EPT[Patch 1.0.0.134: Nautilus] General Discussion - Page 120
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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. Eh the buffs don't seem that big since most of the time Lux's use Singularity for aoe damage not a slow, but yeah it will help. It seems like LoL has too many viable AP mids and just nobody plays her well expect Chu8. You had Doublelift talking on SOTL's last episode (not the one just shown tonight) that Chu8 carried his team really hard vs CLG and it's been a long time since he had seen a good Lux player. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On February 23 2012 15:03 Ryuu314 wrote: Bounty hunter, Clinkz, Broodmother, and Weaver all have non-ultimate stealths to name a few. The only hero in DotA with an stealth ultimate is Riki. -.-; nerubian assasin also has a stealth ultimate | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
On February 23 2012 16:39 BlackMagister wrote: Eh the buffs don't seem that big since most of the time Lux's use Singularity for aoe damage not a slow, but yeah it will help. It seems like LoL has too many viable AP mids and just nobody plays her well expect Chu8. You had Doublelift talking on SOTL's last episode (not the one just shown tonight) that Chu8 carried his team really hard vs CLG and it's been a long time since he had seen a good Lux player. It also gives vision, which means you can keep it up for 5 seconds out of every 10, compared to 5 seconds of every 14. Using it for vision so you can get into position always sucks because you really need to land it to maximize your ult damage, otherwise q is only giving you your pop from the ult on two people. That changes almost increases its effectiveness by 50%. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote: lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 23 2012 17:24 SnK-Arcbound wrote: The real reason why elementz was kicked off CLG; He thinks you don't need to smartcast, and he clicks to level up his skills. Tbh, after watching him play. He's not very good. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On February 23 2012 16:48 gtrsrs wrote: nerubian assasin also has a stealth ultimate most of dota's stealth heros don't actually have a stealth ultimate AND you can buy an item with stealth... argument invalidation complete! | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On February 23 2012 16:53 gtrsrs wrote: lux is perfectly viable as a solo laner and is a good counterpick to ryze atm In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. On February 23 2012 17:24 SnK-Arcbound wrote: The real reason why elementz was kicked off CLG; He thinks you don't need to smartcast, and he clicks to level up his skills. Chauster and Saint don't smartcast and Saint frequently click levels up his skills. :v | ||
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ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote: In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. Chauster and Saint don't smartcast and Saint frequently click levels up his skills. :v Was wondering the same, Ryze is one of the champions I do struggle with as Lux. Not the other way round... Ziggs too easy as Lux btw  | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On February 23 2012 17:24 SnK-Arcbound wrote: The real reason why elementz was kicked off CLG; He thinks you don't need to smartcast, and he clicks to level up his skills. Like, 99% of all the top players click to lvl up their skills aswell lol. Elementz #1 tibbers tho huehue. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On February 23 2012 17:21 wei2coolman wrote: Lux was very strong from early to mid game, then her power drops considerably. lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point On February 23 2012 17:43 TwoToneTerran wrote: In what way is Lux a counter to Ryze? I'm genuinely curious because I think it's the other way around, but I want to hear your reasoning. ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? | ||
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rob.au
1087 Posts
On February 23 2012 15:03 Ryuu314 wrote: Bounty hunter, Clinkz, Broodmother, and Weaver all have non-ultimate stealths to name a few. The only hero in DotA with an stealth ultimate is Riki. -.-; I also don't agree that stealth skills in DotA are weaker. If anything they're stronger. BH stealth gives a pretty large bonus damage when you leave stealth and Clinkz stealth basically gives you (almost) max movespeed. Both of those have 100% uptime at lvl 1. Weaver stealth does give max movespeed and also deals minor damage. At lvl 4 there's only a 2 second downtime. Broodmother has webs that give her stealth while she's in them and they also give +hp regen and movespeed. There's a lot more, but those are the biggest offenders I can think of off the top of my head. You really can't compare stealth in LoL and DotA :\ A stealth clinkz etc is barely any different to your ad carry hiding in top brush instead of going bot. Eve had a stun + stealth at level 1. Broodmother is condtional on webs, so you know where to expect her. I guess your post further adds to my point that the stealth mechanic didn't need to be remade at all, just eve's stealth skill (possibly twitch as well) nerfed so that purely roaming or camping a lane 2v1 wasn't worth it. Unless you agree w/ Riot that stealth needs an entire remake itself to work in LoL? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2012 18:03 rob.au wrote: A stealth clinkz etc is barely any different to your ad carry hiding in top brush instead of going bot. Eve had a stun + stealth at level 1. Broodmother is condtional on webs, so you know where to expect her. I guess your post further adds to my point that the stealth mechanic didn't need to be remade at all, just eve's stealth skill (possibly twitch as well) nerfed so that purely roaming or camping a lane 2v1 wasn't worth it. Unless you agree w/ Riot that stealth needs an entire remake itself to work in LoL? I mean, it's still hard to compare them across games because of the differing effects stealth ganks have on "passive gameplay". In LoL, if you feel you're at risk, you just back up and sit on tower. If the lane is pushing away from you, you reset the wave first. If your lane opponent wants to lasthit from a reset creep wave, he inevitably has to push the lane toward your side. So while you'll lose a few creeps, you'll ultimately still get a sizeable chunk of the XP and gold. A small price to pay for your safety. In DotA, this is not possible. If you give up control of even a balanced creep wave, a decent player will never let the wave push back to you. If you sit on tower and wait for your lane opponent to push, you're going to sit there for a very long time, and not get any gold/XP, because the opponent will be able to freely deny creeps and pull the wave back to himself. The cost of being able to sit passively on your tower is simply too high, so even with the threat of stealth ganks, players will still gamble their safety in order to maintain their ability to get gold and XP. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On February 23 2012 16:33 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Huge lux buff. Always loved her but she just was never good enough to be able to solo lane. Maybe she'll eventually get to the point of being a good ap. What buff is this? Lux has been fine, you just live and die based on how well you hit light bindings, and the average joe is bad at hitting them. After watching Loci play her a few times, I picked her up, and she's probably one of the champions I have the most fun playing due to the amount of skill required to be good at her. The difference between a good Lux and a bad one is huge. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On February 23 2012 17:56 gtrsrs wrote: lategame lux's ult is on one of the shortest cooldowns in the game, especially relative to its damage level. it is so short that it is MORE rare that you DON'T get 2 ults in one fight than you do. she has the second longest-ranged stun in the game and can check brushes with a skill lategame is not lux's weak point ryze's strength lies in his extremely long ranged Q, which is very hard to counterharass against. lux's spells are both longer range than his Q, and both (at least partially) can hit behind creeps. ryze has a very hard time approaching lux to harass - when he does get in range, her shield can negate part of his first Q with it's outward motion, and part of his second Q with it's return pattern, assuming he casts WQEQ and she shields immediately after he snares; this negates a large chunk of his damage and although he will come out ahead with repeated engages like this, her shield combined with her range should make it so this sort of exchange doesn't happen frequently enough that he can kill her by the time he has tear and cata he can bully her in lane as she tends to build a bit more glass-cannon, but who doesn't ryze bully at that point? The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On February 23 2012 18:51 TwoToneTerran wrote: The thing is, Lux's early cooldowns are huge and all her shit is skillshots, which can be dodged. Her auto attack range is much shorter than ryze's spell range and if she uses any of her skills on creeps, he can straight up rush her and catch her for a combo. It's like saying Karthus beats Ryze because he has "range" on him, when in fact Ryze just walks up to you and outdamages anything you can do at early levels. Using any of Lux's spells can push the lane, too, which leads to easy zoning if you try to be aggressive at all. Ryze has no problems standing near the melee creeps to nuke you when you go to last hit. As you said, once ryze has tear and just a health crystal he can bully her, but her early game isn't strong enough to compensate for that, either. It's utterly reliant on ryze just walking into your fairly slow moving skillshots that are easy to move around. If you're hitting your spells constantly then yeah, Lux can beat Ryze, but that's a big assumption and much harder to do in practice. It's a skill matchup that I think Ryze more often than not would come out ahead of. Lux maybe beats a ryze who doesn't start boots, but that is a bad ryze. I don't see how any competent ryze can't just farm up just as easily as lux head to head and he also has the benefit of scaling better and being a better lane to gank for (Lux has no equivalent to flash w to ensure kills). It's not a hopeless matchup for Lux, but, to put it another way, if I first pick ryze and I see my opponent counter me with Lux, I'm not that worried. In lane, Lux just feels like a weaker Brand to me. Cooldowns being long and short autoattack range may be true, but anytime someone says CHAMPION X DOESNT COUNTER CHAMPION Y BECAUSE SKILLSHOTS CAN BE DODGE I just facepalm. One of the dumbest arguments there are. By your logic, cass is one of the weakest champions in the game because she relies heavily on skillshots. Better buff cassi then or she's gonna get rolled by everyone. | ||
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LoCicero
1100 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Also, who plays Nautilus top? I haven't had the opportunity to do it much, and I was camped by the jungler early on in each game, so I couldn't really get a good grasp of it. RoA or philo/chalice->RoA seems standard start, and against someone who can't burst your shield effectively you can push easily and make good trades, but you're vulnerable to ganks if you push and anyone with a burst will destroy your shield and send the wave to your tower where your AS will screw you. I haven't tried maxing E before W yet, the cdr on W seems so important for its uptime. I was a bit surprised that I actually managed to beat down Akali pre-6 (she hit it before me and with a kill or assist thanks to the camping, so I don't know if that qualifies). Any idea of other favorable match-ups for him? Played Olaf against Nasus for the first time too, maxing E since invading them gave me a one level advantage. If he's working so well even without the headstart I'm gonna be so happy ^_^ finally something other than Panth to wreck the bastard with in my champ roster. | ||
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