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On February 14 2012 05:12 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:56 mordek wrote:On February 14 2012 04:35 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:20 BlackMagister wrote:
TOO has a heavy derp aura. Duo Qs with Gosu Pepper from M5, still have an extremely difficult game, Gosu pretty bad Anivia. The game was just as bad when he duo with Regi and they get double killed in their own jungle and then feed rest of the game but still somehow win. He went warmog instead of frozen mallet. He had no damage until almost 35 minutes into the game. They still won because the other team was even worse. Atmog isn't a viable jungle build unless you get super super fed, which his 7 assists didn't get him. 23 minute warmog way too late. Maybe if he didn't build 2 dorans first he could have finished it in a reasonable amount of time. He just purchased his warmogs with 3 dblades at 32 min this game. What do you think would have been a better purchase? Frozen mallet makes you almost unpeelable. Plus it gives you a little ad with 700 hp. It's the ideal bruiser item. Warmog is useless to a bruiser until you get atma's. Dblades are better on an ad who can better use the hp but doesn't build any items that actually have it as a stat. On bruisers dblades put you behind your good items. Atleast that's how it works for junglers. How is it, though? It's great on champs with innate resistances, but I'd almost always rather get something else on most bruisers. Phage is usually enough and in the vast majority of cases, I'd rather build that into a Triforce later on. I'm not a big fan of the whole Fratmas on Irelia either. Maybe if you go Phage->Wit's->Atma's->FMallet, but even then, I'd much rather keep the phage, build a Warmog's and Trinity later.
Obviously warmog gives more effective hp on a champion that gets free armor and mr. That isn't what was being discussed. TOO was playing ad bruisers, not tanks. And he was jungling, not laning.
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On February 14 2012 05:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
phage is no brainer, and sometimes it just feels good to be tanky, so i buy a belt, then when I go back to shop it shows I can combine those two items into one, so i'm just like whatever I like my item slots looking clean anyway. Oh and also I'm too poor and impatient to wait for another big item. That's usually my reasoning behind getting mallet. Hard to contend with I know.
honestly this is the number 1 reason to get mallet, no joke. its gold efficiency is dirt compared to triforce, but when your character can be tanky by just stacking HP, it makes sense as the follow up to Phage. That being said, the only characters who get really tanky off of just HP are Wukong, Xin Zhao, and Shyvanna (and Garen too I guess, but he needs damage and never auto-attacks). Oh yea, and also fucking Graves, people should play solo bruiser graves sometime, shit's really stronk. but when you're talking irelia, if HP is that important, just get a HoG and save up for late game, she doesn't need fucking giant's belt and omen is so important later in the game on her.
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i was under the impression irelia mercilessly abuses nidalee anyway.On February 14 2012 05:06 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:56 mordek wrote:On February 14 2012 04:35 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:20 BlackMagister wrote:
TOO has a heavy derp aura. Duo Qs with Gosu Pepper from M5, still have an extremely difficult game, Gosu pretty bad Anivia. The game was just as bad when he duo with Regi and they get double killed in their own jungle and then feed rest of the game but still somehow win. He went warmog instead of frozen mallet. He had no damage until almost 35 minutes into the game. They still won because the other team was even worse. Atmog isn't a viable jungle build unless you get super super fed, which his 7 assists didn't get him. 23 minute warmog way too late. Maybe if he didn't build 2 dorans first he could have finished it in a reasonable amount of time. He just purchased his warmogs with 3 dblades at 32 min this game. What do you think would have been a better purchase? Frozen mallet makes you almost unpeelable. Plus it gives you a little ad with 700 hp. It's the ideal bruiser item. Warmog is useless to a bruiser until you get atma's. Dblades are better on an ad who can better use the hp but doesn't build any items that actually have it as a stat. On bruisers dblades put you behind your good items. Atleast that's how it works for junglers. As someone who almost exclusively plays bruisers, let me be the first to say that if I didn't play Wukong and Xin, I would never buy Frozen Mallet.
you play xin? Let it never be said smash makes things too easy on himself.
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Never got the "building HP on Irelia" either (apart from Aegis maybe), I'd rather get Zeke's than Warmogs on her.
Also, holy balls are her duels with WW looong. It'd probably have kept on for another 10s if I hadn't brought Ignite with me. Too much sustain on each side.
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On February 14 2012 05:32 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:12 Shiv. wrote:On February 14 2012 05:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:56 mordek wrote:On February 14 2012 04:35 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:20 BlackMagister wrote:
TOO has a heavy derp aura. Duo Qs with Gosu Pepper from M5, still have an extremely difficult game, Gosu pretty bad Anivia. The game was just as bad when he duo with Regi and they get double killed in their own jungle and then feed rest of the game but still somehow win. He went warmog instead of frozen mallet. He had no damage until almost 35 minutes into the game. They still won because the other team was even worse. Atmog isn't a viable jungle build unless you get super super fed, which his 7 assists didn't get him. 23 minute warmog way too late. Maybe if he didn't build 2 dorans first he could have finished it in a reasonable amount of time. He just purchased his warmogs with 3 dblades at 32 min this game. What do you think would have been a better purchase? Frozen mallet makes you almost unpeelable. Plus it gives you a little ad with 700 hp. It's the ideal bruiser item. Warmog is useless to a bruiser until you get atma's. Dblades are better on an ad who can better use the hp but doesn't build any items that actually have it as a stat. On bruisers dblades put you behind your good items. Atleast that's how it works for junglers. How is it, though? It's great on champs with innate resistances, but I'd almost always rather get something else on most bruisers. Phage is usually enough and in the vast majority of cases, I'd rather build that into a Triforce later on. I'm not a big fan of the whole Fratmas on Irelia either. Maybe if you go Phage->Wit's->Atma's->FMallet, but even then, I'd much rather keep the phage, build a Warmog's and Trinity later. Obviously warmog gives more effective hp on a champion that gets free armor and mr. That isn't what was being discussed. TOO was playing ad bruisers, not tanks. And he was jungling, not laning.
This whole discussion started with you saying it's an optimal bruiser item. That's a whole different thing than saying 'in the situation OddOne was in, FM was the best choice because of XYZ.''
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On February 14 2012 05:40 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:32 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 05:12 Shiv. wrote:On February 14 2012 05:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:56 mordek wrote:On February 14 2012 04:35 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:20 BlackMagister wrote:
TOO has a heavy derp aura. Duo Qs with Gosu Pepper from M5, still have an extremely difficult game, Gosu pretty bad Anivia. The game was just as bad when he duo with Regi and they get double killed in their own jungle and then feed rest of the game but still somehow win. He went warmog instead of frozen mallet. He had no damage until almost 35 minutes into the game. They still won because the other team was even worse. Atmog isn't a viable jungle build unless you get super super fed, which his 7 assists didn't get him. 23 minute warmog way too late. Maybe if he didn't build 2 dorans first he could have finished it in a reasonable amount of time. He just purchased his warmogs with 3 dblades at 32 min this game. What do you think would have been a better purchase? Frozen mallet makes you almost unpeelable. Plus it gives you a little ad with 700 hp. It's the ideal bruiser item. Warmog is useless to a bruiser until you get atma's. Dblades are better on an ad who can better use the hp but doesn't build any items that actually have it as a stat. On bruisers dblades put you behind your good items. Atleast that's how it works for junglers. How is it, though? It's great on champs with innate resistances, but I'd almost always rather get something else on most bruisers. Phage is usually enough and in the vast majority of cases, I'd rather build that into a Triforce later on. I'm not a big fan of the whole Fratmas on Irelia either. Maybe if you go Phage->Wit's->Atma's->FMallet, but even then, I'd much rather keep the phage, build a Warmog's and Trinity later. Obviously warmog gives more effective hp on a champion that gets free armor and mr. That isn't what was being discussed. TOO was playing ad bruisers, not tanks. And he was jungling, not laning. This whole discussion started with you saying it's an optimal bruiser item. That's a whole different thing than saying 'in the situation OddOne was in, FM was the best choice because of XYZ.''
On February 14 2012 04:35 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Frozen mallet makes you almost unpeelable. Plus it gives you a little ad with 700 hp. It's the ideal bruiser item. Warmog is useless to a bruiser until you get atma's. Dblades are better on an ad who can better use the hp but doesn't build any items that actually have it as a stat. On bruisers dblades put you behind your good items. Atleast that's how it works for junglers.
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for the the phage mallet atmas build is just a good way to get damage fast on a bruiser without lacking tankyness too much. so if a champ really needs the slow then it totally makes sense. triforce is almost a pure dps item and doesnt allways suit the needs of a bruiser.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing that bothers me about Mallet is that it's just sort of a midrangey item. If you're playing a carry role, then you should be getting enough farm to finish and charge Warmog's and have Atma's in reasonable time. If you're playing a supportive role, then you're better off buying supportive items like Aegis and Shurelya's.
It's sort of a cop-out item for players that don't properly assess their team role and want to force themselves into a carry position without having the farm to back it up.
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On February 14 2012 05:42 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:40 Shiv. wrote:On February 14 2012 05:32 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 05:12 Shiv. wrote:On February 14 2012 05:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:56 mordek wrote:On February 14 2012 04:35 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 14 2012 04:20 BlackMagister wrote:
TOO has a heavy derp aura. Duo Qs with Gosu Pepper from M5, still have an extremely difficult game, Gosu pretty bad Anivia. The game was just as bad when he duo with Regi and they get double killed in their own jungle and then feed rest of the game but still somehow win. He went warmog instead of frozen mallet. He had no damage until almost 35 minutes into the game. They still won because the other team was even worse. Atmog isn't a viable jungle build unless you get super super fed, which his 7 assists didn't get him. 23 minute warmog way too late. Maybe if he didn't build 2 dorans first he could have finished it in a reasonable amount of time. He just purchased his warmogs with 3 dblades at 32 min this game. What do you think would have been a better purchase? Frozen mallet makes you almost unpeelable. Plus it gives you a little ad with 700 hp. It's the ideal bruiser item. Warmog is useless to a bruiser until you get atma's. Dblades are better on an ad who can better use the hp but doesn't build any items that actually have it as a stat. On bruisers dblades put you behind your good items. Atleast that's how it works for junglers. How is it, though? It's great on champs with innate resistances, but I'd almost always rather get something else on most bruisers. Phage is usually enough and in the vast majority of cases, I'd rather build that into a Triforce later on. I'm not a big fan of the whole Fratmas on Irelia either. Maybe if you go Phage->Wit's->Atma's->FMallet, but even then, I'd much rather keep the phage, build a Warmog's and Trinity later. Obviously warmog gives more effective hp on a champion that gets free armor and mr. That isn't what was being discussed. TOO was playing ad bruisers, not tanks. And he was jungling, not laning. This whole discussion started with you saying it's an optimal bruiser item. That's a whole different thing than saying 'in the situation OddOne was in, FM was the best choice because of XYZ.'' Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:35 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Frozen mallet makes you almost unpeelable. Plus it gives you a little ad with 700 hp. It's the ideal bruiser item. Warmog is useless to a bruiser until you get atma's. Dblades are better on an ad who can better use the hp but doesn't build any items that actually have it as a stat. On bruisers dblades put you behind your good items. Atleast that's how it works for junglers.
Point taken.
Who was he jungling by the way? Considering he bought DBlades before FM, I'm guessing Lee?
Why are people going FM on him? I don't get it.
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On February 14 2012 05:58 TheYango wrote:
The thing that bothers me about Mallet is that it's just sort of a midrangey item. If you're playing a carry role, then you should be getting enough farm to finish and charge Warmog's and have Atma's in reasonable time. If you're playing a supportive role, then you're better off buying supportive items like Aegis and Shurelya's.
It's sort of a cop-out item for players that don't properly assess their team role and want to force themselves into a carry position without having the farm to back it up.
still a good item on Monkey, Chinese Guy and Dragon Lady.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:11 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:58 TheYango wrote:
The thing that bothers me about Mallet is that it's just sort of a midrangey item. If you're playing a carry role, then you should be getting enough farm to finish and charge Warmog's and have Atma's in reasonable time. If you're playing a supportive role, then you're better off buying supportive items like Aegis and Shurelya's.
It's sort of a cop-out item for players that don't properly assess their team role and want to force themselves into a carry position without having the farm to back it up. still a good item on Monkey, Chinese Guy and Dragon Lady.
Shyvana I can see because she's sort of a midgame carry that COULD finish Warmog's/Atmas but probably doesn't want to, since waiting that long would put her past her prime.
Why Xin and Monkey?
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Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with.
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I think hp is reasonable on irelia purely in situations where you want to jump on rambo on them and you have lots of damage anyway and don't want to get focused. If there's a chance of dragging out the fight HP obviously isn't the best stat. I still would get mallet against singed/nidalee assholes like that who need to be perma slowed.
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I don't know, I usually focus on AS/tankiness/mobility on Irelia, so that I can dive one of their carries with W on, shred him, disengage once he's dead or I'm receiving too much flak, then dive back when W's ready again. So I don't care all that much for HP as much as I do for regens/ability to reduce what I eat.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:18 Niton wrote:
Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with.
If you need damage, buy damage. If you need survivability, buy survivability. If you need utility, buy utility.
At the end of the day, what's the point of a midrangey item if it's not cost-effective compared to the specialized options?
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On February 14 2012 06:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:18 Niton wrote:
Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with. If you need damage, buy damage. If you need survivability, buy survivability. If you need utility, buy utility. At the end of the day, what's the point of a midrangey item if it's not cost-effective compared to the specialized options?
Having 1 itemslot for both hp and damage is nice, you shouldn't buy mallet for the dmg tho(3k gold, 20 dmg lol), you buy it for the slow. You don't need the slow you're better off with warmogs.
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yeah i don't think niton is implying he's buying it for damage. It's not really intended to be a 'splitting the difference' item like manamune which basically is garbage for those reasons.
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On February 14 2012 06:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:18 Niton wrote:
Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with. If you need damage, buy damage. If you need survivability, buy survivability. If you need utility, buy utility. At the end of the day, what's the point of a midrangey item if it's not cost-effective compared to the specialized options?
A big, big part of the game is the midrange. If you can survive with worse items until your 8-10k build can be running on all cylinders, you're in great shape - but that's not something that's always viable, especially for junglers whose income is way more dynamic. If you have an item timing that makes you way stronger at time <x> than an opponent would be at the same point, you can come out way ahead.
The reason that certain 'midrangey' items (Haunting Guise excluded because it's just regular underpowered) are the strength they are is because they already confer massive advantages over people building toward bigger items if you attack at the right time. There's some very real reasons why you might want to do a Phage -> Atma's -> Frozen or a Frozen-first build instead of Warmog's -> Atma's, even though they're more "cost efficient", and they all rely on you picking apart a weakness in the enemy team's strategy.
Honestly, if anything should be done about item efficiency, the top-end items (and blue buff) should be made less efficient so that a lot of the items in the 1k-2k range have more of an opportunity to shine.
e:
On February 14 2012 06:41 UniversalSnip wrote:
yeah i don't think niton is implying he's buying it for damage. It's not really intended to be a 'splitting the difference' item like manamune which basically is garbage for those reasons.
Yeah, it's not about buying it for damage - you're buying it because you're a champion that wants the slow and the eventual Mallet+Atma's is significantly cheaper than Phage+Warmog's+Atma's. Taking advantage of that gold window where you have (for example) Phage+Atma's and your opponent has gold for Warmog's but hasn't bought it yet can shift the game well in favor of your team.
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On February 14 2012 06:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:11 Mogwai wrote:On February 14 2012 05:58 TheYango wrote:
The thing that bothers me about Mallet is that it's just sort of a midrangey item. If you're playing a carry role, then you should be getting enough farm to finish and charge Warmog's and have Atma's in reasonable time. If you're playing a supportive role, then you're better off buying supportive items like Aegis and Shurelya's.
It's sort of a cop-out item for players that don't properly assess their team role and want to force themselves into a carry position without having the farm to back it up. still a good item on Monkey, Chinese Guy and Dragon Lady. Shyvana I can see because she's sort of a midgame carry that COULD finish Warmog's/Atmas but probably doesn't want to, since waiting that long would put her past her prime. Why Xin and Monkey?
Basically Frozen Mallet is a bad item because its stats look like ass next to Trinity/Warmog's, but in essence, it does what those 2 items do for you in 1 item that costs almost 4K less. Now, what makes this a bad idea on most champions is that their first defensive priority actually isn't HP and that they're looking for builds that have options where you get phage and then go triforce rush when ahead and invest in resists when you're behind. By the time the dust has settled with those options, we're getting into big teamfights where you back with like 2K gold and suddenly going for Trinity/Warmog's isn't such a bad idea.
However, Shivan Dragon, Donkey Kong, and Lu Bu all have considerably large Armor/MRes steroids built into their kit, meaning that the most sensible investment post-Phage when you need defense is giant's belt. All of them essentially get a free mini-vest + mini-cloak already in teamfights, so HP is at a premium on all of them. Once you're sitting on a midgame phage + belt, you have to weigh your options, as to whether you can wait for ~4.6K more gold to become inescapable and have a massive HP pool, or if you just want to call it a day on the items you have and spend 825 on the guaranteed slow that will also make you inescapable (albeit doing considerably less damage and having considerably less HP). Going triforce after the giant's belt is almost 2K more than going for Mallet, and while it is a sounder late-game investment, sometimes you just need that chasing power now, not later. Mallet is purely an item of convenience, but on guys with built in resists, it's really damn convenient.
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On February 14 2012 06:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:18 Niton wrote:
Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with. If you need damage, buy damage. If you need survivability, buy survivability. If you need utility, buy utility. At the end of the day, what's the point of a midrangey item if it's not cost-effective compared to the specialized options?
if you need a slow and hp then buy mallet. btw the correct order is phage, belt, atmas, mallet. its really just the upgrade that is overpriced.
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