[Patch 1.0.0.133: Ziggs] General Discussion - Page 55

On February 04 2012 22:00 mr_tolkien wrote:

Yeah. Only animals are black in LoL ç_ç

Why can't they make an afro-american char ? There are more and more of them in heroic fantasy settings (Final Fantasy, Tales of, ...), but not in LoL. LoL characters are nearly all European-looking, if they're human.

A Voodoo priest would be so awesome :o

PS : http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Tabu_the_Voodoo_Shaman

On February 04 2012 22:42 phyvo wrote:


Riot basically decided that Runeterra has no black people. People have been bringing it up in the GD forum for 2 years and at this point Riot's just ignoring them. I might feel more indignant but I'm not black and I don't know many blacks so I don't know what it would mean to them, if anything, to have a black LoL character.

On February 04 2012 20:06 Attakijing wrote:

and graves only proves my point. they finally release a male ad carry but they deemphasize the primary characteristics of ad carry: delicate (in character design and stats), long range, low utility...

ezreal is the only other one and he's an androgynous anime boy.

edit: leona is who i'm talking about. they said over and over "look guys a female tank!! holy shit!!" in the champ spotlight and release notes

On February 04 2012 22:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:

AD carries have low utility???? I always felt that AD carries were the most important character in super late game. Also, Sivir is one of the best AD carries right now and her range is even less than Graves (Graves has 525 attack range and Sivir has 500).

Also isn't one of the best solo top bruisers Irelia, who is female and has to get in close to do damage? Shyvana is also a really popular jungler/solo top who has to be close range to do damage. Neither of those two are really "riding a giant boar" or look conspicuous in any way. Akali is played mid and top and she too has to get in close to do a lot of damage.

Also, Alistar and Nunu are both viable supports and neither of them are female.

I apologize if this argument is derailing the thread, but I am a huge fan of Riot and I really don't think the company is deliberately trying to be discriminatory in its designs. Sometimes a champion happens to meet a stereotype but I think that is coincidence rather than deliberation. One could say that Lee Sin is racist towards Asians because "Why is Riot's first Asian champion a martial artist? Why can't we have an Asian champion that shoots guns or cast magic?" But as an Asian I personally don't feel that way.

When I see the champion pool I see a variety of designs which don't particularly suggest to me intentional stereotyping. Riot wants to make cool looking champions with unique designs and that is what I see.

On February 04 2012 22:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:

AD carries have low utility???? I always felt that AD carries were the most important character in super late game. Also, Sivir is one of the best AD carries right now and her range is even less than Graves (Graves has 525 attack range and Sivir has 500).

Also isn't one of the best solo top bruisers Irelia, who is female and has to get in close to do damage? Shyvana is also a really popular jungler/solo top who has to be close range to do damage. Neither of those two are really "riding a giant boar" or look conspicuous in any way. Akali is played mid and top and she too has to get in close to do a lot of damage.

Also, Alistar and Nunu are both viable supports and neither of them are female.

I apologize if this argument is derailing the thread, but I am a huge fan of Riot and I really don't think the company is deliberately trying to be discriminatory in its designs. Sometimes a champion happens to meet a stereotype but I think that is coincidence rather than deliberation. One could say that Lee Sin is racist towards Asians because "Why is Riot's first Asian champion a martial artist? Why can't we have an Asian champion that shoots guns or cast magic?" But as an Asian I personally don't feel that way.

When I see the champion pool I see a variety of designs which don't particularly suggest to me intentional stereotyping. Riot wants to make cool looking champions with unique designs and that is what I see.

I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!

On February 04 2012 23:06 AUGcodon wrote:
Its pretty easy to argue that Riot's game design is pretty sexist. Just look at how most female champions are dressed. And Its not just necessarily how they are dressed but the fact that THEY MAKE UP THE MAJORITY. Champs like leona(who still wear heels lolz), Sej, and Irelia is the exception and not the rule. Of course this problem is not unique to Riot and its pretty common to the gaming industry. However it still does not excuse them.

On February 04 2012 22:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:

AD carries have low utility???? I always felt that AD carries were the most important character in super late game. Also, Sivir is one of the best AD carries right now and her range is even less than Graves (Graves has 525 attack range and Sivir has 500).

Also isn't one of the best solo top bruisers Irelia, who is female and has to get in close to do damage? Shyvana is also a really popular jungler/solo top who has to be close range to do damage. Neither of those two are really "riding a giant boar" or look conspicuous in any way. Akali is played mid and top and she too has to get in close to do a lot of damage.

Also, Alistar and Nunu are both viable supports and neither of them are female.

I apologize if this argument is derailing the thread, but I am a huge fan of Riot and I really don't think the company is deliberately trying to be discriminatory in its designs. Sometimes a champion happens to meet a stereotype but I think that is coincidence rather than deliberation. One could say that Lee Sin is racist towards Asians because "Why is Riot's first Asian champion a martial artist? Why can't we have an Asian champion that shoots guns or cast magic?" But as an Asian I personally don't feel that way.

When I see the champion pool I see a variety of designs which don't particularly suggest to me intentional stereotyping. Riot wants to make cool looking champions with unique designs and that is what I see.

On February 04 2012 20:41 mr_tolkien wrote:

There is a clear lack of black characters though, and this is not a facetious post.

On February 04 2012 23:30 Shiv. wrote:
Seriously, I'm pretty sure that female characters have cleavage and are supposed to look attractive to, well, attract the 12-15 year old playerbase to spend some $$$ to get RP to buy them. Sure, you can discuss how character design reflects how sexist those nerds over at Riot are, but aren't there, like, more serious problems this world has to deal with?

On February 04 2012 23:24 turdburgler wrote:


theres a lack of blue characters, of green characters, theres no lesbian characters.

theres a higher population of trees that can talk than there are transgender character.

On February 04 2012 23:34 TheYango wrote:

Maybe there are more serious problems for the world. But certainly not for TL LoL General Discussion.

It's either this or gp10 on supports again.

On February 04 2012 23:26 pschiu wrote:
So..... how come they are ok that people can't tell visually from the classic skin whether Kayle is male or female?

On February 04 2012 23:30 Shiv. wrote:
IIRC, Fizz is supposed to be a girl. She's not dressed at all, which clearly indicates that Riot thinks of all fishy women as strippers and prostitutes. That's insanely offensive and soooo sexist. Discuss.

On February 04 2012 23:59 Shikyo wrote:

It's a boy though so that kind of hurts your theory



By the way women naturally have cleavage so that makes sense, however what doesn't is the fact that somehow the anorexic-looking women are strong enough to fight as champions, and also how the armors all seem to protect from nothing