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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night.
yea I mistyped and edited my post.
quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD.
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On February 22 2012 05:10 BlackPaladin wrote:
With Ori you get to smack people around with HER balls.
With Ahri you get to be a slutty fox that charms people and acts like the village bike with how she's everywhere when she ults.
YOU DECIDE.
I'll smash slutty fox with my balls!
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United States33802 Posts
About the only person I get MBR on anymore is Teemo for lulzy OH build. Maybe I'd do it for Kayle too if I played her, but I don't :|
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On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD.
TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect.
So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes).
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On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes).
I thought it was Reduction -> Pen -> Percent Pen. Ill go surfing through the last pages and riots page.
Edit:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=110048
Is that thread still relevant?
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On February 22 2012 06:59 WirelessWaffle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes). I thought it was Reduction -> Pen -> Percent Pen. Ill go surfing through the last pages and riots page. Edit:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=110048 Is that thread still relevant?
Yeah I was a bit confused too. Which is why I looked it up.
Armor penetration/reduction and flat damage reduction are two different things. You are talking about armor penetration which is an offensive thing.
Flat damage reduction is a defensive thing.
Olaf's ult was awesick before the change... can't believe I didn't realize it.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes).
Yeah I got confused because flat damage reduction applies before resists in DotA and I got myself mixed up.
@Hidden_MotiveS: could you link the wiki page that says that flat reductions apply after resists? I was looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it.
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Ahh my bad, the names are too similar for my feeble mind. =P
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The idea that flat reduction applies after resistances goes against everything I've ever known.
WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE IN NOW?!
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yea, in lol it definitely applies after. easiest to see with 21 defensive amumu with tantrum and a bunch of armor. see 0 damage ticks pop up vs. creeps all day.
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On February 22 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes). Yeah I got confused because flat damage reduction applies before resists in DotA and I got myself mixed up. @Hidden_MotiveS: could you link the wiki page that says that flat reductions apply after resists? I was looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reduction
Very bottom of the page
Yango you misled me D:
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On February 22 2012 07:08 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes). Yeah I got confused because flat damage reduction applies before resists in DotA and I got myself mixed up. @Hidden_MotiveS: could you link the wiki page that says that flat reductions apply after resists? I was looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reductionVery bottom of the page Yango you misled me D:
FYI I put that there after I tested the mechanics last night. I encourage anyone who thinks I might be wrong to test it for themselves.
If I'm correct it's not particularly surprising that Riot is moving away from Flat Damage Reduction. It really, really screws over champions like Malzahar because of how periodic damage is affected. Olaf literally reduces Malefic Visions' damage by 320 with his rank 3 ultimate, which is fairly overpowered in that context.
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On February 22 2012 06:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 22 2012 06:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On February 22 2012 06:23 Seuss wrote:
The Q changes are buffs overall. Without bonus AD the difference in max rank Q damage at level 18 is 8.55. The worst case is if you're level 14 and maxing Q last, in which case you'll be down 21.55 damage without bonus AD. However, W in that "worst case" yields 52 bonus AD at that level, which ends up being more damage than before anyway.
The nerf is really to Olaf's ult. I covered that a page or two ago, but to reiterate Flat Reduction is super strong late game and against periodic/split damage (e.g. Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Swain, Talon etc.) while weaker early on and against huge burst. The change will buff Olaf's early game at the cost of his late game, and make him less of a hard counter to periodic damage. I think it's the other way around. Buff to late game, nerf to early game. Flat reduction applies before resistances afaik. Reducing 40 damage from a 300 damage nuke/auto-attack is going to be less than the percentage reductions 60 armor/mr gives you. It applies after. Read it on the wiki last night. yea I mistyped and edited my post. quoted Yango's lovely mathcraft for reference + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:30 TheYango wrote:
Regarding the change to Olaf's ultimate, there is the possibility for it being a buff, because of how flat reductions apply before armor/MR. Here are the damage amounts (before resists) against which the new Ragnarok breaks even with the old one, assuming the given amounts of prior armor/MR (at higher damage amounts, the new Ragnarok is better, and at lower ones, the old one is better):
50 armor/MR - 80/95/110 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 16.7%/23%/28.6% damage reduction - breakeven @ 120/130/140 damage
100 armor/MR - 130/145/160 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 13%/18.4%/23% damage reduction - breakeven @ 154/163/174 damage
150 armor/MR - 180/195/210 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 10.7%/15.3%/19.4% damage reduction - breakeven @ 187/197/207 damage
200 armor/MR - 230/245/260 armor/MR with Ragnarok - provides 9.09%/13%/16.7% damage reduction - breakeven @ 220/230/240 damage
Against spells, it's pretty much a straight buff, because spells pass those breakeven damage values very quickly. Against autoattacks, it's a bit trickier because it depends on how quickly you're developing your resists compared to enemy AD. I would guess that overall the change isn't meant to be a significant buff or nerf, but just meant to make buying Warmog's or Mallet (which leave you with comparatively low resists) feel nicer on him. It also makes the skill perform more reliably overall--the survivability buff is stronger than before in situations where you're not doing well relative to the enemy AD, and weaker than before in situations where you're doing well compared to the enemy AD. TheYango did his math assuming Flat Reduction applied before resistances, not after. It's therefore incorrect. So as I stated before the PBE change is an early game buff and a late game nerf (as well as a nerf against periodic damage and a potential buff against large nukes).
Made a spreadsheet to check breakpoints. It turns out that it might turn out to be an overall nerf against incoming damage if you've made any effort to build resists at all.
I don't have enough excel skill to make a graph though =(.
right side number is when the new ragnarok@18(base incoming damage) will be better.
80 resist - 300+
120 resist - 400+
160 resist - somewhere ~550+
200 resist - 700+
240 resist - 900+
300 resist - 1200+
With just mercs+wriggles+atmas+runes/masteries it's about 180 armor and 110 mr. New one is a buff, only if you don't build more resistances than normal.
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K so I just do math on olaf q. Assuming my runepage (armpen/armor/mrlvl/ad) and a 0-21-9, maxing q first
At level 1 new q does 5 more damage: new is strictly better at all damage values.
At level 9 with a wriggles new q does 290, old does 268: New is strictly better at all damage values.
At level 18 with a wriggles and Triforce new Q does 320, old does 299: 20 ad breaks even between old and new.
So basically if you get a wriggles (30 ad) the new q is better in terms of damage.
All math subject to the fact I suck balls at math.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2012 07:08 Seuss wrote:
FYI I put that there after I tested the mechanics last night. I encourage anyone who thinks I might be wrong to test it for themselves.
That would explain why I couldn't find it. 
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Your math checks out. If you factor in rank 5 W at level 18 you get 381 damage for the new Q vs 329 damage for the old, a difference of 51 damage. There are very few reasonable scenarios, practically none, where the Q changes are detrimental.
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On February 22 2012 07:29 Seuss wrote:
Your math checks out. If you factor in rank 5 W at level 18 you get 381 damage for the new Q vs 329 damage for the old, a difference of 51 damage. There are very few reasonable scenarios, practically none, where the Q changes are detrimental.
What about the scenarios where people start to play triforce olaf, realize its really really good, and he isnt my hipster pick anymore. What about my feelings monty. Are those not detrimental enough to you?
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I classify your feelings under unreasonable scenarios. Take your QQ to Dr. Mundo's psycho-therapy.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2012 07:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:29 Seuss wrote:
Your math checks out. If you factor in rank 5 W at level 18 you get 381 damage for the new Q vs 329 damage for the old, a difference of 51 damage. There are very few reasonable scenarios, practically none, where the Q changes are detrimental. What about the scenarios where people start to play triforce olaf, realize its really really good, and he isnt my hipster pick anymore. What about my feelings monty. Are those not detrimental enough to you?
To be fair, the Olaf ult nerf is probably as significant, if not more so, than the Q buffs.
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Since it is indeed my birthday in Korea, I will impart with you my favorite two botlanes to run (I main support nowadays). Leona/LB, and Blitz/Nunu. Please try them with someone you can communicate with, they're hilarious in normals.
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EPT
