|
Heed these two simple warnings. It will help make our GD a better place. Consider this fair notice to all users. Warning will be dished out this patch. Thanks. Neo, 31.01.12 |
On February 14 2012 06:43 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:31 TheYango wrote:On February 14 2012 06:18 Niton wrote:
Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with. If you need damage, buy damage. If you need survivability, buy survivability. If you need utility, buy utility. At the end of the day, what's the point of a midrangey item if it's not cost-effective compared to the specialized options? if you need a slow and hp then buy mallet. btw the correct order is phage, belt, atmas, mallet. its really just the upgrade that is overpriced.
If I go phage belt atma's, I'm going trinity or warmog's next every single time, you've already missed the point where Mallet was a good item, because with that order, you would've gone phage belt trinity if you needed the chasing power right then, and since you obviously didn't because you went atma's, you might as well hold out for the bigger items.
|
Man Froggen's Ahri is just ridiculous
|
On February 14 2012 06:48 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:43 clickrush wrote:On February 14 2012 06:31 TheYango wrote:On February 14 2012 06:18 Niton wrote:
Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with. If you need damage, buy damage. If you need survivability, buy survivability. If you need utility, buy utility. At the end of the day, what's the point of a midrangey item if it's not cost-effective compared to the specialized options? if you need a slow and hp then buy mallet. btw the correct order is phage, belt, atmas, mallet. its really just the upgrade that is overpriced. If I go phage belt atma's, I'm going trinity or warmog's next every single time, you've already missed the point where Mallet was a good item, because with that order, you would've gone phage belt trinity if you needed the chasing power right then, and since you obviously didn't because you went atma's, you might as well hold out for the bigger items.
I think there are probably times where Phage Belt Atma's (?) Frozen is right, but they'd be really situational - something like an AP picking up a couple of kills necessitating MR in the period after Atma's, or being in a situation where having the first-hit slow really was that important. Mallet is kind of a bad item, but at the same time, I also think it's really strong because it means you can create a no-triforce build that includes a slow for champions on which Triforce isn't as efficient (Manaless champs, champs with long cooldowns).
|
On February 14 2012 07:03 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:48 Mogwai wrote:On February 14 2012 06:43 clickrush wrote:On February 14 2012 06:31 TheYango wrote:On February 14 2012 06:18 Niton wrote:
Wukong has his Armor/MR passive, and Xin has his Armor/MR ult. Going in on a big chunk of people makes them tanky to begin with. If you need damage, buy damage. If you need survivability, buy survivability. If you need utility, buy utility. At the end of the day, what's the point of a midrangey item if it's not cost-effective compared to the specialized options? if you need a slow and hp then buy mallet. btw the correct order is phage, belt, atmas, mallet. its really just the upgrade that is overpriced. If I go phage belt atma's, I'm going trinity or warmog's next every single time, you've already missed the point where Mallet was a good item, because with that order, you would've gone phage belt trinity if you needed the chasing power right then, and since you obviously didn't because you went atma's, you might as well hold out for the bigger items. I think there are probably times where Phage Belt Atma's (?) Frozen is right, but they'd be really situational - something like an AP picking up a couple of kills necessitating MR in the period after Atma's, or being in a situation where having the first-hit slow really was that important. Mallet is kind of a bad item, but at the same time, I also think it's really strong because it means you can create a no-triforce build that includes a slow for champions on which Triforce isn't as efficient (Manaless champs, champs with long cooldowns).
I actually can't think of a Manaless champion that doesn't get enough mileage out of the triforce procs to make it worthwhile, or a champion with long enough CDs to hurt Triforce's effectiveness.
For instance, I don't see the appeal of Mallet on Lee Sin to be perfectly honest. I think phage, belt, atma's, warmog's, triforce is just better on him. Late game triforce adds a lot to his damage output.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:43 clickrush wrote:
if you need a slow and hp then buy mallet. btw the correct order is phage, belt, atmas, mallet. its really just the upgrade that is overpriced.
The practical application of upgrading the Phage slow to Mallet is almost nonexistent. Item slows just don't stack, period, so if your team has a Rylai's or other Phages, the gain from going to Mallet is pretty minimal. A single Phage with 1.5 attack speed has a 70% chance of re-applying the slow before it falls off. If you have two Phages on your team, there's almost no point in either upgrading to Mallet.
That's not even factoring the diminishing returns if there are other slows.
|
Something else to think about with how much Mallet generally sucks is that Phage + Zeal costs about 700 less gold and makes you only slightly easier to get away from, but with higher damage output. Without Phage + Giant's Belt making sense to begin with, Mallet is just bad.
|
On February 14 2012 07:10 Mogwai wrote:
I actually can't think of a Manaless champion that doesn't get enough mileage out of the triforce procs to make it worthwhile, or a champion with long enough CDs to hurt Triforce's effectiveness.
For instance, I don't see the appeal of Mallet on Lee Sin to be perfectly honest. I think phage, belt, atma's, warmog's, triforce is just better on him. Late game triforce adds a lot to his damage output.
I was thinking someone like Renekton or Garen - I don't think either of them gains enough from Triforce's stats for it to be worth the cost, because of the additional lack of meaningful AP scaling on top of no mana.
On February 14 2012 07:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:43 clickrush wrote:
if you need a slow and hp then buy mallet. btw the correct order is phage, belt, atmas, mallet. its really just the upgrade that is overpriced. The practical application of upgrading the Phage slow to Mallet is almost nonexistent. Item slows just don't stack, period, so if your team has a Randuin or Rylai's, there's very little point in getting Mallet because both slows will just overlap Mallet. Even with multiple Phages, it becomes pretty questionable whether the difference is worthwhile. That's not even factoring the diminishing returns if there are other slows.
I don't actually think this is true? Phage is 30, Rylai's is 35 (15 AoE), Warden's/Randuin's is 35 (and 35 AS), Frozen is 40 (30 Ranged). I'd be willing to test it, but I would actually be pretty surprised if Randuins' 35% kept Frozen's 40% from proccing.
|
So what would the combine cost on FM need to be to make it NOT a shitty upgrade?
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 14 2012 07:19 Niton wrote:
I don't actually think this is true? Phage is 30, Rylai's is 35 (15 AoE), Warden's/Randuin's is 35 (and 35 AS), Frozen is 40 (30 Ranged). I'd be willing to test it, but I would actually be pretty surprised if Phage's 30% or Randuins' 35% kept Frozen's 40% from proccing.
They don't keep it from proccing, but only the strongest is applied when it comes to item slows. When you factor in diminishing returns in the context of other slow sources (abilities, red buff, etc.), the difference between Mallet's 40% slow and having one of the others is pretty minimal.
|
I rarely go triforce with shyvana jungle even late late late game when I'm full. I prefer mallet because it's better to tank, the slow is godlike, and it stacks really well with atmog. But maybe I'm wrong into doing that.
|
On February 14 2012 07:21 Two_DoWn wrote:
So what would the combine cost on FM need to be to make it NOT a shitty upgrade?
Keep the combined cost where it is, make the item give 25 AD and 800 HP. I mean, seriously, we're talking about 2 AD and 35 HP for 825 gold with the numbers it has now. You don't want to just give the 100% chance slow away, but you also need an item that costs as much as Bloodthirster to have respectable base stat efficiency.
|
On February 14 2012 07:22 WhiteDog wrote:
I rarely go triforce with shyvana jungle even late late late game when I'm full. I prefer mallet because it's better to tank, the slow is godlike, and it stacks really well with atmog. But maybe I'm wrong into doing that.
early game mallet also just makes a buttload of sense on shyv, as I've already said. But honestly, if your shyv build somehow ended up going towards the late game and you were sitting on atmog's + phage and wondering whether it's better to go triforce or mallet, it's better to go triforce.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 14 2012 07:21 Two_DoWn wrote:
So what would the combine cost on FM need to be to make it NOT a shitty upgrade?
The problem is that a large part of what you're paying for is the slow at all. About 700g of Mallet's cost is spent on the slow. Most of the cost-effective item choices are such that the utility component is effectively free, and the combine cost is largely paying for the actual stats (see Triforce, Deathcap, Wit's, Aegis, WotA, etc.). Mallet doesn't have to be THAT cost-effective to be useful, since the parts are convenient to buy, but it at least has to be comfortable in terms of the stat gains.
So, IMO, Mallet would be "good" if either the combine cost were lowered to ~200-300 gold (so that it's at least cost-effective for the stats), or if the stats gained were buffed so that they match the combine cost.
|
Hmm Froggen went too greedy at too many times before drake just spawned which keep on costing them drakes.
|
On February 14 2012 07:21 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:19 Niton wrote:
I don't actually think this is true? Phage is 30, Rylai's is 35 (15 AoE), Warden's/Randuin's is 35 (and 35 AS), Frozen is 40 (30 Ranged). I'd be willing to test it, but I would actually be pretty surprised if Phage's 30% or Randuins' 35% kept Frozen's 40% from proccing. They don't keep it from proccing, but only the strongest is applied when it comes to item slows. When you factor in diminishing returns in the context of other slow sources (abilities, red buff, etc.), the difference between Mallet's 40% slow and having one of the others is pretty minimal.
From LoL wiki: If a champion is affected by multiple slows, the strongest one will be fully applied, while the others are applied sequentially with 35% reduced effectiveness down to 65% of its original strength.
Active item slows (Gunblade, Cutlass, Randuin's) do stack with eachother, but passive item slows don't (Rylai's, Phage, Mallet, TF).
|
On February 14 2012 07:21 Two_DoWn wrote:
So what would the combine cost on FM need to be to make it NOT a shitty upgrade?
I think the combine cost would need to go down to 3k or so, but the AD would need to be pumped up to somewhere in the 30s , and Warmog's would also need to be nerfed. A sizable portion of the upgrade cost is (rightfully) tied up in the fact that it's the only guaranteed autoattack slow you can buy, and Warmog's really is still too efficient for what it does.
A 700 HP / 20 AD item will never be an efficient use of an item slot when its competition is a 1270 HP / 40 HP5 item for 270g less and fuckin KING OF EFFICIENCY, TRIFORCE for only 820g more.
|
On February 14 2012 07:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:21 Two_DoWn wrote:
So what would the combine cost on FM need to be to make it NOT a shitty upgrade? The problem is that a large part of what you're paying for is the slow at all. About 700g of Mallet's cost is spent on the slow. Most of the cost-effective item choices are such that the utility component is effectively free, and the combine cost is largely paying for the actual stats (see Triforce, Deathcap, Wit's, Aegis, etc.). Add to that the fact that the utility gain from the slow over having Phage is fairly minimal to begin with, and it's hard to float. So, IMO, Mallet would be "good" if either the combine cost were lowered to ~200-300 gold (so that it's at least cost-effective for the stats), or if the stats gained were buffed so that they match the combine cost.
I always thought it lacks damage, like 5-10 more damage. Such a high tier items with only 20 (considering phage is 18) is kinda ridiculous. And even the bonus HP is not that good considering a belt gives 430 hp and phage gives 225. It's a shitty item overall because for 825 you only get 45 HP, 2 dmg and the slow.
But for some heroes the triforce is such a huge investment for not a huge deal - a bruiser needs way more hp than the poor 250 HP on it.
On February 14 2012 07:26 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:22 WhiteDog wrote:
I rarely go triforce with shyvana jungle even late late late game when I'm full. I prefer mallet because it's better to tank, the slow is godlike, and it stacks really well with atmog. But maybe I'm wrong into doing that. early game mallet also just makes a buttload of sense on shyv, as I've already said. But honestly, if your shyv build somehow ended up going towards the late game and you were sitting on atmog's + phage and wondering whether it's better to go triforce or mallet, it's better to go triforce.
Yeah I go Mallet first, and go for atmog late. Do you think I should sell the Mallet to get a triforce late late game if I have the gold to do so ? Considering I already have tanky items.
XSpecial and Regi going at it again.
|
On a side note, I definitely thought Frozen Mallet cost like 2800. At 3250, it's way worse just because 2 AD is a joke.
Comedy option: Phage (1315) + Pickaxe (975) + Giant's Belt (1110) = 3750g, 700 HP / 50 AD.
|
United States47024 Posts
On the topic of Warmog's, I really feel like it shouldn't grant full stacks on assists. Stacking Warmog's should feel like a significant drawback for the item, but in practice, getting stacks on assists means that it only takes 2-3 fights plus some in-between farming time to actually stack it fully.
Maybe tweak the stats/stack gains on kills/minions to compensate, but it feels really weird that assists give stacks so easily compared to kills and lasthits.
|
On February 14 2012 07:30 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:21 Two_DoWn wrote:
So what would the combine cost on FM need to be to make it NOT a shitty upgrade? I think the combine cost would need to go down to 3k or so, but the AD would need to be pumped up to somewhere in the 30s , and Warmog's would also need to be nerfed. A sizable portion of the upgrade cost is (rightfully) tied up in the fact that it's the only guaranteed autoattack slow you can buy, and Warmog's really is still too efficient for what it does. A 700 HP / 20 AD item will never be an efficient use of an item slot when its competition is a 1270 HP / 40 HP5 item for 270g less and fuckin KING OF EFFICIENCY, TRIFORCE for only 820g more.
Very few people still build warmogs at high elo. warmog's doesn't need a nerf, it's good at what it does, but it's a very very narrow item and has dropped in popularity compared more balanced defensive items like aegis and randuin's.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
