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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
I realize Ahri is considered a top tier mid laner, but is she too strong? I am not great at this game but i have a 75% w/l with her and a 4:1:1 KDA ratio. She just seems really really strong.
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On February 22 2012 07:49 Bladeorade wrote:
I realize Ahri is considered a top tier mid laner, but is she too strong? I am not great at this game but i have a 75% w/l with her and a 4:1:1 KDA ratio. She just seems really really strong.
lb straight counters her. But almost no one plays leblanc so ahri gets to run rampant. Kass is an OK pick against her, though you should expect to get harassed a lot if you get pushed to the turret. Cass and ori have almost the same range. Lots of ways to stop her, it's just you only really have one common option that people play that does well against ahri.
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Meh, If Shyv is good with 50 free resists, olaf should be happy with 60.
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I think it's less that she's too good and more that she's hard to mess up with. Her abilities like to auto lock on champs, her Q is very easy to land, and so is her Charm. Unlike someone like Brand, who can mess up his combo easily by missing Q or W or getting off a bad Ult, it's very hard to mess up Ahri's.
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On February 22 2012 07:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh, If Shyv is good with 50 free resists, olaf should be happy with 60.
Shyvana's ult lasts nearly three times as long as Olaf's, even if you don't get a single auto-attack off. She also gets half her bonuses while not in Dragon form, and its effective cooldown is lower. If the goal is to make Olaf Shyvana-like it's questionable if this change will succeed.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2012 07:54 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh, If Shyv is good with 50 free resists, olaf should be happy with 60.
Shyv gets 25 of that passively, though, and her 50 lasts way longer than 6 seconds.
That's really not a comparison you can make easily at all.
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On February 22 2012 07:53 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:49 Bladeorade wrote:
I realize Ahri is considered a top tier mid laner, but is she too strong? I am not great at this game but i have a 75% w/l with her and a 4:1:1 KDA ratio. She just seems really really strong.
lb straight counters her. But almost no one plays leblanc so ahri gets to run rampant. Kass is an OK pick against her, though you should expect to get harassed a lot if you get pushed to the turret. Cass and ori have almost the same range. Lots of ways to stop her, it's just you only really have one common option that people play that does well against ahri. eh..every time I've see someone pick lb into ahri the lb always somehow does really bad. I have no experience with that matchup, just a trend I tend to see.
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On February 22 2012 07:53 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:49 Bladeorade wrote:
I realize Ahri is considered a top tier mid laner, but is she too strong? I am not great at this game but i have a 75% w/l with her and a 4:1:1 KDA ratio. She just seems really really strong.
lb straight counters her. But almost no one plays leblanc so ahri gets to run rampant. Kass is an OK pick against her, though you should expect to get harassed a lot if you get pushed to the turret. Cass and ori have almost the same range. Lots of ways to stop her, it's just you only really have one common option that people play that does well against ahri.
You think so?
I play Leblanc and when ever I have tried to counter pick with LB it doesn't work out as I would think. I feel like Leblanc gets bullied pre 6 or at the very least it is even pre 6 and if she doesn't land that killing blow at 6 the lane is pretty much done. Ahri gets blue and can push from a safe distance and then go gank other lanes with ease. Leblanc can't push for shit and is forced to either cede minions or follow ahri. I don't think it's a great lane for Leblanc.
I have done well with Cass but I don't play Orianna and I dislike playing Kassadin I find him boring...I have also done well vs Ahri with Annie believe it or not. Annie can farm pretty safe, push lane okay with W and free Q's and can 1 shot ahri at 6 and has strong ganks as well. I know she isn't popular right now but I really feel like you have to hold Ahri in place for at least 2 seconds if you want to kill her so I like Annie.
Another I have tried is Ryze and in theory it worked in my head, QWQ back off, it just didnt work. Same issue as leblanc with the pushing and getting ahead earlier.
I don't know if this belongs in the Ahri thread?
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On February 22 2012 07:10 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes). Made a spreadsheet to check breakpoints. It turns out that it might turn out to be an overall nerf against incoming damage if you've made any effort to build resists at all. I don't have enough excel skill to make a graph though =(. right side number is when the new ragnarok@18(base incoming damage) will be better. 80 resist - 300+ 120 resist - 400+ 160 resist - somewhere ~550+ 200 resist - 700+ 240 resist - 900+ 300 resist - 1200+ With just mercs+wriggles+atmas+runes/masteries it's about 180 armor and 110 mr. New one is a buff, only if you don't build more resistances than normal.
How'd you get to those numbers? My break-even points are lower, based on some quick pen-and-paper stuff. I may have forgotten other influences though.
Assuming armor, damage, and flat reduction are the only things that matter, and that flat damage reduction is applied last, I get to the breakeven point:
x = (flat damage reduction) / (1/(1+(pre-ult-armor/100)) - 1/(1+(post-ult-armor/100)))
(Armor and mres work interchangeably here for physical vs magical damage)
Ult at lowest level:
20 flat damage reduction vs 30 armor, and given base armor of 80: x = 252
Ult at highest level:
40 flat damage reduction vs 60 armor, and given base armor of 80: x = 288
How did you get to the 300+ number for 80 resists? The values for other levels are also lower than what you calculated.
My calculation might be wrong, but since it seemed so simple I'd be curious to know what I forgot
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Keep in mind that Olaf is inherently better off against Dots and similar damage due to his W and passive. The changes could be really good, especially since Olaf is a secret tip already.
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On February 22 2012 08:07 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:10 Amui wrote:On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes). Made a spreadsheet to check breakpoints. It turns out that it might turn out to be an overall nerf against incoming damage if you've made any effort to build resists at all. I don't have enough excel skill to make a graph though =(. right side number is when the new ragnarok@18(base incoming damage) will be better. 80 resist - 300+ 120 resist - 400+ 160 resist - somewhere ~550+ 200 resist - 700+ 240 resist - 900+ 300 resist - 1200+ With just mercs+wriggles+atmas+runes/masteries it's about 180 armor and 110 mr. New one is a buff, only if you don't build more resistances than normal. How'd you get to those numbers? My break-even points are lower, based on some quick pen-and-paper stuff. I may have forgotten other influences though. Assuming armor, damage, and flat reduction are the only things that matter, and that flat damage reduction is applied last, I get to the breakeven point: x = (flat damage reduction) / (1/(1+(pre-ult-armor/100)) - 1/(1+(post-ult-armor/100))) (Armor and mres work interchangeably here for physical vs magical damage) Ult at lowest level: 20 flat damage reduction vs 30 armor, and given base armor of 80: x = 252 Ult at highest level: 40 flat damage reduction vs 60 armor, and given base armor of 80: x = 288 How did you get to the 300+ number for 80 resists? The values for other levels are also lower than what you calculated. My calculation might be wrong, but since it seemed so simple I'd be curious to know what I forgot
Yours is the much more exact way of doing it. I just made 2 spreadsheets where I input armor/base damage and it spits out how much damage it will do and compared the 2. Accurate to about 50 or so =P
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I just saw Oddone browsing TL on stream :D
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am i slow, or did Mogwai just get featured o.o
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On February 22 2012 08:23 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:07 bmn wrote:On February 22 2012 07:10 Amui wrote:On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes). Made a spreadsheet to check breakpoints. It turns out that it might turn out to be an overall nerf against incoming damage if you've made any effort to build resists at all. I don't have enough excel skill to make a graph though =(. right side number is when the new ragnarok@18(base incoming damage) will be better. 80 resist - 300+ 120 resist - 400+ 160 resist - somewhere ~550+ 200 resist - 700+ 240 resist - 900+ 300 resist - 1200+ With just mercs+wriggles+atmas+runes/masteries it's about 180 armor and 110 mr. New one is a buff, only if you don't build more resistances than normal. How'd you get to those numbers? My break-even points are lower, based on some quick pen-and-paper stuff. I may have forgotten other influences though. Assuming armor, damage, and flat reduction are the only things that matter, and that flat damage reduction is applied last, I get to the breakeven point: x = (flat damage reduction) / (1/(1+(pre-ult-armor/100)) - 1/(1+(post-ult-armor/100))) (Armor and mres work interchangeably here for physical vs magical damage) Ult at lowest level: 20 flat damage reduction vs 30 armor, and given base armor of 80: x = 252 Ult at highest level: 40 flat damage reduction vs 60 armor, and given base armor of 80: x = 288 How did you get to the 300+ number for 80 resists? The values for other levels are also lower than what you calculated. My calculation might be wrong, but since it seemed so simple I'd be curious to know what I forgot Yours is the much more exact way of doing it. I just made 2 spreadsheets where I input armor/base damage and it spits out how much damage it will do and compared the 2. Accurate to about 50 or so =P
Ah. I'm too lazy to use spreadsheets so I just do it by hand and type the stuff into google to solve it for specific values 
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On February 22 2012 08:30 CeriseCherries wrote:
am i slow, or did Mogwai just get featured o.o
Slow. Was announced awhile ago.
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On February 22 2012 08:07 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:53 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 22 2012 07:49 Bladeorade wrote:
I realize Ahri is considered a top tier mid laner, but is she too strong? I am not great at this game but i have a 75% w/l with her and a 4:1:1 KDA ratio. She just seems really really strong.
lb straight counters her. But almost no one plays leblanc so ahri gets to run rampant. Kass is an OK pick against her, though you should expect to get harassed a lot if you get pushed to the turret. Cass and ori have almost the same range. Lots of ways to stop her, it's just you only really have one common option that people play that does well against ahri. You think so? I play Leblanc and when ever I have tried to counter pick with LB it doesn't work out as I would think. I feel like Leblanc gets bullied pre 6 or at the very least it is even pre 6 and if she doesn't land that killing blow at 6 the lane is pretty much done. Ahri gets blue and can push from a safe distance and then go gank other lanes with ease. Leblanc can't push for shit and is forced to either cede minions or follow ahri. I don't think it's a great lane for Leblanc. I have done well with Cass but I don't play Orianna and I dislike playing Kassadin I find him boring...I have also done well vs Ahri with Annie believe it or not. Annie can farm pretty safe, push lane okay with W and free Q's and can 1 shot ahri at 6 and has strong ganks as well. I know she isn't popular right now but I really feel like you have to hold Ahri in place for at least 2 seconds if you want to kill her so I like Annie. Another I have tried is Ryze and in theory it worked in my head, QWQ back off, it just didnt work. Same issue as leblanc with the pushing and getting ahead earlier. I don't know if this belongs in the Ahri thread?
I don't know how to play LB, but every time she's been picked against ahri it's been pure rape that just gets worse after 6. I have done annie against ahri and she can farm easily, ryze just gets shit on because he has almost 250 less range.
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On February 22 2012 08:16 Unentschieden wrote:
Keep in mind that Olaf is inherently better off against Dots and similar damage due to his W and passive. The changes could be really good, especially since Olaf is a secret tip already.
Olaf's passive and W can not remotely compare his ult's current abuse cases.
To explain, assume you're a Malzahar with 400 AP, Sorc Boots, MPen Marks, and Void Staff+Mastery for % Penetration. Your Malefic Visions does 640 damage over 4 seconds, pretty nasty. How much damage do you think Olaf will take if he has 150 MR before penetration?
The answer: 77, or 61 if he also has the Indomitable mastery.
That is why the ult is being changed, it is absolutely ridiculous against period damage. If Olaf's W and Passive were capable of making up for the loss of that mitigation they'd be getting nerfed as well.
Edit: This is incidentally also why Malzahar and Swain are so good against Poppy. Because all of their damage is in tiny increments it largely bypasses her passive.
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Actually I'm pretty sure the ult change has nothing to do with the abuse cases (since nobody plays him and therefore nobody is abusing it) and more to do with trying to make him a more viable pick overall.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2012 08:53 Craton wrote:
Actually I'm pretty sure the ult change has nothing to do with the abuse cases (since nobody plays him and therefore nobody is abusing it) and more to do with trying to make him a more viable pick overall.
Then why did they pick armor/MR values that are an overall survivability nerf in most scenarios?
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EPT
