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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 23 2012 10:34 Craton wrote:
Stealth causes claustrophobia. It prevents you from ever going aggressive in lane unless you already know where they are. Even with a pink ward there's a limit to what you can do because of how easily someone with stealth can get behind you. It's impossible to ward against an incoming gank and thus the only thing you could do was create a "safe" area in front of your tower that you never left. Past the laning phase it prevents you from doing anything unless you're in a large group or have an oracles, but even then only if you're strong enough to deal with said stealthed player.
For all these negative effects on gameplay, what benefits did it offer? Essentially nothing. I suspect that the real reason the stealth rework has been extended for so long is that their idea of stealthed champs ignoring wards and only being visible when near a champion (but at a reduced range) still suffers from basically every problem mentioned above. As a result, they've been forced to keep trying new approaches, but evidently not with much success. Ideally they'll just scrap the idea of permanent stealth altogether. I'd like to see all forms of stealth completely removed, but that's unlikely.
very well put. I was also confused about how the proposed stealth remakes alleviates the suffering of having like five square inches you can safely move around in in your lane. how is the remake better...? They die if you they facecheck you? Uh, ok, that's still not fun to play against, still the same problems, just now stealthers randomly donate some gold sometimes?
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On February 23 2012 10:34 Craton wrote:
Stealth causes claustrophobia. It prevents you from ever going aggressive in lane unless you already know where they are. Even with a pink ward there's a limit to what you can do because of how easily someone with stealth can get behind you. It's impossible to ward against an incoming gank and thus the only thing you could do was create a "safe" area in front of your tower that you never left. Past the laning phase it prevents you from doing anything unless you're in a large group or have an oracles, but even then only if you're strong enough to deal with said stealthed player.
For all these negative effects on gameplay, what benefits did it offer? Essentially nothing. I suspect that the real reason the stealth rework has been extended for so long is that their idea of stealthed champs ignoring wards and only being visible when near a champion (but at a reduced range) still suffers from basically every problem mentioned above. As a result, they've been forced to keep trying new approaches, but evidently not with much success. Ideally they'll just scrap the idea of permanent stealth altogether. I'd like to see all forms of stealth completely removed, but that's unlikely.
Realistically, all stealth is is a blink. They function the same way. A bunch of champs have blinks, but its built around the rest of their kit having some drawback. Problem with stealth chars is they never quite got the rest of the kit right.
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Either you build the kit around utilizing permenant stealth, which is very difficult to make non-frustrating (see former Eve) and doesn't have a lot of interesting counter-play, or you don't, which makes the whole stealth component shallow and pointless.
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On February 23 2012 10:59 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 10:34 Craton wrote:
Stealth causes claustrophobia. It prevents you from ever going aggressive in lane unless you already know where they are. Even with a pink ward there's a limit to what you can do because of how easily someone with stealth can get behind you. It's impossible to ward against an incoming gank and thus the only thing you could do was create a "safe" area in front of your tower that you never left. Past the laning phase it prevents you from doing anything unless you're in a large group or have an oracles, but even then only if you're strong enough to deal with said stealthed player.
For all these negative effects on gameplay, what benefits did it offer? Essentially nothing. I suspect that the real reason the stealth rework has been extended for so long is that their idea of stealthed champs ignoring wards and only being visible when near a champion (but at a reduced range) still suffers from basically every problem mentioned above. As a result, they've been forced to keep trying new approaches, but evidently not with much success. Ideally they'll just scrap the idea of permanent stealth altogether. I'd like to see all forms of stealth completely removed, but that's unlikely. Realistically, all stealth is is a blink. They function the same way. A bunch of champs have blinks, but its built around the rest of their kit having some drawback. Problem with stealth chars is they never quite got the rest of the kit right.
saying stealth is like a blink is like saying stuns and roots are the same. steaths have a time component to them, if twitch could cover the same distances he does with stealth now, but instantly he would be the most overpowered hero ever.
im also in favour of stealth being super super short term, in the 1-3 second range.
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Stealth is nothing like blink. You don't blink from one side of the map to another without being seen by wards. At best you can get over very narrow ridges which generally still allows you to be spotted. They aren't even close to similar mechanics.
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On February 23 2012 11:13 Craton wrote:
Stealth is nothing like blink. You don't blink from one side of the map to another without being seen by wards. At best you can get over very narrow ridges which generally still allows you to be spotted. They aren't even close to similar mechanics.
A champion ends up right next to you before you were fully aware of their presence. For ganking purposes, yes, it is basically the same mechanic- using the lack of ability to detect movement to get close to someone only instead of being instantaneous, you simply cant be seen.
But the end result is the same- you end up next to an enemy without them being aware or able to react.
Obviously there are some differences in application when it comes to ward interaction, but when it comes to the most frustrating aspect of stealth (ganks) they function similarly. Hell, stealth is easier to stop in ganks than blinks like LS or WW.
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ganking as stealth
sit in a bush, they move out of position, activate move to them, oh fuck they are kinda safer now, do i risk it or do i just go back to bush try again in 10 seconds?
ganking with blink
they are out of position, ok theyre dead.
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On February 23 2012 11:19 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 11:13 Craton wrote:
Stealth is nothing like blink. You don't blink from one side of the map to another without being seen by wards. At best you can get over very narrow ridges which generally still allows you to be spotted. They aren't even close to similar mechanics. A champion ends up right next to you before you were fully aware of their presence. For ganking purposes, yes, it is basically the same mechanic- using the lack of ability to detect movement to get close to someone only instead of being instantaneous, you simply cant be seen. But the end result is the same- you end up next to an enemy without them being aware or able to react. Obviously there are some differences in application when it comes to ward interaction, but when it comes to the most frustrating aspect of stealth (ganks) they function similarly. Hell, stealth is easier to stop in ganks than blinks like LS or WW.
It definitely isn't. You can ward against blink-type ganks with a single ward depending on the situation, but warding against stealth is going to require at least 2x the amount of wards, and have a much higher cost. The idea behind stealth removal was that you couldn't both efficiently AND effectively protect yourself from champions popping out of nowhere and destroying you. You can easily do that for ganks. If you couldn't, there would be so much more bitching about junglers and roaming would probably be more popular.
Edit: Even with no wards on the map, you still have to be standing near brush (but not near enough to see an entrance to it) for WW or any champion that happens to be able to instantly move to you without you seeing them beforehand, whereas stealth ganks can come at anytime even if you are standing in a completely open area with full vision around you. That's what causes the fear that forces cautious play just by simply having a champion with the ability to stealth. They can sit in the jungle farming all day and have still the pressure of a jungler which is constantly ganking.
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On February 23 2012 11:27 turdburgler wrote:
ganking as stealth
sit in a bush, they move out of position, activate move to them, oh fuck they are kinda safer now, do i risk it or do i just go back to bush try again in 10 seconds?
ganking with blink
they are out of position, ok theyre dead.
ganking as stealth
they are out of position, ok theyre dead
ganking with blink
they are out of position, ok theyre dead
or
ganking as stealth
sit in a bush, they move out of position, activate move to them, oh fuck they are kinda safer now, do i risk it or do i just go back to bush try again in 10 seconds?
ganking with blink
sit in a bush, they move out of position, they move out of range, they saw me, cant do anything.
Your point?
I agree stealth is more powerful because it has more options, but in the actual mechanics of a gank- you are not relying on cc to get close, you are relying on the enemy being unaware of you until you get into range- stealth and blinks function exactly the same to an enemy player. All of a sudden you have an extra person on you.
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Those saying wards don't work against Stealth ganks, did you ever... try them? Just curious. Not even pink wards. Just do Rammus warding (An extra bit out)
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smart players will stealth from a farther distance away when their durations can sustain that kind of play
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It's the fact that stealth is faaaar more easier to jump someone with that makes it a different mechanic. A silence and a stun both leave you unable to cast spells, but they aren't the same mechanic. They fall under the same category (CC), maybe that's more what you're looking for.
And there are extra entrances to lanes where you normally wouldn't ward against because you have vision of them naturally (the middle of the lane, entrance from opponent's tower) that stealth champions can go through to catch you anyway. You'd need 2-3 green wards placed far out, and 1 pink in lane to be completely safe.
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On February 23 2012 11:40 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Those saying wards don't work against Stealth ganks, did you ever... try them? Just curious. Not even pink wards. Just do Rammus warding (An extra bit out)
I was going to say something sarcastic, but I should ask if you are serious. You are asking if over 200,000 people couldn't figure out how to ward against someone like eve to stop her from ganking them. And that includes the really high rated players. Maybe you just weren't playing when eve won almost ever single game she was played in regardless of elo.
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Soraka Bot comes to mind...
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On February 23 2012 11:47 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 11:40 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Those saying wards don't work against Stealth ganks, did you ever... try them? Just curious. Not even pink wards. Just do Rammus warding (An extra bit out) I was going to say something sarcastic, but I should ask if you are serious. You are asking if over 200,000 people couldn't figure out how to ward against someone like eve to stop her from ganking them. And that includes the really high rated players. Maybe you just weren't playing when eve won almost ever single game she was played in regardless of elo.
To be fair, eve didnt wreak high level players. She just made the game REALLY not fun to play. Like at most 2 wards DO cover the entirety of the lane. Its just being forced to buy 1-2 vision wards REALLY sucks.
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blinking is not even close to stealth. Warding against twitch and eve is so much harder than warding against a blinker, it's ridiculous.
On February 23 2012 11:52 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 11:47 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 23 2012 11:40 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Those saying wards don't work against Stealth ganks, did you ever... try them? Just curious. Not even pink wards. Just do Rammus warding (An extra bit out) I was going to say something sarcastic, but I should ask if you are serious. You are asking if over 200,000 people couldn't figure out how to ward against someone like eve to stop her from ganking them. And that includes the really high rated players. Maybe you just weren't playing when eve won almost ever single game she was played in regardless of elo. To be fair, eve didnt wreak high level players. She just made the game REALLY not fun to play. Like at most 2 wards DO cover the entirety of the lane. Its just being forced to buy 1-2 vision wards REALLY sucks.
She destroyed high level solo queue and she got played in tournaments, I don't know what you're talking about. Your standards are... I just don't know.
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On February 23 2012 11:52 UniversalSnip wrote:blinking is not even close to stealth. Warding against twitch and eve is so much harder than warding against a blinker, it's ridiculous. Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 11:52 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 23 2012 11:47 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 23 2012 11:40 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Those saying wards don't work against Stealth ganks, did you ever... try them? Just curious. Not even pink wards. Just do Rammus warding (An extra bit out) I was going to say something sarcastic, but I should ask if you are serious. You are asking if over 200,000 people couldn't figure out how to ward against someone like eve to stop her from ganking them. And that includes the really high rated players. Maybe you just weren't playing when eve won almost ever single game she was played in regardless of elo. To be fair, eve didnt wreak high level players. She just made the game REALLY not fun to play. Like at most 2 wards DO cover the entirety of the lane. Its just being forced to buy 1-2 vision wards REALLY sucks. She destroyed high level solo queue and she got played in tournaments, I don't know what you're talking about. Your standards are ridiculous or something.
I remember shaco being picked in tourneys and solo q. Only time I ever recall eve being played was by 3xecutioner, and I cant recall a single tourney I saw her played, as far back as Dreamhack 2010.
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Why is Chaox suggestion flat AD marks and quints on every AD carry? Arp marks fall out of favor all of a sudden?
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On February 23 2012 12:00 Offhand wrote:
Why is Chaox suggestion flat AD marks and quints on every AD carry? Arp marks fall out of favor all of a sudden?
Easier to last hit.
Same reason he thinks MF the best AD carry, snowball metayo!
BAYLIFE!
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On February 23 2012 09:33 ninjakingcola wrote:
So does anyone else think they should have "Baller" skins for champs like Jarman, Ori, Grag, and Ziggs?
They need a version of Gragas where he's rolling bowling balls and drinking with an awesome league shirt... perhaps something like the Pin Pals from The Simpsons. Or maybe make him look a bit like Walter from The Big Lebowski.
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EPT
