On February 03 2012 00:28 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright, this is going to be a really long one, so I hope it doesn't get lost in the usual General Discussion stuff. I didn't want to make a new thread though becuase I'm not sure it deserves one. I would put it in blogs but I really want TL's opinion on this and I'm worried no one will read it.
My friends and I were having a discussion last night on our skills and recent events. Lately we've noticed we've been losing a lot more in normals than we used to. We've also noticed that whereas a couple months ago we were playing against unranked people (sometiems people under level 30) or fairly low ranked people in normals (who were still decently skilled, probably smurfing) now we are getting matched up with people considerably higher than us as a group, 14-1600 or so.
I figure the two are somehow related, except my W/L ratio in normals has remained stagnant forever (like over half a year probably?) Is the general populace improving? Do we just suck that much?
Related to this was a discussion on how to improve. We were watching Salce tear shit up on Orianna again last night and discussing the cs issue similar to the one discussed above (ie what is a good cs by 20 min) and were discussing how in pro/high elo games 200 by 20 min is more or less expected. And we have never really reached such a level, indicating that obviously there is much room for us to improve in that area. But upon analyzing Salce's play and our own we noticed something interesting.
The game we watched had a Morde laning mid against him. Whereas Morde is an excellent harasser very little harassment was taking palce. We noticed that in top lane as well. I always wondered why in my own games, it seems I have to choose between harassing and cs, and can't seem to do both at the same time to any effective degree. I was wondering, is this because I am bad? Probably. But I'm wondering if there is an elo factor involved as well. At my level, there is no such thing as a free-farm lane. Every laner is aggressive and harasses; they are not content to sit back and free-farm. In high elo games, it seems they play insanely passively, and just sit back and cs instead of whittling down their opponent to make a jungle gank easy; they'd rather attempt to 100-0% and dive when the jungler comes to gank.
Now hopefully people can follow my train of thought here. Obviously a player like Salce could play however he wants (either passive farming or super aggressive) and still win his lane/game at my elo, but to those of us who are less skilled, if we don't adapt to how the enemy chooses to play his lane, we will fall behind. All the discussion of matchups seems to somehow fall short in the face of this. If you play the matchup the way it is 'supposed' to be played according to high elo players at low elo, you may or may not win it, or at the very least it may not go the way you want it to because low elo players don't play the same way high elo players do.
I remember a little ways back I was having issues with Panth v Morde lane and everyone here told me Panth wins hands down, ezpz. But I couldn't do it for the life of me, against my friend who is considerable worse than me. I asked Smashgizmo, the resident expert to show me how to do it; he did and smashed my friend into the ground at level 1. I was never able to replicate this. (There are details behind this, but for the purposes of this discussion they're sort of irrelevant. I'll elaborate in another post if necessary.) I am wondering if this matchup had continued beyond the first 3 minutes of the game would Smash have easily have been able to farm up on Morde as well as cs? Probably....but it seems I'm missing something fundamental.
I don't think I'm an idiot, and I think by now I have a pretty good idea of how the game works. If you can wade your way through this jumbled mess of incoherent thoughts, please help. I really want to improve myself and my laning (csing, when to leave mid to help other lanes without losing your mid tower, dragon timings, harassing...etc) but I have hit a major wall and am seeing a few problems in both my play as well as how the (meta)game works at my elo that appear to be contributing factors. Is there something obvious I am missing? (I hope not.) Help me, oh wise subforum members!
Without any actual visual evidence of what you did wrong, there is nothing to tell. You can only give theorycraft like reasons, as to what you are not doing correctly.
I'm not just asking what I'm doing wrong, I'm also wondering if there's any merit to my thoughts discussion the differences between low/high elo games and csing vs harrassing or if there really is a very good way to balance the two at any elo. People's personal experiences are welcome here.
It all comes down to game sense, mechanics, and knowledge. What makes good players good is really so broad that its hard to define, but really the difference between a high elo player and you is that a high elo player knows exactly how they can make their trades in lane count, they rarely miss cs, and they know when they can play aggressive or when they need to play passive deducing from jungle patterns, the position of their team and map objectives, and map awareness. Thats just for the laning phase.
This is something I've heard before; if this is true, it's so subtle I don't see how I could possibly learn it. How can you learn exactly when to harass on and against every champ and when to cs while doing both nearly perfectly? How does one acquire that skill? If it's through practice I don't see how that's possible either because as you climb through the elo ranks, the same matchup can get played in very different ways.
Watch this video. I'll tell you exactly what chauster is doing. Maybe you'll learn something. This is how I learned how to play the game. Around 2:08 in the video, chauster kills the first creep. He does this so he can get a push going vs blitz ezreal. Blitz and ezreal are skillshot based, and it;s harder for them to land skillshots vs a pushed wave. And Chauster can harass them hard and beat them even if they hard engage with ignite exhaust.
2:15 missy gets hooked, but ezreal doesn't immediately switch to hitting her because he has to get a last hit. Chauster then puts his mouse cursor over blitz but his higher thought process is hit the ez. Ez has no heals to back him up, and is squishier. Chauster lands a q and autoattack on ez. Ez mainly had his focus on janna and then switches to land a hit on chauster. This happens within like one second. Ez lands a hit on chauster, but he moved up in lane to try to hit janna. In return, Ez takes an extra hit trying to run. He can't engage either because he took heavy chauster burst, plus chauster's summoners. After 2:35, Chauster's thought process is to hit ez every time he goes for a minion last hit. Most of the time, the enemy champion will be vulnerable going for a ranged creep minion because they are far back and their distance gets closer to you and you are safer/take less creep dmg, dmg overall, and you have a safer positioning when they go for those. Watch like 2:40 and you see that Chauster knows Ez's kit so he always stays behind his creeps to avoid q hits. He also hits the creeps a few times. This is optional, but he just wants the lane to stay pushed so he can get potential harasses and make it harder for ez to cs. Around like 2:55 chauster moves back. I think he was scared of the hook since he was so close to tower and moved back and hits creeps from maximum range. He also has only 2 creeps as shield in front of him. And there is a possibility of inc ganks. 3:15 you see Chauster constantly looking for opportunities to harass the ez when he goes for last hits. A lot of the time, you don't react to the moment. You can tell when an opponent will be vulnerable by looking at how they move and if they make a positional mistake, or when you see one of your own creep's health low. Then you know they're going to go for it, and when they do, you can punish them for going for a last hit. 3:40 gank comes, chauster does his initial q auto attack and tries to go behind a minion during his downtime on his next autoattack to avoid getting grabbed, but there's no minion to hide behind. He gets grabbed anyways but lands a kill.
4:50 in, chauster makes the mistake of trying to go for last hits when he sees blitz come through river into that brush. He gets grabbed and gets punished for like 1 cs. Not good. He has no pots, and no healer, so he has to try to play the laning phase during this time with like 25% health. He also could have just valkyried away. Then there's a messy fight 5:15 where blitz misses hook, and Chauster wins the engage with summoners, ez with suboptimal health, blitz doing like no dmg, and stronger items. And enemy used their summoners on that dive earlier.
And I disagree with Yangos post. If I see my jungler coming level two ganks, I will bait bad trades to have us both at 50%ish, (maybe him at 70%). It's a good idea to make disadvantageous trades if you know the lane will be in a state that your jungler can gank (for example he just got level 4 and double buff, has boots start, or just backed and bought boots, or is a strong lvl 2 ganker and you asked for a level 2 gank etc) and you know there's won't/is unlikely to.
EDIT: Lol at calling "don't focus the support, especially if he's the naturally most tanky champion in the game" a "higher thought process". Also staying behind creeps versus ezrael, and pushing versus a blitzcrank lane all pretty normal things. You can get away with this in bot lane because of your wards, and corki's naturally strong escape with his W.
Obviously I don't bait bad trades as in just jump on him straight away. I'll just hit him when he's going for his first CS, then back off and let him hit me twice since I run away after hitting him too slowly, (staying and 1v1ing is a bad idea since you probably are going to lose if it's a lane you'd target for a sucessful level 2 gank, and staying would make it obvious you are baiting) something like that.
When I play top lane after I haven't for a while, I get destroyed the first few games. I always get bullied because I just play scared of their jungler, and then they side step the jungler ganks with good game sense then hit me with a well timed brush gank when I'm pushing out. When I get more used to it I start to expect that kind of stuff, predict their jungler better, and learn to bait trades when my jungler might be looking at top. I once won a lane against a Jarvan as irelia at level 3 or something because he obviously wants to be agressive early and we just ganked him after I baited a bad trade and my lane snowballed the entire game and he went like 1/7 at the end of the game.
On February 03 2012 01:31 Slayer91 wrote: And I disagree with Yangos post. If I see my jungler coming level two ganks, I will bait bad trades to have us both at 50%ish, (maybe him at 70%). It's a good idea to make disadvantageous trades if you know the lane will be in a state that your jungler can gank (for example he just got level 4 and double buff, has boots start, or just backed and bought boots, or is a strong lvl 2 ganker and you asked for a level 2 gank etc) and you know there's won't/is unlikely to.
Then that's not a disadvantageous trade? Not sure where you're going with that.
Yes it is, you at 50%, enemy at 50-70%, it's a disadvangeous trade. Anyway, stop nitpicking, I stated disadvantageous trade and gave an ambiguous example. The example doesn't really matter, though.
On February 03 2012 01:31 Slayer91 wrote: And I disagree with Yangos post. If I see my jungler coming level two ganks, I will bait bad trades to have us both at 50%ish, (maybe him at 70%). It's a good idea to make disadvantageous trades if you know the lane will be in a state that your jungler can gank (for example he just got level 4 and double buff, has boots start, or just backed and bought boots, or is a strong lvl 2 ganker and you asked for a level 2 gank etc) and you know there's won't/is unlikely to.
EDIT: Lol at calling "don't focus the support, especially if he's the naturally most tanky champion in the game" a "higher thought process". Also staying behind creeps versus ezrael, and pushing versus a blitzcrank lane all pretty normal things. You can get away with this in bot lane because of your wards, and corki's naturally strong escape with his W.
Obviously I don't bait bad trades as in just jump on him straight away. I'll just hit him when he's going for his first CS, then back off and let him hit me twice since I run away after hitting him too slowly, (staying and 1v1ing is a bad idea since you probably are going to lose if it's a lane you'd target for a sucessful level 2 gank, and staying would make it obvious you are baiting) something like that.
When I play top lane after I haven't for a while, I get destroyed the first few games. I always get bullied because I just play scared of their jungler, and then they side step the jungler ganks with good game sense then hit me with a well timed brush gank when I'm pushing out. When I get more used to it I start to expect that kind of stuff, predict their jungler better, and learn to bait trades when my jungler might be looking at top. I once won a lane against a Jarvan as irelia at level 3 or something because he obviously wants to be agressive early and we just ganked him after I baited a bad trade and my lane snowballed the entire game and he went like 1/7 at the end of the game.
Makes sense, however I guess I should be clearer in that I'd say about 50% of the time (maybe even more? I dunno, low elo players lemme know what you think.) I can't depend on a good jungler gank. Reasons are many and include: All lanes being lost at once Jungler being bad and/or slow Counterjungling happening/failing to help during invasions
Yango's post gives a clear idea of how it is possible to win one's lane without relying on a jungler (though obviously there are many cases where this is not possible) or at the very least how to minimize the amount by which you are out-csed/out-harrassed.
Obviously proper ganking changes the dynamic completely, I just don't have that luxury a large percentage of the time, even when I play with friends and I can physically tell them when it's a good time to gank.
On February 03 2012 01:31 Slayer91 wrote: And I disagree with Yangos post. If I see my jungler coming level two ganks, I will bait bad trades to have us both at 50%ish, (maybe him at 70%). It's a good idea to make disadvantageous trades if you know the lane will be in a state that your jungler can gank (for example he just got level 4 and double buff, has boots start, or just backed and bought boots, or is a strong lvl 2 ganker and you asked for a level 2 gank etc) and you know there's won't/is unlikely to.
EDIT: Lol at calling "don't focus the support, especially if he's the naturally most tanky champion in the game" a "higher thought process". Also staying behind creeps versus ezrael, and pushing versus a blitzcrank lane all pretty normal things. You can get away with this in bot lane because of your wards, and corki's naturally strong escape with his W.
Obviously I don't bait bad trades as in just jump on him straight away. I'll just hit him when he's going for his first CS, then back off and let him hit me twice since I run away after hitting him too slowly, (staying and 1v1ing is a bad idea since you probably are going to lose if it's a lane you'd target for a sucessful level 2 gank, and staying would make it obvious you are baiting) something like that.
When I play top lane after I haven't for a while, I get destroyed the first few games. I always get bullied because I just play scared of their jungler, and then they side step the jungler ganks with good game sense then hit me with a well timed brush gank when I'm pushing out. When I get more used to it I start to expect that kind of stuff, predict their jungler better, and learn to bait trades when my jungler might be looking at top. I once won a lane against a Jarvan as irelia at level 3 or something because he obviously wants to be agressive early and we just ganked him after I baited a bad trade and my lane snowballed the entire game and he went like 1/7 at the end of the game.
If blitz is vulnerable to an auto and ez isn't, you're naturally going to try to go for blitz, if it's for free without any dmg, instead of risking creep dmg, and potential extra auto from ez to not "hit the tanky champion"
On February 03 2012 01:31 Slayer91 wrote: And I disagree with Yangos post. If I see my jungler coming level two ganks, I will bait bad trades to have us both at 50%ish, (maybe him at 70%). It's a good idea to make disadvantageous trades if you know the lane will be in a state that your jungler can gank (for example he just got level 4 and double buff, has boots start, or just backed and bought boots, or is a strong lvl 2 ganker and you asked for a level 2 gank etc) and you know there's won't/is unlikely to.
If you're baiting for a jungler, I wouldn't call that trade "disadvantageous" anymore. I don't mean disadvantageous from a strictly numerical perspective.
My point is that a high Elo player doesn't have to radically alter his though processes when approaching laning against an inferior opponent in lower Elo play. The same general principles still apply, and the fundamental dynamics of the matchup don't change, because those are determined by the hard-coded statistics of the champions in question--it's just that situations where the opponent will make incorrect decisions will arise far more frequently than in higher level games, but so long as he is already practiced in dealing with that, his general approach shouldn't change.
Makes sense, however I guess I should be clearer in that I'd say about 50% of the time (maybe even more? I dunno, low elo players lemme know what you think.) I can't depend on a good jungler gank. Reasons are many and include: All lanes being lost at once Jungler being bad and/or slow Counterjungling happening/failing to help during invasions
Yango's post gives a clear idea of how it is possible to win one's lane without relying on a jungler (though obviously there are many cases where this is not possible) or at the very least how to minimize the amount by which you are out-csed/out-harrassed.
Obviously proper ganking changes the dynamic completely, I just don't have that luxury a large percentage of the time, even when I play with friends and I can physically tell them when it's a good time to gank.
How to win lane without relying on jungler? Thought that's a no brainer. The more obvious question is how to deal with someone who's playing really agressive and in a 1v1 it would be stupid but *Fry.jpg* "Don't know if baiting or just really bad" How to win lane without relying on your jungler but given the possibility of his jungler ganking. (i.e every real game) is what you should want to know.
On February 03 2012 01:44 0123456789 wrote:
If blitz is vulnerable to an auto and ez isn't, you're naturally going to try to go for blitz, if it's for free without any dmg, instead of risking creep dmg, and potential extra auto from ez to not "hit the tanky champion"
Janna, got hooked, correct? That means it's a 2v2 engage. In the situation that nobody backs off you will lose every time fighting by focusing the support. Meanwhile if one side backs off they usually lose the trade because you get hit while running away. If I'm not mistaken ez is going to start going for the janna, which means you have a slight initiative going for Ez, he will probably react since janna will definitely be able to get away. Even is janna is low, and runs, and blitz and ez go for corki, janna being a "real support" can still help by shielding corki and autoing blitz from a safe distance.
On February 03 2012 01:57 TheYango wrote:
If you're baiting for a jungler, I wouldn't call that trade "disadvantageous" anymore. I don't mean disadvantageous from a strictly numerical perspective.
You're looking at this from a perspective of complete information. You're playing a laner against another laner who is playing aggressive. You stated "always go for good trades, if he's playing agressive and you out trade him you just win your lane". While you do not know whether or not he just doesn't know his lane, he's bluffing, or his jungler is actually nearby.
On February 03 2012 01:57 TheYango wrote: My point is that a high Elo player doesn't have to radically alter his though processes when approaching laning against an inferior opponent in lower Elo play. The same general principles still apply, and the fundamental dynamics of the matchup don't change, because those are determined by the hard-coded statistics of the champions in question--it's just that situations where the opponent will make incorrect decisions will arise far more frequently than in higher level games, but so long as he is already practiced in dealing with that, his general approach shouldn't change.
I somewhat agree with this. In lower elo the probability that they are "just dumb" as opposed to "just baiting" is higher, though, which means it's much more straight forward to always take good trades. In higher elo, you can assume your opponent knows roughly how the trade will turn out, but there's a chance you know the matchup better or can outplay him so that you might gain an advantage in lane, but you should still watch out for the obvious baits.
However, if someone pushes lane, you might be able to win trades, but not if the lane is pushed due to creeps, which means you have to decide very early on whether you think agressive trading early on is a bait for his jungler.
EDIT: Sorry for the triple post, kept hitting quote instead of edit, not used to getting this much "attention" on TL zzzz.
Makes sense, however I guess I should be clearer in that I'd say about 50% of the time (maybe even more? I dunno, low elo players lemme know what you think.) I can't depend on a good jungler gank. Reasons are many and include: All lanes being lost at once Jungler being bad and/or slow Counterjungling happening/failing to help during invasions
Yango's post gives a clear idea of how it is possible to win one's lane without relying on a jungler (though obviously there are many cases where this is not possible) or at the very least how to minimize the amount by which you are out-csed/out-harrassed.
Obviously proper ganking changes the dynamic completely, I just don't have that luxury a large percentage of the time, even when I play with friends and I can physically tell them when it's a good time to gank.
How to win lane without relying on jungler? Thought that's a no brainer. The more obvious question is how to deal with someone who's playing really agressive and in a 1v1 it would be stupid but *Fry.jpg* "Don't know if baiting or just really bad" How to win lane without relying on your jungler but given the possibility of his jungler ganking. (i.e every real game) is what you should want to know.
If blitz is vulnerable to an auto and ez isn't, you're naturally going to try to go for blitz, if it's for free without any dmg, instead of risking creep dmg, and potential extra auto from ez to not "hit the tanky champion"
Janna, got hooked, correct? That means it's a 2v2 engage. In the situation that nobody backs off you will lose every time fighting by focusing the support. Meanwhile if one side backs off they usually lose the trade because you get hit while running away.
If you're baiting for a jungler, I wouldn't call that trade "disadvantageous" anymore. I don't mean disadvantageous from a strictly numerical perspective.
You're looking at this from a perspective of complete information. You're playing a laner against another laner who is playing aggressive. You stated "always go for good trades, if he's playing agressive and you out trade him you just win your lane". While you do not know whether or not he just doesn't know his lane, he's bluffing, or his jungler is actually nearby.
I don't see what makes me stupid or really bad for asking, but thanks. I'm sorry that the immediate way of winning a lane while farming up enough cs for a Deathcap by 18 minutes isn't completely obvious and/or doable for everyone at all elos esepcially when considering possible losing matchups. And yes, by not relying on my jungler that still includes worrying about theirs.
EDIT: I just realized you were referring to the enemy laner about the 'baiting or really bad' comment, not me baiting you into a response. I apologise.
The thing is, it wasn't so much what Yango said rather it was how he said that made me realize a couple things about the way I play and how much nuance can go into when it is advantageous or disadvantageous to trade; and believe it or not, that is not completely obvious to everyone considering you may or may not have to know intimately: ability levels/damage champion matchups creep control jungler position
On February 03 2012 01:31 Slayer91 wrote: And I disagree with Yangos post. If I see my jungler coming level two ganks, I will bait bad trades to have us both at 50%ish, (maybe him at 70%). It's a good idea to make disadvantageous trades if you know the lane will be in a state that your jungler can gank (for example he just got level 4 and double buff, has boots start, or just backed and bought boots, or is a strong lvl 2 ganker and you asked for a level 2 gank etc) and you know there's won't/is unlikely to.
If you're baiting for a jungler, I wouldn't call that trade "disadvantageous" anymore. I don't mean disadvantageous from a strictly numerical perspective.
My point is that a high Elo player doesn't have to radically alter his though processes when approaching laning against an inferior opponent in lower Elo play. The same general principles still apply, and the fundamental dynamics of the matchup don't change, because those are determined by the hard-coded statistics of the champions in question--it's just that situations where the opponent will make incorrect decisions will arise far more frequently than in higher level games, but so long as he is already practiced in dealing with that, his general approach shouldn't change.
Actually, even from a strictly numerical advantage it's advantageous. It is already accepted that the jungler is coming, and so the upcoming fight will be a 2v1. Even trading at an uneven ratio that leaves you more hurt still lowers the enemy's health by a greater % than you + the jungler combined.
edit: I was going off the perspective of complete information, like Yango. I feel that it's easier to theorycraft in this way, and then apply in-game the probabilistic "risk" factor that comes with every unknown variable, since I believe that part falls under game sense, which is difficult to learn other than through experience.
I'm not trying to argue small points, I've lost ~200 rating in the past week or so and am interested in this discussion.
Yes, but then the jungler cc's you, you flash out, he follows you with red buff in the flash and you die. You will probably be behind in lane for the rest of the game. Good job with your advantageous trading. This is just another contribution to the argument which to me is just arguing semantics as opposed to how to lane effectively in real game scenarios, which is one of the most important things in being good at LoL.
And yeah, even if you know the matchup perfectly, but you don't pay attention to creep control, jungler position, and their closely intertwined relationship, you still will be in trouble. That's why I'm saying "Take good trades, avoid bad trades" doesn't help all that much because not only you might not be able to tell perfectly whether he is trading well or not but also you need to figure out how the creep wave control is going to go if you let him hit you but you don't fight back, or if the jungler is there and you do. If the wave pushes and your jungler can possibly gank soon it might be good to let him trade on you. You just avoid all trades for the next 20 seconds while the lane pushes, and you just saw your jungler going back and has red buff.
Remember setting your jungler up for ganks means you'll get more ganks. If you are always pushing your lane when the jungler finishes his route and healed up, you will never get ganks. Better junglers will watch lanes themselves and try to time their ganks based on their observations but it doesn't hurt to try to set them up yourselves if you are unsure if you can win the lane solo, set your jungler up and ping him in advance. (You need to ping that the position will be good for a gank WHEN he arrives, don't ping the second it's a good time to gank unless your jungler can magically teleport to your lane)
On February 03 2012 02:27 Mogwai wrote: Just do the Smash and always assume they're an idiot and then bitch about getting lane camped when the jangler is always there :p.
I tought you would definitively kill that Nidalee thrice before 5 minutes?
Makes sense, however I guess I should be clearer in that I'd say about 50% of the time (maybe even more? I dunno, low elo players lemme know what you think.) I can't depend on a good jungler gank. Reasons are many and include: All lanes being lost at once Jungler being bad and/or slow Counterjungling happening/failing to help during invasions
Yango's post gives a clear idea of how it is possible to win one's lane without relying on a jungler (though obviously there are many cases where this is not possible) or at the very least how to minimize the amount by which you are out-csed/out-harrassed.
Obviously proper ganking changes the dynamic completely, I just don't have that luxury a large percentage of the time, even when I play with friends and I can physically tell them when it's a good time to gank.
How to win lane without relying on jungler? Thought that's a no brainer. The more obvious question is how to deal with someone who's playing really agressive and in a 1v1 it would be stupid but *Fry.jpg* "Don't know if baiting or just really bad" How to win lane without relying on your jungler but given the possibility of his jungler ganking. (i.e every real game) is what you should want to know.
If blitz is vulnerable to an auto and ez isn't, you're naturally going to try to go for blitz, if it's for free without any dmg, instead of risking creep dmg, and potential extra auto from ez to not "hit the tanky champion"
Janna, got hooked, correct? That means it's a 2v2 engage. In the situation that nobody backs off you will lose every time fighting by focusing the support. Meanwhile if one side backs off they usually lose the trade because you get hit while running away. If I'm not mistaken ez is going to start going for the janna, which means you have a slight initiative going for Ez, he will probably react since janna will definitely be able to get away. Even is janna is low, and runs, and blitz and ez go for corki, janna being a "real support" can still help by shielding corki and autoing blitz from a safe distance.
If you're baiting for a jungler, I wouldn't call that trade "disadvantageous" anymore. I don't mean disadvantageous from a strictly numerical perspective.
You're looking at this from a perspective of complete information. You're playing a laner against another laner who is playing aggressive. You stated "always go for good trades, if he's playing agressive and you out trade him you just win your lane". While you do not know whether or not he just doesn't know his lane, he's bluffing, or his jungler is actually nearby.
On February 03 2012 01:57 TheYango wrote: My point is that a high Elo player doesn't have to radically alter his though processes when approaching laning against an inferior opponent in lower Elo play. The same general principles still apply, and the fundamental dynamics of the matchup don't change, because those are determined by the hard-coded statistics of the champions in question--it's just that situations where the opponent will make incorrect decisions will arise far more frequently than in higher level games, but so long as he is already practiced in dealing with that, his general approach shouldn't change.
I somewhat agree with this. In lower elo the probability that they are "just dumb" as opposed to "just baiting" is higher, though, which means it's much more straight forward to always take good trades. In higher elo, you can assume your opponent knows roughly how the trade will turn out, but there's a chance you know the matchup better or can outplay him so that you might gain an advantage in lane, but you should still watch out for the obvious baits.
However, if someone pushes lane, you might be able to win trades, but not if the lane is pushed due to creeps, which means you have to decide very early on whether you think agressive trading early on is a bait for his jungler.
EDIT: Sorry for the triple post, kept hitting quote instead of edit, not used to getting this much "attention" on TL zzzz.
If you read what I said, Ez didn't react fast enough to blitz pull. He went for a cs. Which means he didn't immediately move forward. That gave Chauster an opportunity of one auto attack to hit the blitz for free while ez was wasting his auto attack. During this time though, Janna moved away from brush, and Ez started to move forward. Immediately, Chauster moved his cursor from over the place Blitz was, to Ez. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
You act like everything is "common sense", but it's not for a lot of people.
Seems to me like quick reaction time more than higher thought process, though. If blitz hooks someone of course you expect the AD to react, if he reacts slowly you get to blitz the blitz once before Q autoing the AD,t hough.
I guess you're right, maybe I've played this game so much that I think things are obvious when they aren't. (I won so many games as support by baiting AD attacking me and focusing in on their AD).
On February 03 2012 02:31 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh man I saw you play a game last week against a Yorick and you bitched without even being camped by the jungler. My heart was sad for you.
I bitched about it being Yorick more than anything else (I was pissed about the early gank though). Yorick is a stupid asshole of a champion and should really be removed. No one has a good time playing as or against Yorick.
Having a problem here, my patch just finished downloading, went fine I think but when I go the play menu I cant search for ranked games. I can still search for normals but the ranked options are just not there. Anyone have a fix for this problem?
EPT
