EPT[Patch 1.0.0.133: Ziggs] General Discussion - Page 116
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 09 2012 05:55 Two_DoWn wrote: Basically. The thing with udyr and shyv is that both of them have obscene defensive steroids. So you dont need as much gold as other champions to hit that level of tankiness. Typically if you can get a fast pair of mercs and a HOG you should be fine. Then its just a matter of keeping your farm up. Junglers can't outfarm lanes by jungling unless the lanes are missing 30% of their potential last-hits. Ultimately you're not going to match your potential lane farm unless you're covering lanes a lot. | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
In order for a jungler to get even or ahead with a laner who is farming appropriately, they need to be getting kills. | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:12 UniversalSnip wrote: I think this 'can't carry with X, requires too much team' thing is mostly bullshit. I'm pretty sure if you are deserving of more than your current elo you will win with udyr lol... I think it's a long-run thing. In the long run you will gain elo by being good with anything (including say support soraka) since you will increase your odds of winning. But if you want to rise in elo quickly then someone who can really carry games will let you do that. The problem is that the vast majority of players believe that they are two or three or four hundred elo below where they should be, so they take the latter attitude. But since most people are actually at the elo they belong at then its the wrong attitude to have. edit: though if you are 400 elo below what you should be at then playing riven will get you there faster than playing soraka. I don't think that's really contestible. | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:08 zulu_nation8 wrote: what about the one where you were like omg omg omg we cant win its 4v5 just surrender plz Are you serious? You try to invite me to a normal multiple times per day, despite the fact that I have denied every single one for more than a month and already nicely told you that I don't want to play with you. I play premades with other people nearly every day because they actually have both personalities worth keeping around and the ability to hold their own in a game, rather than someone who goes full retard to throw games every single time and then pretends they were just "trolling." Sorry if I don't want to waste half an hour on a losing effort because someone d/ced. Accept the loss and move on to the next game, rather than being the guy who wants to hide a command center in the corner of the map and AFK for 24 hours. Moreover, I don't use LiquidParty. This conversation is now shitting up the general discussion thread, so please direct any further replies to a PM. On February 09 2012 06:12 UniversalSnip wrote: I think this 'can't carry with X, requires too much team' thing is mostly bullshit. I'm pretty sure if you are deserving of more than your current elo you will win with udyr lol... Eventually, but there are some games you can't carry and it's often the case that an Udyr jungler can't stop all lanes from losing. On February 09 2012 05:15 JackDino wrote: Does anyone jungle cho? He clears like, pretty damn fast with that E and has good ganks, good sustain with passive. I've done it a few times, but it feels like Singed in that you don't normally get strong enough out of the jungle to do what you need. His ganks are actually pretty weak since it's completely reliant on landing a Q. Unless you have a laner who can hard CC long enough for you to get and rang and have your Q to go off, you probably won't ever kill anything. It's often the case that the only way you can get in range fast enough to have Q go off before they can walk/jump/flash out of range is to either flash yourself or have the laner flash (only works in certain positions). | ||
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Xevious
United States2086 Posts
top comment - "Ready to set the world on fire?" genius | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On February 09 2012 05:49 L wrote: That doesn't happen if your team is behind, sorry. The standard swing for a successful gank is around +600 gold for your team (-270 or so in missed farm for them, +300 for the kill for you). That's the equivalent of a full jungle clear. Shyv's aggressive counterjungling pays off because it crushes their jungle's ability to get the same kills while giving her significant xp and gold leads, but its not because she's going to out tank an AD carry, let alone an entire team, that's doing well. Shyv top and Shyv jungle do not scale at the same rate, nor do they have the same xp level. Depends how behind. I've carried teams where all lanes lost pretty hard just by f arming their lanes and tanking everything later on. | ||
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
maybe it's just because skarner is OP, but i specifically learned a new champ because of how frequently i would lose games even after starting like 3-0 or 4-0 with udyr | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:38 chalice wrote: at low level play i gained 200-300 elo pretty much as a direct result of switching from maining udyr to skarner maybe it's just because skarner is OP, but i specifically learned a new champ because of how frequently i would lose games even after starting like 3-0 or 4-0 with udyr Skarner's definitely a lot stronger in solo queue. He's permaban status in my games (and wins 90%+ of the time when not banned). | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
Wickd 2v4 : «Go in Snoopeh ! go ! We kill ! Don't stop» Runs away Wickd : «Go in Snoopeh ! You got them ! Oh you're dead :D» | ||
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:25 Craton wrote: Eventually, but there are some games you can't carry and it's often the case that an Udyr jungler can't stop all lanes from losing. To be fair, if all three of your lanes are losing straight up there's nothing you're ever going to be able to do as a jungler, regardless of what hero you're playing. On February 09 2012 06:38 Craton wrote: Skarner's definitely a lot stronger in solo queue. He's permaban status in my games (and wins 90%+ of the time when not banned). Agreed on Skarner being really strong. That said, I swear to god every time I pick him I end up in one of the aforementioned games where all three lanes are losing by themselves. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
Also: http://www.nerfplz.com/2012/01/tsm-cooking-tier-list.html | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:16 Seuss wrote: Junglers can't outfarm lanes by jungling unless the lanes are missing 30% of their potential last-hits. Ultimately you're not going to match your potential lane farm unless you're covering lanes a lot. Its not a matter of being ahead in terms of farm, its being ahead in terms of your ability to survive what they put out in terms of damage, which is very doable. It means being able to survive the burst of the ap mid, or chase down the ad carry before they kill you. | ||
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:43 arnath wrote: To be fair, if all three of your lanes are losing straight up there's nothing you're ever going to be able to do as a jungler, regardless of what hero you're playing. No, that's not true. Strong gankers can turn lanes around from losing to winning and if you can at least get some lanes back to almost even you have a chance to drag out the game and turn it around. I've had many games where all the lanes started around losing, but some well timed ganks and objectives were able to turn things around or bring it back to even. If you're a weak ganker like Udyr, you aren't going to be able to pressure the lanes enough (or ideally get kills) that you can turn things around when they're already behind. In cases where they're incredibly pushed with no wards you might be able to, but that's going to be infrequent. Being able to secure dragons or steal buffs will help your team overall, but it's something that will offset being behind a little (considering dragon's only ~2/3 the value of one kill per person), but it won't turn a losing lane from losing to winning on its own -- you need ganks for that. Even the AFK farm junglers won't get strong enough to finish lane phase and turn the game around if all the lanes are behind (remember that the jungle is less gold/exp than the lanes and a lane that's ahead is going to be free farming and/or have wrapped up kills). You need at least one to be ahead or even coming out of lane phase. Note that being slightly behind (e.g. 1-0-0 150 cs to 0-1-0 140cs) is still considered pretty much even. Losing is when you're behind like 50 cs, down several kills, etc. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:43 arnath wrote: To be fair, if all three of your lanes are losing straight up there's nothing you're ever going to be able to do as a jungler, regardless of what hero you're playing. It depends on how badly the three lanes are losing though. One death and a slight CS disadvantage means that you lost your lane but the game isn't unwinnable. Now if all three lanes are feeding, yeah, you're probably fucked. But I've had several games where every lane loses yet we still manage to come back and win because we either have a team that can defend well or the opposing team lacks pushing power or poke. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
I can say if all 3 lanes lose the game is neigh impossible. On February 09 2012 07:00 Craton wrote: No, that's not true. Strong gankers can turn lanes around from losing to winning and if you can at least get some lanes back to almost even you have a chance to drag out the game and turn it around. I've had many games where all the lanes started around losing, but some well timed ganks and objectives were able to turn things around or bring it back to even. If you're a weak ganker like Udyr, you aren't going to be able to pressure the lanes enough (or ideally get kills) that you can turn things around when they're already behind. In cases where they're incredibly pushed with no wards you might be able to, but that's going to be infrequent. Being able to secure dragons or steal buffs will help your team overall, but it's something that will offset being behind a little (considering dragon's only ~2/3 the value of one kill per person), but it won't turn a losing lane from losing to winning on its own -- you need ganks for that. Even the AFK farm junglers won't get strong enough to finish lane phase and turn the game around if all the lanes are behind (remember that the jungle is less gold/exp than the lanes and a lane that's ahead is going to be free farming and/or have wrapped up kills). You need at least one to be ahead or even coming out of lane phase. Note that being slightly behind (e.g. 1-0-0 150 cs to 0-1-0 140cs) is still considered pretty much even. Losing is when you're behind like 50 cs, down several kills, etc. Better send an email to riot, because they bugged out how much dragon gives you on a kill. 2/3rds of a kill, I don't even know if you've passed 5th grade math. One jungler can't win 3 lanes unless the other jungler is afk. Any advantage you give a lane will quickly be shit on by a jungler who actually plans on winning the game. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On February 09 2012 07:01 overt wrote: It depends on how badly the three lanes are losing though. One death and a slight CS disadvantage means that you lost your lane but the game isn't unwinnable. Now if all three lanes are feeding, yeah, you're probably fucked. But I've had several games where every lane loses yet we still manage to come back and win because we either have a team that can defend well or the opposing team lacks pushing power or poke. I think that lane is closer to 'even' than outright won by one or the other side. Skarner can reliably 'fix' top and mid. He cannot reliably fix bot. Farmed AD carries crush skarner in team fights if he has to be the team's primary source of damage. (Which is what happens when 2 of your lanes fail). Losing bot horrendously is the most terrifying thing to witness as skarner. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On February 09 2012 07:04 SnK-Arcbound wrote: I would really like to comment about jungling, but then I'd have to tell things I know that apparently almost no jungle ever mentions or appears to know. It's like the golden rule of jungling, yet people don't follow it. I can say if all 3 lanes lose the game is neigh impossible. Better send an email to riot, because they bugged out how much dragon gives you on a kill. 2/3rds of a kill, I don't even know if you've passed 5th grade math. One jungler can't win 3 lanes unless the other jungler is afk. Any advantage you give a lane will quickly be shit on by a jungler who actually plans on winning the game. can't tell if trolling..... | ||
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