WW will farm you and not the creeps.
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On February 23 2012 22:06 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 21:55 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
farm, don't get low enough for bloodscent to trigger, and ask your jungler nicely for a gank With this strategy he'll end up with equal farm, which is very rarely a good thing if he doesn't build funfire. As far as I know, Panth has problems with CDRwick once he hits 6+, and WW can easily camp long enough to do this. He doesn't even need gear, just lvls. GP is just straight up eaten by any competent WW, like Nasus, Irelia, and most standard bruisers. My only success so far has been once with Singed, since you can just ignore him in lane past 6 and are a big pain to him in teamfights...
if you're asking what bruiser counters warwick in lane 1v1 with no jungle ganks then your answer is easy: none of them do
if you want to win your lane versus ww you either:
A) (playing a bruiser) ask your jungler nicely to gank/camp top lane (early on) with no escape ability and will most likely be playing aggressively and overextending to deny u cs
or
B) don't play a bruiser top lane (play kennen or something)
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Few notes cuz I was asleep
- If you want to learn to play ap mid, pick up annie. She is all around good, but pretty much every other mage does at least 1 thing better than she does. You establish a good baseline from which you can branch off into other mage picks. Its the same reason I always suggest people learn to jungle WW and Ad carry as Ashe. They are fine on their own, arent terrible, but set good baselines for the class from which point you can decide which direction you want to go in.
- Lux is a fine solo laner. Every ~3 months I have to do a post proving to people that her CDs and Ap ratios are in fact QUITE simmilar to other burst ap mages. Plus fed lux is devistating because there is realistically no way you should ever GET to her in a fight.
- Ryze is really easy to counter. His earlygame is actually pretty crap. Its just that once he gets glacial and BV he turns into the most op mage in the game.
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What a stupid argument.
-If you can't hit skillshots, you're bad.
-If you can't dodge skillshots, you're bad.
You're going to hit some and you're going to miss some. The better one side gets at landing them, the better the other gets at dodging them.
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On February 23 2012 22:34 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:09 iCanada wrote:On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/ I like to grab an Executioners Calling. Makes the lane much more bearable because you get a free ignite (minute the deeps) every 20 seconds. It really cuts down on his sustain (and similar champs sutain, btw) If you have a champ that allows bully him early with ranged harass so he is forced to go without mana to last hit. Other than that, hope your jungler smart enough to realize that WW is a good laner that also scales really well and camps your lane. I dunno, he reminds me of when everyone used to play Riven because he damn good in lane, and he scale super hard. Basically all WW has to do to "win lane" is get minimal CS and not feed.... but he has such good sustain that getting CS pretty easy and he can just flat out bully many champs in lane. /shrug Hmm, speaking of riven... maybe champs that scale really well like Nasus/Riven would be good? I feel I need to experiment. My thoughts are that Riven probably wins early game, but is also likely useless against WW once he grabs like a glacial shroud... Riven should be able to farm with her mobility and shield though, so I think it would be a tie... which as Riven is a good thing imo. But then again, as WW it a good thing... Zzz... enough theory crafting for me. How does nasus fare against warwick? If it turns into a farmfest, you could pick nasus : both seem to be pretty similar, and both have beastly lategames.
Well every time he lasthits he gets Q'd so basically he's going to get pooped on and is going to die toe every gank after 6
On February 23 2012 22:54 Craton wrote:
What a stupid argument.
-If you can't hit skillshots, you're bad.
-If you can't dodge skillshots, you're bad.
You're going to hit some and you're going to miss some. The better one side gets at landing them, the better the other gets at dodging them.
It's mostly up to the defender though, especially ones with high mobility, and staying behind creeps can effectively block almost all. You generally don't expect to land more than maybe one or two without some kind of a setup
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On February 23 2012 22:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
Few notes cuz I was asleep
- If you want to learn to play ap mid, pick up annie. She is all around good, but pretty much every other mage does at least 1 thing better than she does. You establish a good baseline from which you can branch off into other mage picks. Its the same reason I always suggest people learn to jungle WW and Ad carry as Ashe. They are fine on their own, arent terrible, but set good baselines for the class from which point you can decide which direction you want to go in.
- Lux is a fine solo laner. Every ~3 months I have to do a post proving to people that her CDs and Ap ratios are in fact QUITE simmilar to other burst ap mages. Plus fed lux is devistating because there is realistically no way you should ever GET to her in a fight.
- Ryze is really easy to counter. His earlygame is actually pretty crap. Its just that once he gets glacial and BV he turns into the most op mage in the game.
Ryze is easy to counter? Really? He's lauded as one of the safest early picks in the game.
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On February 23 2012 23:05 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
Few notes cuz I was asleep
- If you want to learn to play ap mid, pick up annie. She is all around good, but pretty much every other mage does at least 1 thing better than she does. You establish a good baseline from which you can branch off into other mage picks. Its the same reason I always suggest people learn to jungle WW and Ad carry as Ashe. They are fine on their own, arent terrible, but set good baselines for the class from which point you can decide which direction you want to go in.
- Lux is a fine solo laner. Every ~3 months I have to do a post proving to people that her CDs and Ap ratios are in fact QUITE simmilar to other burst ap mages. Plus fed lux is devistating because there is realistically no way you should ever GET to her in a fight.
- Ryze is really easy to counter. His earlygame is actually pretty crap. Its just that once he gets glacial and BV he turns into the most op mage in the game. Ryze is easy to counter? Really? He's lauded as one of the safest early picks in the game.
People who beat Ryze early: pushers- Sion, Cass, Morg, Grag. Harassers- Vlad, Cass, Brand. Assholes- LB and Kass.
Ryze is actually a fairly weak champion when it comes to early laning. His mana costs are fairly prohibitive early on, has no pushing power, and has trouble trading with a lot of mages simply because his q has a very slow starting scale.
As the game ramps on to post 6-7 and he has a tear and parts of a cata his laning gets infinitly better. But early on he definitly has some trouble against a lot of people.
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Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful. Neither are even a threat until Ryze has Tear and Cata and if they're even slightly scary he can go straight negatron cloak without it affecting his build. Talk about early weak laners.
Ryze with blue could give a crap about pushers. Cass and Brand fair well but they don't outright crush him in lane. In no world do morg and grag beat Ryze. Sion is iffy I haven't seen enough of the matchup, but most of what I see is Sion's beating on creeps to get them into one shot with shield range and, well, Ryze w outranges Sion stun so he can just unload and pop the shield.
You didn't even list champs that I think actually give him huge problems besides Cassio (Xerath, Ziggs and Anivia with blue)
Even assuming these things, most of these champs don't push the wave that well until level 5 or so. If you see them trying to push you can just spam autos. It's dumb for champs to push at low levels anyhow since they become easy ganks (morg is an exception to the gank rule). Ryze is pretty damn easy to gank for at level 2 and beyond.
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On February 23 2012 23:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful. Neither are even a threat until Ryze has Tear and Cata and if they're even slightly scary he can go straight negatron cloak without it affecting his build. Talk about early weak laners.
Ryze with blue could give a crap about pushers. Cass and Brand fair well but they don't outright crush him in lane. In no world do morg and grag beat Ryze. Sion is iffy I haven't seen enough of the matchup, but most of what I see is Sion's beating on creeps to get them into one shot with shield range and, well, Ryze w outranges Sion stun so he can just unload and pop the shield.
You didn't even list champs that I think actually give him huge problems besides Cassio (Xerath, Ziggs and Anivia with blue)
Is this the point where I facepalm and need to explain to you that Xerath, Ziggs, and Anivia all fit into the categories that I listed?
And its not really an "I think kass and LB beat ryze." Assassins beat Ryze. The most common counterpick for Jiji when an enemy picks Ryze against CLG is Viegar. And you got it backwards. It isnt the items Ryze has that scares him, its at what point do they hit level 6 and just KILL you. You're talking about 2.3k worth of gold investment, plus another 350 gold for boots, and Im assuming another 300 in wards and pots. That puts you at just under 3k gold as your needed CORE on Ryze. At what point are you getting a Negatron and not just ceding that the fact you just set yourself back 740 gold was, uuuuh, KIND OF REALIZING THEY COUNTER YOU.
And its good to know that early laning phase means you get blue at level 1 to deal with heavy pushers. Come back at 7:20 when you will ACTUALLY get a blue buff. Which, last I checked, WAS NOT EARLY LANING.
And now your edit just cements the fact you really dont know what you are talking about. There is an entire subset of champions who make their day by pushing mid. You dont think that they know how to deal with ganks? Or roam the map? Good luck getting your blue if you are on your tower while the enemy morg, or cass, or sion is with his team at your blue waiting to kill you.
Again- Ryze is good. He is one of the top 2 mages in the game atm. But it ISNT because he is an amazing early laner.
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Yay, hit back 1250! \o/ Now to stabilize and aim for 1400. (And no, that won't go to Loci's thread. That's not awesome.)
Also, some attention whoring from a few pages back:
who plays Nautilus top? I haven't had the opportunity to do it much, and I was camped by the jungler early on in each game, so I couldn't really get a good grasp of it. RoA or philo/chalice->RoA seems standard start, and against someone who can't burst your shield effectively you can push easily and make good trades, but you're vulnerable to ganks if you push and anyone with a burst will destroy your shield and send the wave to your tower where your AS will screw you.
I haven't tried maxing E before W yet, the cdr on W seems so important for its uptime. I was a bit surprised that I actually managed to beat down Akali pre-6 (she hit it before me and with a kill or assist thanks to the camping, so I don't know if that qualifies). Any idea of other favorable match-ups for him?
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On February 23 2012 23:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Ahaha you think Kass and LB beat Ryze. That's just wonderful. Neither are even a threat until Ryze has Tear and Cata and if they're even slightly scary he can go straight negatron cloak without it affecting his build. Talk about early weak laners.
Ryze with blue could give a crap about pushers. Cass and Brand fair well but they don't outright crush him in lane. In no world do morg and grag beat Ryze. Sion is iffy I haven't seen enough of the matchup, but most of what I see is Sion's beating on creeps to get them into one shot with shield range and, well, Ryze w outranges Sion stun so he can just unload and pop the shield.
You didn't even list champs that I think actually give him huge problems besides Cassio (Xerath, Ziggs and Anivia with blue) Is this the point where I facepalm and need to explain to you that Xerath, Ziggs, and Anivia all fit into the categories that I listed? And its not really an "I think kass and LB beat ryze." Assassins beat Ryze. The most common counterpick for Jiji when an enemy picks Ryze against CLG is Viegar. And you got it backwards. It isnt the items Ryze has that scares him, its at what point do they hit level 6 and just KILL you. You're talking about 2.3k worth of gold investment, plus another 350 gold for boots, and Im assuming another 300 in wards and pots. That puts you at just under 3k gold as your needed CORE on Ryze. At what point are you getting a Negatron and not just ceding that the fact you just set yourself back 740 gold was, uuuuh, KIND OF REALIZING THEY COUNTER YOU. And its good to know that early laning phase means you get blue at level 1 to deal with heavy pushers. Come back at 7:20 when you will ACTUALLY get a blue buff. Which, last I checked, WAS NOT EARLY LANING.
You so viciously skirted everything I said that I don't know if I should continue. Like making up the bullshit about getting blue at level 1. My point was, all of these "pushers" don't push lane that hard early on, and if they go all out to do it they run out of mana fast and are easy ganks (being an easy gank against even level 2 ryze is dangerous). You just argued that every common AP mid in the game besides like Karthus straight up beats Ryze in lane when that's not true at all.
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uh, i don't play ryze, but did some looking thru the ryze thread, and pretty much every other post was about how ryze gets knocked up a bit until he hits tear/cata in just about every matchup.
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T_D: You seriously said that Veigar counters Ryze?
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On February 23 2012 23:41 barbsq wrote:
uh, i don't play ryze, but did some looking thru the ryze thread, and pretty much every other post was about how ryze gets knocked up a bit until he hits tear/cata in just about every matchup.
No one's going to kill you before your first buy unless you're an idiot(or they're pantheon or something like that). If you beat almost everyone after you get your first item then chances are you're a pretty safe champ. Every AP is pretty weak at level 1-3.
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On February 23 2012 23:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 23:41 barbsq wrote:
uh, i don't play ryze, but did some looking thru the ryze thread, and pretty much every other post was about how ryze gets knocked up a bit until he hits tear/cata in just about every matchup. No one's going to kill you before your first buy unless you're an idiot(or they're pantheon or something like that). If you beat almost everyone after you get your first item then chances are you're a pretty safe champ. Every AP is pretty weak at level 1-3.
you reliably get 2.2k gold for your first buy whilst having some issues in lane? also in my experience, tear + cata comes around level 9-13ish, not 1-3.
edit: used to do tear + cata on anivia and kass way back when it was popular, and that seemed to be around the levels i had both.
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On February 23 2012 23:44 Shikyo wrote:
T_D: You seriously said that Veigar counters Ryze?
According to Jiji. Viegar is the champ he asks for if the enemy has Ryze. Which makes sense if you think about it. You dont even need the ap boost on your ult to do a lot of damage (he can pretty much kill most mids at level 6, and you're gonna have about 50-60 ap tops then).
Plus Viegar is safe early because Ryze has no way to actually punish him.
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Just play jarman vs ryze. His root won't stop eq, and you're going to be tankier in the late game. Plus you get to do the eqr combo, which in my opion is more fun than doing some qrqwqeq machine gunning from ryze, and having fun is what its all abour, right?
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Lux's skillshots aren't' that hard. You'd be surprised how predictable people are when it comes to evasion. And a miss usually isn't punishing with Lux's range.
Fun fact, Lux's burst is comparable to LeBlanc's at level 6-7 if you hit a passive proc or two. Light Binding, throw out an AA then immediately use E, Laser, AA and detonate E at the same time. Misses a (guaranteed) passive proc, but comes out quite fast and guarantees a laser hit. 650 (+2.1 /AP). Leblanc is like 600 + 3/AP if you hit and proc everything.
Her real problem is her mana issues. Even with Yellow/Blue mana regen runes and a doran's or two, you still need to be somewhat conservative with your E harass. You need blue buff to really exploit how silly her harass is.
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On February 23 2012 22:36 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/ Yorick should beat him if you manage your mana correctly. I'd imagine Udyr would beat him in a right click war but not sure if he can do anything about his sustain. Yorick is nowhere near a counter to WW. WW gets Chalice and poops on him, end of story :/ And you can lifesteal ghouls. Udyr should fare well in the laning phase but I don't feel like he scales as hard as WW. Sure his single target DPS is monstruous but WW has range (Q), is very hard to kite (E) and has a real gap closer (R). EDIT : Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 22:34 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:On February 23 2012 22:09 iCanada wrote:On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/ I like to grab an Executioners Calling. Makes the lane much more bearable because you get a free ignite (minute the deeps) every 20 seconds. It really cuts down on his sustain (and similar champs sutain, btw) If you have a champ that allows bully him early with ranged harass so he is forced to go without mana to last hit. Other than that, hope your jungler smart enough to realize that WW is a good laner that also scales really well and camps your lane. I dunno, he reminds me of when everyone used to play Riven because he damn good in lane, and he scale super hard. Basically all WW has to do to "win lane" is get minimal CS and not feed.... but he has such good sustain that getting CS pretty easy and he can just flat out bully many champs in lane. /shrug Hmm, speaking of riven... maybe champs that scale really well like Nasus/Riven would be good? I feel I need to experiment. My thoughts are that Riven probably wins early game, but is also likely useless against WW once he grabs like a glacial shroud... Riven should be able to farm with her mobility and shield though, so I think it would be a tie... which as Riven is a good thing imo. But then again, as WW it a good thing... Zzz... enough theory crafting for me. How does nasus fare against warwick? If it turns into a farmfest, you could pick nasus : both seem to be pretty similar, and both have beastly lategames. Except WW will farm you and not the creeps.
How do you expect to kill a nasus with warwick though? I don't think I've ever had problems against ww as nasus. He has enough sustain to ignore Q harass and his W is pretty sick against warwick especially considering warwick can't really escape a nasus W gank unless nasus is under 50%.
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EPT
