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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 23 2012 19:05 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone.
Well, Ryze players usually come to lane with 400 movespeed... So yeah, given Lux's skillshots are very slow, it's quite easy to dodge them.
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On February 23 2012 19:14 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 19:05 JackDino wrote:On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone. Well, Ryze players usually come to lane with 400 movespeed... So yeah, given Lux's skillshots are very slow, it's quite easy to dodge them.
No, if you are fucking terrible at playing lux, then it's quite easy to dodge them. By your logic any skillbased champ that doesn't have rammus speed of light moving projectiles is useless because everyone starts running around with boots 2 and anyone with a phantom dancer is even faster, gl killing ad carries as gragas(barrel roll really slow too).
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On February 23 2012 19:25 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 19:14 mr_tolkien wrote:On February 23 2012 19:05 JackDino wrote:On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone. Well, Ryze players usually come to lane with 400 movespeed... So yeah, given Lux's skillshots are very slow, it's quite easy to dodge them. No, if you are fucking terrible at playing lux, then it's quite easy to dodge them. By your logic any skillbased champ that doesn't have rammus speed of light moving projectiles is useless because everyone starts running around with boots 2 and anyone with a phantom dancer is even faster, gl killing ad carries as gragas(barrel roll really slow too).
Well, in teamfights it's not the same. As Gon said in HunterXHunter before fighting Hisoka, the best moment to attack a target is when they're attacking as well, because their movement pattern will be predictable.
You really aren't supposed to hit with Gragas barrels in laning phase except melee after a headbutt.
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On February 23 2012 18:50 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. What buff is this? Lux has been fine, you just live and die based on how well you hit light bindings, and the average joe is bad at hitting them. After watching Loci play her a few times, I picked her up, and she's probably one of the champions I have the most fun playing due to the amount of skill required to be good at her. The difference between a good Lux and a bad one is huge.
PBE Patch Notes:
Lux
Lucent Singularity
* Now additionally grants vision while in flight to its destination
* Now starts its cooldown when cast rather than when detonated
* Cooldown increased to 10 seconds from 9
* Now displays a buff showing how long Lucent Singularity will last until it automatically detonates
Finales Funkeln
* Now grants vision of the affected area during the spell and vision of enemy champions hit for a short duration afterwards
* Lux can no longer use Flash while casting Finales Funkeln
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On February 23 2012 19:30 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 19:25 JackDino wrote:On February 23 2012 19:14 mr_tolkien wrote:On February 23 2012 19:05 JackDino wrote:On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone. Well, Ryze players usually come to lane with 400 movespeed... So yeah, given Lux's skillshots are very slow, it's quite easy to dodge them. No, if you are fucking terrible at playing lux, then it's quite easy to dodge them. By your logic any skillbased champ that doesn't have rammus speed of light moving projectiles is useless because everyone starts running around with boots 2 and anyone with a phantom dancer is even faster, gl killing ad carries as gragas(barrel roll really slow too). Well, in teamfights it's not the same. As Gon said in HunterXHunter before fighting Hisoka, the best moment to attack a target is when they're attacking as well, because their movement pattern will be predictable. You really aren't supposed to hit with Gragas barrels in laning phase except melee after a headbutt.
If you can't hit your skillshots in lane then you need to skill up, it's that simple, it's not an argument for a champion being bad.
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On February 23 2012 19:41 JackDino wrote:
If you can't hit your skillshots in lane then you need to skill up, it's that simple, it's not an argument for a champion being bad.
This is completely false. There are some skillshots you can hit in the laning phase (Orianna Q, Cassio combo, ...), but a lot of them won't find their use before teamfights, because they are either blocked by creeps (nearly unusable in laning phase in that case) or fully linear (therefore nearly impossible to hit from long range).
Lux has both those problems. Even though you can reliably hit her E, if you get nuked back for it, this is usually not enough. And your Q is close to impossible to land in the laning phase.
Some skillshots champions have laning skillshots, some others have fighting skillshots. This is simply not the same, and it is possible for a skillshot character to have a weak laning phase BECAUSE OF HOW HIS SKILLSHOTS WORK.
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On February 23 2012 19:52 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 19:41 JackDino wrote:
If you can't hit your skillshots in lane then you need to skill up, it's that simple, it's not an argument for a champion being bad. This is completely false. There are some skillshots you can hit in the laning phase (Orianna Q, Cassio combo, ...), but a lot of them won't find their use before teamfights, because they are either blocked by creeps (nearly unusable in laning phase in that case) or fully linear (therefore nearly impossible to hit from long range). Lux has both those problems. Even though you can reliably hit her E, if you get nuked back for it, this is usually not enough. And your Q is close to impossible to land in the laning phase. Some skillshots champions have laning skillshots, some others have fighting skillshots. This is simply not the same, and it is possible for a skillshot character to have a weak laning phase BECAUSE OF HOW HIS SKILLSHOTS WORK.
Yeah, blitz worst laner in the game, lee also a terrible top laner. Lux Q actually goes trough a minion so you can hit it if you see the opening, you dont need to hit Q tho, you just E all day long. Positioning/creepclearing>creeps.
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On February 23 2012 19:52 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 19:41 JackDino wrote:
If you can't hit your skillshots in lane then you need to skill up, it's that simple, it's not an argument for a champion being bad. This is completely false. There are some skillshots you can hit in the laning phase (Orianna Q, Cassio combo, ...), but a lot of them won't find their use before teamfights, because they are either blocked by creeps (nearly unusable in laning phase in that case) or fully linear (therefore nearly impossible to hit from long range). Lux has both those problems. Even though you can reliably hit her E, if you get nuked back for it, this is usually not enough. And your Q is close to impossible to land in the laning phase. Some skillshots champions have laning skillshots, some others have fighting skillshots. This is simply not the same, and it is possible for a skillshot character to have a weak laning phase BECAUSE OF HOW HIS SKILLSHOTS WORK.
ryze has to approach you to harass you. in approaching you he will walk in a line towards you. if he's moving towards you, your E should never miss. if you land your E, your Q should never miss.
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Alot of Lux damage does come from her passive hit , u need to come closer in range for that. If u do , you are in range, if you dont , you miss damage. Take your pick
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On February 23 2012 19:05 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone.
Ryze opens up with boots and movespeed quints. He is specifically good at avoiding skillshots, especially ones with ENORMOUS tells like the giant slow moving ball of light that constitutes her main damage.
Also, Cass's q has short cooldowns that makes her E have a short cooldown -- spammability is important. Completely incomparable to Lux who goes into lane with 15sec cd and 9 sec cd. This was a very ignorant comparison.
On February 23 2012 19:56 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 19:52 mr_tolkien wrote:On February 23 2012 19:41 JackDino wrote:
If you can't hit your skillshots in lane then you need to skill up, it's that simple, it's not an argument for a champion being bad. This is completely false. There are some skillshots you can hit in the laning phase (Orianna Q, Cassio combo, ...), but a lot of them won't find their use before teamfights, because they are either blocked by creeps (nearly unusable in laning phase in that case) or fully linear (therefore nearly impossible to hit from long range). Lux has both those problems. Even though you can reliably hit her E, if you get nuked back for it, this is usually not enough. And your Q is close to impossible to land in the laning phase. Some skillshots champions have laning skillshots, some others have fighting skillshots. This is simply not the same, and it is possible for a skillshot character to have a weak laning phase BECAUSE OF HOW HIS SKILLSHOTS WORK. ryze has to approach you to harass you. in approaching you he will walk in a line towards you. if he's moving towards you, your E should never miss. if you land your E, your Q should never miss.
Ryze only approaches you for ganks or if your stuff's on cooldown. If it turns into a farm lane then you lose because Ryze outscales you (Ryze outscales almost everyone). If you try to harass him near his creeps then you push lane which, well, let's just say Ryze is a pretty easy lane to gank for.
The argument of "If you miss your skillshots you need to level up" is turned on its head by saying "If you get hit by slow obvious skillshots like lux's then you need to level up your game." It turns into a wash of a scenario when you compare their 1 on 1 laning, and Ryze comes out ahead in that situation.
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On February 23 2012 20:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 19:05 JackDino wrote:On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone. Ryze opens up with boots and movespeed quints. He is specifically good at avoiding skillshots, especially ones with ENORMOUS tells like the giant slow moving ball of light that constitutes her main damage. Also, Cass's q has short cooldowns that makes her E have a short cooldown -- spammability is important. Completely incomparable to Lux who goes into lane with 15sec cd and 9 sec cd. This was a very ignorant comparison.
Landing a 15sec cd skillshot isn't too hard if you're good with your skillshots. The fact that cass Q is spammable just means that she'll run oom really fast if you dodge them.
Ryze isn't the only mid that opens boots+movespeed quints. He's about the only mid that gets movespeed from the defensive tree though.
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On February 23 2012 20:27 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 20:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 19:05 JackDino wrote:On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote:On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone. Ryze opens up with boots and movespeed quints. He is specifically good at avoiding skillshots, especially ones with ENORMOUS tells like the giant slow moving ball of light that constitutes her main damage. Also, Cass's q has short cooldowns that makes her E have a short cooldown -- spammability is important. Completely incomparable to Lux who goes into lane with 15sec cd and 9 sec cd. This was a very ignorant comparison. Landing a 15sec cd skillshot isn't too hard if you're good with your skillshots. The fact that cass Q is spammable just means that she'll run oom really fast if you dodge them. Ryze isn't the only mid that opens boots+movespeed quints. He's about the only mid that gets movespeed from the defensive tree though.
Dodging a slow skillshot isn't too hard if you have eyes and a right hand? Cassio's q has much less wind up time than Lux's E. If you miss a cassio Q ryze can't punish you for it because if you go into combo her you have to stand still, and it comes off of cooldown and she unloads and you lose the trade (This is why Cassio in general beats Ryze). Lux doesn't have this luxury.
Lux is by no means a bad champ, but Ryze in particular is not a lane she beats and is not a counterpick to him as was mentioned. At BEST it's a skill matchup.
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The stealth remake is supposed to adress more than just one shoddy aspect of the mechanic. It´s not just about how lame it makes the laning phase but also how you can´t be "good" at it, just play against players that are bad at countering it.
There is also the aspect of the map intelligence advantage, long term invisibility gives the opportunity to both know a lot more about the opponents positioning while concealing more about your own teams, a huge factor in a strategy game.
On top of that long term stealth is the reason Oracles has to exist in it´s current form.
Personally I think that the mechanic isn´t much better in Dota, however there isn´t really a consideration how shoddy a mechanic/situation it is to play against.
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I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/
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farm, don't get low enough for bloodscent to trigger, and ask your jungler nicely for a gank
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On February 23 2012 21:55 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
farm, don't get low enough for bloodscent to trigger, and ask your jungler nicely for a gank
With this strategy he'll end up with equal farm, which is very rarely a good thing if he doesn't build funfire.
As far as I know, Panth has problems with CDRwick once he hits 6+, and WW can easily camp long enough to do this. He doesn't even need gear, just lvls.
GP is just straight up eaten by any competent WW, like Nasus, Irelia, and most standard bruisers.
My only success so far has been once with Singed, since you can just ignore him in lane past 6 and are a big pain to him in teamfights...
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if you fling ww as singed you arent flinging the carry, seems like a decent trade for the ww tbh ;/
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On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/
I like to grab an Executioners Calling. Makes the lane much more bearable because you get a free ignite (minute the deeps) every 20 seconds. It really cuts down on his sustain (and similar champs sutain, btw)
If you have a champ that allows bully him early with ranged harass so he is forced to go without mana to last hit. Other than that, hope your jungler smart enough to realize that WW is a good laner that also scales really well and camps your lane.
I dunno, he reminds me of when everyone used to play Riven because he damn good in lane, and he scale super hard. Basically all WW has to do to "win lane" is get minimal CS and not feed.... but he has such good sustain that getting CS pretty easy and he can just flat out bully many champs in lane.
/shrug
Hmm, speaking of riven... maybe champs that scale really well like Nasus/Riven would be good? I feel I need to experiment. My thoughts are that Riven probably wins early game, but is also likely useless against WW once he grabs like a glacial shroud... Riven should be able to farm with her mobility and shield though, so I think it would be a tie... which as Riven is a good thing imo. But then again, as WW it a good thing... Zzz... enough theory crafting for me.
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On February 23 2012 21:17 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering, how does one counter WW top atm ? Seems really hard to me :/
Yorick should beat him if you manage your mana correctly. I'd imagine Udyr would beat him in a right click war but not sure if he can do anything about his sustain.
Maybe Fizz? Has anti heal debuff and can kite him around for ages.
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stack dorans lvl turtle, dat sustain
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EPT
