On February 07 2012 09:40 Dgiese wrote: Sounds like both Yi and Tryn did stupid stuff...
Although, I do think a late game trist should shit on tryn and yi, kiting too strong. They both have gap closers, but she has two gap creators.
Kiting Yi is unnecessary. Simple right clicking after pressing Q works. With a Bloodthirster PD IE and speed steroid you get so much life steal and crit so hard that even a 6-Feast stack fully built Cho'Gath melts really fast (I've done it before).
Kiting Tryn is necessary when his ult is up, but when it's down it's just another Q + right click and say good night.
Let's say it's a Yi with warmog atmas PD PD Triforce BT... just hitting those 400 crits isn't going to be enough when Yi has almost twice your health and crits like 600-700s and you can't even run
Vs tryndamere you again can't just right click with Q and hope you outdmg him, you somehow need to survive for 5 seconds when he kills you in 3 hits which takes less than 2 seconds in total
You'll have to explain to me in clear numbers how a Master Yi building tanky can out crit and out damage a Tristana building pure damage and crit.
Without runes and masteries as I was lazy:
Let's take Warmog atmas PD PD Triforce BT
2.5 Aspd and double attack every 7 attacks(In 1v1 I guess he definitely would save the passive proc for this right? Just like you'll assume everyone's ulti is up). Damage is 381 without runes and masteries with 100% critrate. The first alpha strike -> double strike with trinity force proc deals a total of 300 magic damage and 1690 physical damage.
3500 hp 128 armor. With LW you'll have about 76 armor left or whatever. 25% lifesteal
Trist needs some beast items
Also the thing about ranged AD carries is that although they're weaker in 1v1 they have the ability to shoot from a distance and not get attacked back whereas with melee carries you usually get focused way harder
I have Master Yi doing 311 with that build
Tristana with EXACT same build does base 1.91 aspd but 3.629 aspd with Q on. Base damage 297. 93% crit rate. Rocket Jump does 274 damage and ult does 545. Explosive Shot does 250 damage over 5 seconds while cutting health regeneration effects by 50%. Starts with 3411 HP.
Trist rocket jumps as the Yi closes in then follows up with ult and Explosive Shot. Trist takes more damage in the initial exchange but Yi is knocked back with life steal cut in half. Q follow up ends up with Tristana doing more DPS than Yi while Yi has to close in - even with ult Tristana has free shots. Yi meanwhile life steals for half of what Tristana life steals and takes about 1000 damage from Trist's initial 3 abilities.
In theory Trist would win with equal items.
In practice I don't know any Master Yis that use Atmogs AND Phantom Dancer/BT (usually Yis built tanky DPS with Wriggles and Atmogs or damage with BT/PD) and I won the exchange I had with a Master Yi that built pure damage (Infinity Edge PD BT Greaves etc.).
I'm not sure why you're even arguing about this >_> That isn't even a 1v1 build that's a normal build that I'd use in a real game just fine.
You named 8 or so champions that you claimed would easily defeat Tristana 1 on 1, I mentioned that I beat 2 of those champions in real games, you said that those 2 champions would in theory completely destroy Tristana in a 1v1 (claiming to crit for double Tristana's crit) and I asked for justification.
You are right in that the argument ultimately has no point, because in reality I dominate any bruiser champion late game as Tristana (if anything, BURST champions like most AP carries give me a hard time). Perhaps your theorycrafting holds merit in reality, in which case you've just discovered a new meta that makes AD carries obsolete and you should start using your Master Yi build in solo queue and climb to high ELO by popping R, Alpha Striking the enemy carries and not die because you'd have 3500 HP and be immune to CC for 12 seconds so you could just take out the enemy carries with your uber move speed and inability to be slowed or stunned.
Why all the sarcasm?
There's nothing magical about having a build that can 1v1 well against another (typical AD carry) build, and there's no reason to assume that such a build would have some sort of mysterious ELO-increasing capacity. There are also AP characters who, when fully built, can take down a fully built trist 1v1, that does not mean that those characters "make AD carries obsolete" and are some sort of "new meta".
It's actually not sarcasm. Sometimes new meta is created by people having the wildest theories and it works out. For example, IE was generally considered to be the first thing you're "supposed" to build on AD carries and now Genja has popularized the 3 Dorans into Wriggles build.
Likewise AD carries used to solo mid, and now the meta has shifted away from that.
Sometimes the theory has a point. As much as I don't agree with Shikyo I think that if his idea has merit he should test it out and see if it can start a new trend. Seriously.
wait, wait, you mean tanky dps is a new trend? =/
that's how you were always supposed to build yi. like every other melee in the game.
On February 07 2012 10:01 Kyo Yuy wrote: [quote] Kiting Yi is unnecessary. Simple right clicking after pressing Q works. With a Bloodthirster PD IE and speed steroid you get so much life steal and crit so hard that even a 6-Feast stack fully built Cho'Gath melts really fast (I've done it before).
Kiting Tryn is necessary when his ult is up, but when it's down it's just another Q + right click and say good night.
Let's say it's a Yi with warmog atmas PD PD Triforce BT... just hitting those 400 crits isn't going to be enough when Yi has almost twice your health and crits like 600-700s and you can't even run
Vs tryndamere you again can't just right click with Q and hope you outdmg him, you somehow need to survive for 5 seconds when he kills you in 3 hits which takes less than 2 seconds in total
You'll have to explain to me in clear numbers how a Master Yi building tanky can out crit and out damage a Tristana building pure damage and crit.
Without runes and masteries as I was lazy:
Let's take Warmog atmas PD PD Triforce BT
2.5 Aspd and double attack every 7 attacks(In 1v1 I guess he definitely would save the passive proc for this right? Just like you'll assume everyone's ulti is up). Damage is 381 without runes and masteries with 100% critrate. The first alpha strike -> double strike with trinity force proc deals a total of 300 magic damage and 1690 physical damage.
3500 hp 128 armor. With LW you'll have about 76 armor left or whatever. 25% lifesteal
Trist needs some beast items
Also the thing about ranged AD carries is that although they're weaker in 1v1 they have the ability to shoot from a distance and not get attacked back whereas with melee carries you usually get focused way harder
I have Master Yi doing 311 with that build
Tristana with EXACT same build does base 1.91 aspd but 3.629 aspd with Q on. Base damage 297. 93% crit rate. Rocket Jump does 274 damage and ult does 545. Explosive Shot does 250 damage over 5 seconds while cutting health regeneration effects by 50%. Starts with 3411 HP.
Trist rocket jumps as the Yi closes in then follows up with ult and Explosive Shot. Trist takes more damage in the initial exchange but Yi is knocked back with life steal cut in half. Q follow up ends up with Tristana doing more DPS than Yi while Yi has to close in - even with ult Tristana has free shots. Yi meanwhile life steals for half of what Tristana life steals and takes about 1000 damage from Trist's initial 3 abilities.
In theory Trist would win with equal items.
In practice I don't know any Master Yis that use Atmogs AND Phantom Dancer/BT (usually Yis built tanky DPS with Wriggles and Atmogs or damage with BT/PD) and I won the exchange I had with a Master Yi that built pure damage (Infinity Edge PD BT Greaves etc.).
I'm not sure why you're even arguing about this >_> That isn't even a 1v1 build that's a normal build that I'd use in a real game just fine.
You named 8 or so champions that you claimed would easily defeat Tristana 1 on 1, I mentioned that I beat 2 of those champions in real games, you said that those 2 champions would in theory completely destroy Tristana in a 1v1 (claiming to crit for double Tristana's crit) and I asked for justification.
You are right in that the argument ultimately has no point, because in reality I dominate any bruiser champion late game as Tristana (if anything, BURST champions like most AP carries give me a hard time). Perhaps your theorycrafting holds merit in reality, in which case you've just discovered a new meta that makes AD carries obsolete and you should start using your Master Yi build in solo queue and climb to high ELO by popping R, Alpha Striking the enemy carries and not die because you'd have 3500 HP and be immune to CC for 12 seconds so you could just take out the enemy carries with your uber move speed and inability to be slowed or stunned.
Why all the sarcasm?
There's nothing magical about having a build that can 1v1 well against another (typical AD carry) build, and there's no reason to assume that such a build would have some sort of mysterious ELO-increasing capacity. There are also AP characters who, when fully built, can take down a fully built trist 1v1, that does not mean that those characters "make AD carries obsolete" and are some sort of "new meta".
It's actually not sarcasm. Sometimes new meta is created by people having the wildest theories and it works out. For example, IE was generally considered to be the first thing you're "supposed" to build on AD carries and now Genja has popularized the 3 Dorans into Wriggles build.
Likewise AD carries used to solo mid, and now the meta has shifted away from that.
Sometimes the theory has a point. As much as I don't agree with Shikyo I think that if his idea has merit he should test it out and see if it can start a new trend. Seriously.
wait, wait, you mean tanky dps is a new trend? =/
that's how you were always supposed to build yi. like every other melee in the game.
Not tanky DPS being used at all, but tanky DPS replacing the AD carry completely.
As in, instead of having bruiser solo top and AD carry bottom, just have bruisers in both lanes and have the slightly weaker bruiser have a support.
People have tried unconventional things before like double AP and double AD carry, why not double bruiser?
Because without a ranged ad it's almost impossible to push down towers. If you don't have a ranged carry you have to fully commit to a 5v5 under a tower to push which just isn't possible unless you're already super ahead. The only reason the team with an ad carry would have to leave the safety of their towers is to contest Baron which means short of a bait the only way for your team to win the game is for the enemies to make a mistake or get bored. Again, if you get caught in a 5v5 at baron you're probably going to lose the fight unless you're super ahead.
You can completely counter double bruiser no ranged AD with champs like Anivia or Morgana who can just wipe an entire creep wave in seconds. Suddenly, you can't poke at towers because you'll get killed.
On February 07 2012 12:03 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Because without a ranged ad it's almost impossible to push down towers. If you don't have a ranged carry you have to fully commit to a 5v5 under a tower to push which just isn't possible unless you're already super ahead. The only reason the team with an ad carry would have to leave the safety of their towers is to contest Baron which means short of a bait the only way for your team to win the game is for the enemies to make a mistake or get bored. Again, if you get caught in a 5v5 at baron you're probably going to lose the fight unless you're super ahead.
Kind of overestimating towers... In a tanky dps team, all you need is a ~350 armor tanky dude to tank the turret and it probably won't even tickle him. For instance mundo with his ulti can just about completely negate a turret. Even so, ranged ADs indeed are the best for pushing towers and they also can generally build pure dps.
AP carries > glass cannon AD. Melee ADs are in range of AP carries far more often than ranged carries, and that's partially why glass cannon melee DPS builds don't work.
However on Yi for instance, warmog atmas or mallet atmas are generally all you need to be able to teamfight somewhat, even if you can't be the main tanker in the team. You don't need to build full tank. (For example in the last game I played with full defensive masteries and pretty defensive runes, I had 170 armor 105 mres 3000 hp, while critting mostly 500s and up with 2.5 Aspd. That's pretty powerful if you just avoid the gigantic AoE ults they might have.)
On February 07 2012 12:18 Shikyo wrote: Kind of overestimating towers... In a tanky dps team, all you need is a ~350 armor tanky dude to tank the turret and it probably won't even tickle him. For instance mundo with his ulti can just about completely negate a turret. Even so, ranged ADs indeed are the best for pushing towers and they also can generally build pure dps.
Quoting this because even for you this is kind of insane - all you need is 350 armor and Mundo/Singed levels of regen? That's begging the enemy team to focus on magical damage and blow the shit out of the guy who spent 10k on Armor items. I get the sentiment of what you're trying to say, but any team based around protracted fights will still have an advantage at the tower, even if you spend all your money on anti-tower defenses.
CLG losing to v8 in 2nd scrim of the night, HotShotGG speaks: "$1000 salary reduction if we don't watch the fucking replay at the end of the night." lulz. Jiji got caught a bunch of times, HotShot useless TPs all over the place, v8 playing really well.
On February 07 2012 12:03 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Because without a ranged ad it's almost impossible to push down towers. If you don't have a ranged carry you have to fully commit to a 5v5 under a tower to push which just isn't possible unless you're already super ahead. The only reason the team with an ad carry would have to leave the safety of their towers is to contest Baron which means short of a bait the only way for your team to win the game is for the enemies to make a mistake or get bored. Again, if you get caught in a 5v5 at baron you're probably going to lose the fight unless you're super ahead.
Kind of overestimating towers... In a tanky dps team, all you need is a ~350 armor tanky dude to tank the turret and it probably won't even tickle him. For instance mundo with his ulti can just about completely negate a turret. Even so, ranged ADs indeed are the best for pushing towers and they also can generally build pure dps.
AP carries > glass cannon AD. Melee ADs are in range of AP carries far more often than ranged carries, and that's partially why glass cannon melee DPS builds don't work.
However on Yi for instance, warmog atmas or mallet atmas are generally all you need to be able to teamfight somewhat, even if you can't be the main tanker in the team. You don't need to build full tank. (For example in the last game I played with full defensive masteries and pretty defensive runes, I had 170 armor 105 mres 3000 hp, while critting mostly 500s and up with 2.5 Aspd. That's pretty powerful if you just avoid the gigantic AoE ults they might have.)
Alright so your beefy guy is taking the damage. Now you either have to kill the other team or kill the turret. If any of your damage goes to the turret then it isn't going to the enemy team. Not to mention the fact that the defending side could merely run away. They can clear waves from well behind the turret out of range. The damage being split between enemies and towers is a big deal, and the enemy team has zero reason to engage you if you just dive past the tower. Also 350 armor is a lot to kill an outer tower. Eventually your AP carry should be able to punt down turrets with his AP building damage, but that takes forever. Good luck not making a mistake until then.
On February 07 2012 08:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Would it be possible for a bruiser built AD carry champion to beat an equally farmed normally built AD carry?
Post last whisper I'd say no.
Buying tankiness increases your 1v1 capabilites so I'd be tempted to say yes.
But the big problem will be teamfights : having a ranged auto attacker doing very high damage is highly beneficial for the team, and creates the whole teamfight dynamic.
I cant say I have actually tested every combination possible, but a 6 item trist pretty much shits on everything and everyone not named nasus.
In 1v1 if the tanky dps builds specifically for 1v1?
At least JAX, Yi, Tryndamere, Sion, Rammus, Gangplank, Xin Zhao, Shyvana are going to beat Tristana at 6 items imo, probably Irelia and Poppy too.
I don't think this is the argument. I think the question is, if you take a Ranged AD with regular ranged AD build, let's call it Zerkers, IE, PD, BT, LW, GA. Against a Ranged AD with a bruiser build, Mercs, Warmogs, Atmas, Trinity, Wits, FoN (or something similar) who would win.
If you remove wits and FoN that are bad and replace with Thornmail and Randuins Omen funny things happen even with LW.
Shit dude, do you even read? He said BRUISER build. He didn't say FULL TANK.
On February 07 2012 12:18 Shikyo wrote: Kind of overestimating towers... In a tanky dps team, all you need is a ~350 armor tanky dude to tank the turret and it probably won't even tickle him. For instance mundo with his ulti can just about completely negate a turret. Even so, ranged ADs indeed are the best for pushing towers and they also can generally build pure dps.
Quoting this because even for you this is kind of insane - all you need is 350 armor and Mundo/Singed levels of regen? That's begging the enemy team to focus on magical damage and blow the shit out of the guy who spent 10k on Armor items. I get the sentiment of what you're trying to say, but any team based around protracted fights will still have an advantage at the tower, even if you spend all your money on anti-tower defenses.
I've kind of found that currently that doesn't seem to happen so much that they have a ton of magic dmg. Personally I tend to just stack armor and HP unless they have like a triple AP comp or 2 APs who are fed. As every caster gets a Void and they tend to be more bursty it's usually more beneficial to go with armor and HP. With just mercs and mres per lvl runes you'll usually have around 100 mres, and with like 3500 hp as well that should survive most of the burst.
Obviously there's exceptions, but in general you'll be fine with stacking armor, oh and...
You just need one person to have the 350 armor or so, and that's not all that difficult to reach in the lategame. Don't even need that much armor as yeah the diminishing returns become so high after a while, but even so diving turrets isn't such a crazy thing that you can completely prevent it by just camping there or whatever
On February 07 2012 08:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Would it be possible for a bruiser built AD carry champion to beat an equally farmed normally built AD carry?
Post last whisper I'd say no.
Buying tankiness increases your 1v1 capabilites so I'd be tempted to say yes.
But the big problem will be teamfights : having a ranged auto attacker doing very high damage is highly beneficial for the team, and creates the whole teamfight dynamic.
I cant say I have actually tested every combination possible, but a 6 item trist pretty much shits on everything and everyone not named nasus.
In 1v1 if the tanky dps builds specifically for 1v1?
At least JAX, Yi, Tryndamere, Sion, Rammus, Gangplank, Xin Zhao, Shyvana are going to beat Tristana at 6 items imo, probably Irelia and Poppy too.
I don't think this is the argument. I think the question is, if you take a Ranged AD with regular ranged AD build, let's call it Zerkers, IE, PD, BT, LW, GA. Against a Ranged AD with a bruiser build, Mercs, Warmogs, Atmas, Trinity, Wits, FoN (or something similar) who would win.
If you remove wits and FoN that are bad and replace with Thornmail and Randuins Omen funny things happen even with LW.
Shit dude, do you even read? He said BRUISER build. He didn't say FULL TANK.
Warmog Atmas Trinity = Bruiser. You're supposed to build full tank after that, the Trinity is already pushing it. I wouldn't go wits end with that anyway, Randuins/Frozen Heart + FoN generally but Thornmail in that specific case.
a team without a ranged AD can avoid the whole issue of towers if it can consistently force objectives like nashor, dragon, red and blue buffs. If you're consistently able to win fights at those places, then you can get far enough ahead that you can eventually just dive them. (this is all theorycraft btw, this is not something i've ever tried, but this is how I would go about thinking about it)
alternatively, I suppose you can get super-poke AP champs like xerath, nid or gragas and then just build some other champs to protect them and poke forever, but then it seems silly to not include a ranged AD in that mix
IMO tho, what I think can really change up the current trends the easiest and fastest is simply sending different roles to different places. For example, tossing vayne top lets her crush a lot of melee champs who are very strong in top lane.
On February 07 2012 12:32 WaveofShadow wrote: CLG losing to v8 in 2nd scrim of the night, HotShotGG speaks: "$1000 salary reduction if we don't watch the fucking replay at the end of the night." lulz. Jiji got caught a bunch of times, HotShot useless TPs all over the place, v8 playing really well.
Game 3 happening right now.
i dont know how these pros cant see that they simply dived too much instead of using their CC to protect vayne.
same with SVs amumu "but guys, i always get 3 people in my ult but noone follows up" when he flash bandage ults them and his team takes loner to make it to the fight than his ult lasts. How can they not see that after over 5k LoL games played oO
On February 07 2012 12:18 Shikyo wrote: Kind of overestimating towers... In a tanky dps team, all you need is a ~350 armor tanky dude to tank the turret and it probably won't even tickle him. For instance mundo with his ulti can just about completely negate a turret. Even so, ranged ADs indeed are the best for pushing towers and they also can generally build pure dps.
Quoting this because even for you this is kind of insane - all you need is 350 armor and Mundo/Singed levels of regen? That's begging the enemy team to focus on magical damage and blow the shit out of the guy who spent 10k on Armor items. I get the sentiment of what you're trying to say, but any team based around protracted fights will still have an advantage at the tower, even if you spend all your money on anti-tower defenses.
I've kind of found that currently that doesn't seem to happen so much that they have a ton of magic dmg. Personally I tend to just stack armor and HP unless they have like a triple AP comp or 2 APs who are fed. As every caster gets a Void and they tend to be more bursty it's usually more beneficial to go with armor and HP. With just mercs and mres per lvl runes you'll usually have around 100 mres, and with like 3500 hp as well that should survive most of the burst.
Obviously there's exceptions, but in general you'll be fine with stacking armor, oh and...
You just need one person to have the 350 armor or so, and that's not all that difficult to reach in the lategame. Don't even need that much armor as yeah the diminishing returns become so high after a while, but even so diving turrets isn't such a crazy thing that you can completely prevent it by just camping there or whatever
On February 07 2012 08:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Would it be possible for a bruiser built AD carry champion to beat an equally farmed normally built AD carry?
Post last whisper I'd say no.
Buying tankiness increases your 1v1 capabilites so I'd be tempted to say yes.
But the big problem will be teamfights : having a ranged auto attacker doing very high damage is highly beneficial for the team, and creates the whole teamfight dynamic.
I cant say I have actually tested every combination possible, but a 6 item trist pretty much shits on everything and everyone not named nasus.
In 1v1 if the tanky dps builds specifically for 1v1?
At least JAX, Yi, Tryndamere, Sion, Rammus, Gangplank, Xin Zhao, Shyvana are going to beat Tristana at 6 items imo, probably Irelia and Poppy too.
I don't think this is the argument. I think the question is, if you take a Ranged AD with regular ranged AD build, let's call it Zerkers, IE, PD, BT, LW, GA. Against a Ranged AD with a bruiser build, Mercs, Warmogs, Atmas, Trinity, Wits, FoN (or something similar) who would win.
If you remove wits and FoN that are bad and replace with Thornmail and Randuins Omen funny things happen even with LW.
Shit dude, do you even read? He said BRUISER build. He didn't say FULL TANK.
Warmog Atmas Trinity = Bruiser. You're supposed to build full tank after that, the Trinity is already pushing it. I wouldn't go wits end with that anyway, Randuins/Frozen Heart + FoN generally but Thornmail in that specific case.
There are no diminishing returns on armor. The fact that towers have percent arpen is worth mentioning, but that is not diminishing returns. Also, I'd like to see a team engage 5v5 under a turret without an advantage and come out with the win. You don't start diving turrets until you have a significant lead because they are that strong.
On February 07 2012 12:46 zulu_nation8 wrote: a team of eves can avoid the issue of towers with the same strat
I don't get why you see the need to troll with just about every sentence you say here but Eve is a bad champion whereas most popular tanky dps like Shyvana, Jax etc. are good champions
On February 07 2012 12:18 Shikyo wrote: Kind of overestimating towers... In a tanky dps team, all you need is a ~350 armor tanky dude to tank the turret and it probably won't even tickle him. For instance mundo with his ulti can just about completely negate a turret. Even so, ranged ADs indeed are the best for pushing towers and they also can generally build pure dps.
Quoting this because even for you this is kind of insane - all you need is 350 armor and Mundo/Singed levels of regen? That's begging the enemy team to focus on magical damage and blow the shit out of the guy who spent 10k on Armor items. I get the sentiment of what you're trying to say, but any team based around protracted fights will still have an advantage at the tower, even if you spend all your money on anti-tower defenses.
I've kind of found that currently that doesn't seem to happen so much that they have a ton of magic dmg. Personally I tend to just stack armor and HP unless they have like a triple AP comp or 2 APs who are fed. As every caster gets a Void and they tend to be more bursty it's usually more beneficial to go with armor and HP. With just mercs and mres per lvl runes you'll usually have around 100 mres, and with like 3500 hp as well that should survive most of the burst.
Obviously there's exceptions, but in general you'll be fine with stacking armor, oh and...
You just need one person to have the 350 armor or so, and that's not all that difficult to reach in the lategame. Don't even need that much armor as yeah the diminishing returns become so high after a while, but even so diving turrets isn't such a crazy thing that you can completely prevent it by just camping there or whatever
On February 07 2012 12:33 Terranasaur wrote:
On February 07 2012 09:38 Shikyo wrote:
On February 07 2012 09:35 Terranasaur wrote:
On February 07 2012 09:23 Shikyo wrote:
On February 07 2012 09:09 Two_DoWn wrote:
On February 07 2012 09:06 mr_tolkien wrote:
On February 07 2012 08:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
On February 07 2012 08:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Would it be possible for a bruiser built AD carry champion to beat an equally farmed normally built AD carry?
Post last whisper I'd say no.
Buying tankiness increases your 1v1 capabilites so I'd be tempted to say yes.
But the big problem will be teamfights : having a ranged auto attacker doing very high damage is highly beneficial for the team, and creates the whole teamfight dynamic.
I cant say I have actually tested every combination possible, but a 6 item trist pretty much shits on everything and everyone not named nasus.
In 1v1 if the tanky dps builds specifically for 1v1?
At least JAX, Yi, Tryndamere, Sion, Rammus, Gangplank, Xin Zhao, Shyvana are going to beat Tristana at 6 items imo, probably Irelia and Poppy too.
I don't think this is the argument. I think the question is, if you take a Ranged AD with regular ranged AD build, let's call it Zerkers, IE, PD, BT, LW, GA. Against a Ranged AD with a bruiser build, Mercs, Warmogs, Atmas, Trinity, Wits, FoN (or something similar) who would win.
If you remove wits and FoN that are bad and replace with Thornmail and Randuins Omen funny things happen even with LW.
Shit dude, do you even read? He said BRUISER build. He didn't say FULL TANK.
Warmog Atmas Trinity = Bruiser. You're supposed to build full tank after that, the Trinity is already pushing it. I wouldn't go wits end with that anyway, Randuins/Frozen Heart + FoN generally but Thornmail in that specific case.
There are no diminishing returns on armor. The fact that towers have percent arpen is worth mentioning, but that is not diminishing returns. Also, I'd like to see a team engage 5v5 under a turret without an advantage and come out with the win. You don't start diving turrets until you have a significant lead because they are that strong.
Diminishing returns in comparison to buying more hp, especially considering LWs, is basically what I meant
EPT
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