EPT[Patch 1.0.0.133: Ziggs] General Discussion - Page 134
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The first is how that laner interacts with his lane opponent. Best example of aggressive: Regi. He constantly goes for harass and kills in 1v1 situations. Jiji and Salce, on the other hand, play a bit more passively- farm focused rather kill focused. The other factor is how that mid reacts around the map. The extreme example of active is Regi's sion- constantly moving from lane to lane and securing objectives. Salce also does a very good job of moving to assist his team. At the moment, Jiji's weakness IMO is that he tends to be very slow to react and help around the map. Of course, he can mask it by playing champs like TF, but on other champs he needs to work on being more active. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:03 zulu_nation8 wrote: ive never really noticed the difference between an "aggressive" mid and a "passive" one. I think "theoretically" there are only right and wrong decisions with no style factor attached. Not really, LOL is an incomplete information game, you never know whats going on 100% or what the 9 other players will do. a risky/aggressive player will take high danger/high reward plays a passive/safe player will wait until there is less risk You can theorycraft and argue over which decision is ultimately a better bet, but the player ingame has much more limited information/time and style definitely comes into play. I see this everytime I mid with Xerath/Viktor, I get into a situation where I think I can flash in and burst them, or just wait and land one more long range harass and be very confident I can kill. Maybe one is the right answer but there are too many variables to take into account to ever be sure in a given game. | ||
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Terranasaur
United States2085 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:12 Seuss wrote: Describing LoL's decision making as "right and wrong" is misleading. There are many different ways to measure the merit of any individual or team decision. While some decisions clearly work out or fail, most fall into the many shades of grey between black and white. Good, Better, Best. Is that what you are trying to say? | ||
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:12 Seuss wrote: Describing LoL's decision making as "right and wrong" is misleading. There are many different ways to measure the merit of any individual or team decision. While some decisions clearly work out or fail, most fall into the many shades of grey between black and white. Indeed. I hate when people try to wash out personal style with "they are either playing the champion right or wrong." I mean, look at the way Saint and TOO play skarner. Saint almost always rushes triforce and gets shit like wits end regularly. TOO grabs pure tank items. Neither is any more right than the other. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
There's also the issue of roaming but I don't think that's really related to how passive or aggressive you are in lane. edit: Because of Regi's aggressive harass centric style you'll often see him either get kills in lane or die in lane. Whereas Salce and jiji usually won't get as many kills but also don't feed as often. Caveat on slump jiji who still sometimes fucks up and dies anyway. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
TSM ran top lane Maokai? In their current scrim vs SK they're winning, behind on kills but up on all objectives inhibs and got Baron so I assume it was a comeback. Didn't see most of the game though so have no idea how Maokai worked in lane. I suppose it can work, but I've never seen anyone try it only heard about it AP Mao being tried a long time ago. TRM went tank Maokai, (not in buy order) hourglass, spirit, visage, warmogs, chalice, boots and something else. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Indeed. I hate when people try to wash out personal style with "they are either playing the champion right or wrong." I mean, look at the way Saint and TOO play skarner. Saint almost always rushes triforce and gets shit like wits end regularly. TOO grabs pure tank items. Neither is any more right than the other. given a specific situation, two different item builds can never be equal, just because the reasoning behind the build and its impact on the game are too complicated and/or implict to analyze does not mean the difference should be attributed to a matter of "style." | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:23 zulu_nation8 wrote: given a specific situation, two different item builds can never be equal, just because the reasoning behind the build and its impact on the game are too complicated and/or implict to analyze does not mean the difference should be attributed to a matter of "style." If that is not style, what is style? Edit: What works for one person may not work for another, because different people play differently and have different strengths, weaknesses, and preferences. Whether a perfect AI can play either person's build better is not relevant, the only thing that matters is what actually works for the people playing. Also, your interpretation of risk is wrong. You do not know whether you can get the kill. If you already know you can get the kill, there is no risk of failing. Hindsight is only relevant for learning, it doesn't mean you made the wrong decision based on what you knew. Think of Poker: Yeah, a 2-7 hand might have been the strongest at the table in hindsight, but that doesn't mean you should've played it. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:18 zulu_nation8 wrote: i think aggressive/passive laning is purely dependent on champ mu and jungler mu. Reacting around the map is decision making, theres only right and wrong (in hindsight). If you can secure a kill but dont go for it, then it was wrong not to take the risk, if you go for a kill but dont get it, it could be because you missed skillshots but also that it was wrong to leave lane and waste time. Everyone tries to press their advantage as much as possible. Again, this doesnt work, even for jungling. There are WAY to many factors to say that any given minute action you take is right or wrong. For example, if I chose not to gank mid because I feel there is only, say, a 15% chance of getting a kill, who is to say that that is a bad decision if instead I go through my jungle once and get an extra level and 200 gold? Or say I camp top for a full 3 minutes and GET a kill, but the trade off is that the enemy jungle took my buff. I'm behind, but my teammate is ahead. Was it the right decision? On February 10 2012 07:23 zulu_nation8 wrote: given a specific situation, two different item builds can never be equal, just because the reasoning behind the build and its impact on the game are too complicated and/or implict to analyze does not mean the difference should be attributed to a matter of "style." But it IS style. How you play off the build, how you position, how you ACT, the targets that you go for. That is all actions that are controllable by the player through the build that you chose. And given that TOO and SV are both competitive players who play the same champ very differently, but with the same level of success, how do you explain that difference besides their personal style? They are both right, but right in different ways. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
it is style, i should probably retract my first point and admit style does exist, but that i don't think it implies different styles can't be compared and can't be judged objectively on their reasoning and effect | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:18 zulu_nation8 wrote: i think aggressive/passive laning is purely dependent on champ mu and jungler mu. Reacting around the map is decision making, theres only right and wrong (in hindsight). If you can secure a kill but dont go for it, then it was wrong not to take the risk, if you go for a kill but dont get it, it could be because you missed skillshots but also that it was wrong to leave lane and waste time. Everyone tries to press their advantage as much as possible. Yeah, but you never know if you can secure a kill. Maokai might be sitting right there in the bush waiting to jump your ass. Maybe you can secure it but it will lead to a lost dragon fight with you unable to use a gamechanging ult. Maybe its just a risky kill where you need to land all Xeraths ults but they have a dash. Maybe their fed ass pantheon will then immediately counterkill you with ult. Do you chase for an almost guaranteed kill if they are pushing top and will get a turret if you dont tele in? Do you dive when you will only succeed if someone else catches on and follows you in? Its often impossible to figure out what optimal play is when it is so dependant on so many other people. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:26 Two_DoWn wrote: Again, this doesnt work, even for jungling. There are WAY to many factors to say that any given minute action you take is right or wrong. For example, if I chose not to gank mid because I feel there is only, say, a 15% chance of getting a kill, who is to say that that is a bad decision if instead I go through my jungle once and get an extra level and 200 gold? Or say I camp top for a full 3 minutes and GET a kill, but the trade off is that the enemy jungle took my buff. I'm behind, but my teammate is ahead. Was it the right decision? in hindsight, first decision was the right one and second was wrong, i agree that different types of players will make different choices regarding those two situations but they can always be judged objectively based on their results | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:28 zulu_nation8 wrote: it is style, i should probably retract my first point and admit style does exist, but that i don't think it implies different styles can't be compared and can't be judged objectively on their reasoning and effect The styles can be compared, but your comparison has no practical relevance if its value relies entirely on the assumption that different people can vary their styles at will and execute different playstyles with equal proficiency. It's clear that buying two boots is not better for anyone, but picking a tankier vs a more glass cannon build may work better for some players, but not for others, due to personal traits such as reaction time, skill at judging situations, aversity to risk, etc. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Indeed. I hate when people try to wash out personal style with "they are either playing the champion right or wrong." I mean, look at the way Saint and TOO play skarner. Saint almost always rushes triforce and gets shit like wits end regularly. TOO grabs pure tank items. Neither is any more right than the other. In the most general sense, neither is more right than the other, but the advantages of each shine in certain situations and team-compositions, over which they do not have complete overlap. While it is unavoidable that a player will feel more naturally comfortable with one style more than another, it is at the same time the responsibility of a player to acknowledge the advantages and disadvantages of his particular style. In a competitive setting, this means either employing whichever style is suited to the game you are playing, or, if you are not comfortable playing the champion in both ways, it means picking in such a way that you don't force yourself into a situation where you can't play the style suited to the team compositions in question. It's not wrong to play Skarner one way or the other. It IS wrong to knowingly pick Skarner into a situation where one style is inappropriate and then not adapt. The two styles may be equally good OVERALL, but they are not equally good in every situation, and different team-comps magnify and cover up the strengths/weaknesses of each style differently. | ||
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