EPThttp://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/orrlr/saintvicious_opinion_of_moscow_5_vs_tsm/c3jkdyp
they got outpicked and now he acts like they weren't forced into the picks
[Patch 1.0.0.132: Sejuani] General Discussion - Page 82
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locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/orrlr/saintvicious_opinion_of_moscow_5_vs_tsm/c3jkdyp they got outpicked and now he acts like they weren't forced into the picks | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On January 23 2012 16:07 Two_DoWn wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 15:41 BlackMagister wrote: Xpecial gives his rebuttal of SV's criticism. http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/orrlr/saintvicious_opinion_of_moscow_5_vs_tsm/c3jnk0p Ionno. He basically doesnt say anything to actually rebut what SV said about picks and whatnot. SPOILERS TO FOLLOW: CRATON DONT LOOK SERIOUSLY CRATON! DONT LOOK! The biggest issue IMO is just TSM HAD the blueprint to shut down m5, then said "fuck it, we wanna beat them at their own game." Like, you look back at the 2010 dreamhack with the original CLG, and ryek or whatever his name was used TF to basically dominate every team in the tournament. Then his team hit CLG, they played 1 game and TF ran shit. So CLG banned TF and forced the euros to beat them at CLG's game. They couldnt even come close to matching CLG without, what at the time, was a gimmick. Then everyone KNEW about global ults, map control, and split pushing. It took about a month of solo q for the NA scene to break down the strat and beat it. But the point is they didnt try to do it AT THE TIME. They just did what they knew they were best at and won the tournament, then worried about the new strat afterwards. TSM did the opposite. They were determined to beat M5 at their own game. They saw what happened in game 1, and even then they didnt bother trying to break m5 strategy, they let them do it again. Now, they were still able to win because they got a few early kills and used that to flow into their normal strategy: using their superior laning abilities to dictate the flow of the game. Thats what TSM does. TRM stalls top while regi wins mid with the help of TOO and Xpecial and chaox win bot. Then THEY chose when to force objectives like buffs and dragons. Now, game 2 was slightly flukey (you cant count on free kills to start the game) but what it DID show was that m5 COULD NOT COMPETE with TSM when they dictated the flow. And they also should have learned that just playing someone that could force top lane to stay put completely shut down the jungle invade. But then we get to game 3. And this is where TSM proved UNEQUIVOCALLY that they cannot possibly ever become the top LoL team unless they look in the mirror. First problem: they refused to ban Shyvana. They could have shut down the most effective m5 strat right there. But they wanted to beat m5 on m5's terms. It wasnt about winning the tournament. It was about something else, pride probably. Best evidence? Look at TOO's twitter between games. "To everyone who says we need to ban Shyvana, take a look at this!" TSM didnt want to win. They wanted to humiliate M5. and thats the difference between TSM and CLG. CLG would have just slapped a ban on any champion that could have possibly allowed M5 to run that strat, or put together a team that completely forced M5 to play safer, even if it meant M5 got stronger standard comp champions than CLG: they knew that, on their terms, M5 wouldnt have stood a chance. Then they would have gone back to NA and figured out how to counter that gimmick regularly (cuz, after all, M5's invade is a gimmick at this point.) TSM didnt. For some reason, winning wasnt good enough. They had to prove THEIR way was right. Its why they didnt ban Shyv. Its why they let/asked TRM to play Irelia again. And its why they lost. + Show Spoiler + I've been trying to figure out how to say this, very well pit. Agree entirely. TSM was waaay too stubborn. Main reason they lost. And that applies to the whole team, not to any one player. edit: oh right spoilersssss | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
Well you kinda have to ban rammus, or the other team does. GP ban makes sense. Ryze goes along with the whole "see champion kill champion" thing M5 had going for them. I don't think it was a matter of pride, I think TSM really didn't think Shyvana was that big of a deal. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 23 2012 15:21 infinitestory wrote: Huh? The Defense tree has much needed CDR/lv, movement speed, and of course the 21st point CC reduction. + Show Spoiler + The cdr/lvl isn't worth it to go that far down in the tree lol, 9/21 pretty nice on supports apart from the new support tree being shitty compared to the old one. I run 17/1/12 on sona tho, so much dmg. + Show Spoiler + Am I doing this right? | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On January 23 2012 17:44 JackDino wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 15:21 infinitestory wrote: Huh? The Defense tree has much needed CDR/lv, movement speed, and of course the 21st point CC reduction. + Show Spoiler + The cdr/lvl isn't worth it to go that far down in the tree lol, 9/21 pretty nice on supports apart from the new support tree being shitty compared to the old one. I run 17/1/12 on sona tho, so much dmg. + Show Spoiler + Am I doing this right? + Show Spoiler + Wouldn't going down in the defence tree be worth it on tanky supports like Alistar/Taric/Leona who want to get into the middle of fights? + Show Spoiler + Also, + Show Spoiler + No. | ||
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Craton
United States17297 Posts
On January 23 2012 17:25 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well you kinda have to ban rammus, or the other team does. GP ban makes sense. Ryze goes along with the whole "see champion kill champion" thing M5 had going for them. I don't think it was a matter of pride, I think TSM really didn't think Shyvana was that big of a deal. If not pride, then hubris. It's a pretty thin line. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Shyvana's ban is not what was needed, what was needed was better pick coming from TSM that's all... They need to defend their jungle, know the timing of their buf and be ready to contest the contesters... They let shyvana roam, but you can roam with other heroes. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 17:47 Treadmill wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 17:44 JackDino wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 15:21 infinitestory wrote: Huh? The Defense tree has much needed CDR/lv, movement speed, and of course the 21st point CC reduction. + Show Spoiler + The cdr/lvl isn't worth it to go that far down in the tree lol, 9/21 pretty nice on supports apart from the new support tree being shitty compared to the old one. I run 17/1/12 on sona tho, so much dmg. + Show Spoiler + Am I doing this right? + Show Spoiler + Wouldn't going down in the defence tree be worth it on tanky supports like Alistar/Taric/Leona who want to get into the middle of fights? + Show Spoiler + Also, + Show Spoiler + No. + Show Spoiler + It could be worth it on tanky supports+ Show Spoiler + but wouldn't run it on others.+ Show Spoiler + You get like almost no cdr though, + Show Spoiler + so going defense for just the cdr isn't worth it. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Craton
United States17297 Posts
On January 23 2012 17:59 WhiteDog wrote: + Show Spoiler + Shyvana's ban is not what was needed, what was needed was better pick coming from TSM that's all... They need to defend their jungle, know the timing of their buf and be ready to contest the contesters... They let shyvana roam, but you can roam with other heroes. It's stupid to try and figure out a counter-strat on the fly. You're better off banning it out and forcing the other team into more standard play. Additionally, they couldn't defend because their picks didn't allow it, which goes back to my first point. | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 18:00 JackDino wrote: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 17:47 Treadmill wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 17:44 JackDino wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 15:21 infinitestory wrote: Huh? The Defense tree has much needed CDR/lv, movement speed, and of course the 21st point CC reduction. + Show Spoiler + The cdr/lvl isn't worth it to go that far down in the tree lol, 9/21 pretty nice on supports apart from the new support tree being shitty compared to the old one. I run 17/1/12 on sona tho, so much dmg. + Show Spoiler + Am I doing this right? + Show Spoiler + Wouldn't going down in the defence tree be worth it on tanky supports like Alistar/Taric/Leona who want to get into the middle of fights? + Show Spoiler + Also, + Show Spoiler + No. + Show Spoiler + It could be worth it on tanky supports+ Show Spoiler + but wouldn't run it on others.+ Show Spoiler + You get like almost no cdr though, + Show Spoiler + so going defense for just the cdr isn't worth it. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Oh, I agree with that. But the small amount of cdr AND 10% tenacity and 3% movement speed and... etcetera probably IS worth it. + Show Spoiler + I seem to remember that Xpecial runs something like 0/23/7 on alot of supports, only getting utility tree for mana (buff duration on support IS kinda useless) and then just trying to survive. Although, considering at IEM Kiev + Show Spoiler + maybe his opinion isn't worth so much  + Show Spoiler + Edit: sorry that was kinda unnecessary. I'm done, anyways. | ||
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LoCicero
1100 Posts
On January 23 2012 18:13 Treadmill wrote: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 18:00 JackDino wrote: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 17:47 Treadmill wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 17:44 JackDino wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2012 15:21 infinitestory wrote: Huh? The Defense tree has much needed CDR/lv, movement speed, and of course the 21st point CC reduction. + Show Spoiler + The cdr/lvl isn't worth it to go that far down in the tree lol, 9/21 pretty nice on supports apart from the new support tree being shitty compared to the old one. I run 17/1/12 on sona tho, so much dmg. + Show Spoiler + Am I doing this right? + Show Spoiler + Wouldn't going down in the defence tree be worth it on tanky supports like Alistar/Taric/Leona who want to get into the middle of fights? + Show Spoiler + Also, + Show Spoiler + No. + Show Spoiler + It could be worth it on tanky supports+ Show Spoiler + but wouldn't run it on others.+ Show Spoiler + You get like almost no cdr though, + Show Spoiler + so going defense for just the cdr isn't worth it. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Oh, I agree with that. But the small amount of cdr AND 10% tenacity and 3% movement speed and... etcetera probably IS worth it. + Show Spoiler + I seem to remember that Xpecial runs something like 0/23/7 on alot of supports, only getting utility tree for mana (buff duration on support IS kinda useless) and then just trying to survive. Although, considering at IEM Kiev + Show Spoiler + maybe his opinion isn't worth so much + Show Spoiler + Edit: sorry that was kinda unnecessary. I'm done, anyways. I nominate this for #1 post 2012. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On January 23 2012 16:07 Two_DoWn wrote: Ionno. He basically doesnt say anything to actually rebut what SV said about picks and whatnot. SPOILERS TO FOLLOW: CRATON DONT LOOK SERIOUSLY CRATON! DONT LOOK! The biggest issue IMO is just TSM HAD the blueprint to shut down m5, then said "fuck it, we wanna beat them at their own game." Like, you look back at the 2010 dreamhack with the original CLG, and ryek or whatever his name was used TF to basically dominate every team in the tournament. Then his team hit CLG, they played 1 game and TF ran shit. So CLG banned TF and forced the euros to beat them at CLG's game. They couldnt even come close to matching CLG without, what at the time, was a gimmick. Then everyone KNEW about global ults, map control, and split pushing. It took about a month of solo q for the NA scene to break down the strat and beat it. But the point is they didnt try to do it AT THE TIME. They just did what they knew they were best at and won the tournament, then worried about the new strat afterwards. TSM did the opposite. They were determined to beat M5 at their own game. They saw what happened in game 1, and even then they didnt bother trying to break m5 strategy, they let them do it again. Now, they were still able to win because they got a few early kills and used that to flow into their normal strategy: using their superior laning abilities to dictate the flow of the game. Thats what TSM does. TRM stalls top while regi wins mid with the help of TOO and Xpecial and chaox win bot. Then THEY chose when to force objectives like buffs and dragons. Now, game 2 was slightly flukey (you cant count on free kills to start the game) but what it DID show was that m5 COULD NOT COMPETE with TSM when they dictated the flow. And they also should have learned that just playing someone that could force top lane to stay put completely shut down the jungle invade. But then we get to game 3. And this is where TSM proved UNEQUIVOCALLY that they cannot possibly ever become the top LoL team unless they look in the mirror. First problem: they refused to ban Shyvana. They could have shut down the most effective m5 strat right there. But they wanted to beat m5 on m5's terms. It wasnt about winning the tournament. It was about something else, pride probably. Best evidence? Look at TOO's twitter between games. "To everyone who says we need to ban Shyvana, take a look at this!" TSM didnt want to win. They wanted to humiliate M5. and thats the difference between TSM and CLG. CLG would have just slapped a ban on any champion that could have possibly allowed M5 to run that strat, or put together a team that completely forced M5 to play safer, even if it meant M5 got stronger standard comp champions than CLG: they knew that, on their terms, M5 wouldnt have stood a chance. Then they would have gone back to NA and figured out how to counter that gimmick regularly (cuz, after all, M5's invade is a gimmick at this point.) TSM didnt. For some reason, winning wasnt good enough. They had to prove THEIR way was right. Its why they didnt ban Shyv. Its why they let/asked TRM to play Irelia again. And its why they lost. Counter-jungling still isn't a big deal in new jungle unless they're stealing buffs or constantly stealing your small camps. If you lost hard at top lane or if your jungler isn't keeping his buffs timed then you deserve to be counter-jungled. I don't see how anyone could say that saint is wrong about at least that part of it. Good play makes counter-jungling a lot less effective and bad play enables massive amounts of jungle stealing. Would CLG have done better? Maybe, maybe not. I personally think that Hotshot is better than TRM. I also think that saint is better than TOO. So yeah, I could see how saint would consider CLG's odds to be much better against M5 considering top losing hard and TOO's jungle style is very susceptible, IMO, to being counter-jungled. Saint has mentioned that TOO gets counter-jungled easily numerous times in the past when TOO can't play Nunu. I believe saint's words were something along the lines of "Oddone doesn't punish people who come into his jungle like Jatt or I do." Furthermore, Xpecial is kind of a dick. I still remember him stirring up shit with CLG during Gamescon qualifiers. He just comes across as kind of an ass. Although, he may be right and saint was only saying that to make CLG looks cooler and make TSM look bad considering the rivalry they have but I happen to think that most of what saint said was pretty spot on. Good play makes counter-jungling a lot harder. Oh and I haven't watched enough of CLG EU to say if they're better than M5 or not. I just know that wickd is pretty solid, Snoopeh's good, and I like Froggen. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On January 23 2012 14:58 koreasilver wrote: armor, armor, mr/lvl, and gold is my standard support page. On Soraka I go 8/1/21 with heal/cv. 0/9/21 on Alistar with x/flash. Not too sure with Sona yet. edit: I still think wealth sucks on supports. I'd rather take the experience masteries since the strength of a support's spells comes almost entirely from base values. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-2-3-0-4-0-0-0-4-0-0-3-1 http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-2-3-0-4-0-0-0-4-0-0-3-1 I thought the gold seals were gonna be terrible because they're so much less efficient than the gold quints/armor seals but then I started thinking of it in terms of how quickly I was going to get my first gp5 item and noticed the seals give you your first gp5 40 seconds earlier. at that point it occured to me even kinda bad values of gp5 are pretty much core because you snowball off of getting your gp5 as early as possible while still maintaining wards and lane presence. So I take those masteries and I run gold seals. craton actually told me they were good and it took me too long (at least a week) to realize he was right | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On January 23 2012 18:21 JackDino wrote: Regi himself said before the finals that the reason M5 is able to counterjungle is because all their lanes are strong, also shyv is really fucking tanky and does tons of dmg while running around. So in that case, saint is still right. If TSM's lanes are weaker than M5's then it allows them to counter-jungle. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 23 2012 18:25 overt wrote: So in that case, saint is still right. If TSM's lanes are weaker than M5's then it allows them to counter-jungle. Regi was mainly referring to the jungler, not top lane running off into the enemy jungle but the logic still applies. I think there's nothing wrong with the criticism saint gave, he wasn't bashing tsm or anything just sharing his thoughts, and he was spot on. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Regarding supports, I run 9-0-21 with my AP runepage (mpen, mp5/lv, ap/lv, ap) just because I started with Sona on who (? Is that correct english?) some early AP seem good, I only had 2 runepages at the time, and I didn't bother changing when I bought Janna. | ||
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FR4CT4L
Australia697 Posts
How did you end up forcing CLG into blitzstar anyway loco? | ||
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Haasts
New Zealand4445 Posts
a) Resourceless champ who has an AOE that also offers a MS boost - Darien was able to shove the lane to the enemy tower without going OOM and then move swiftly into the enemy jungle. b) Ult offers both free tankiness and a long-range blink/dash - he was able to escape into the river a few times due to this. c) An autoattack reset (which scales with AS!) - once he had Wriggles, he was able to both sustain, shove, and absolutely murder buff camps. Udyr/Skarner/etc can do some of these things, but are still mana dependent, lack a blink, don't hit quite as hard on a single target (and neither really builds Wriggles* these days). * Actually, I can't remember what Lanedyr builds - Wriggles is probably core, actually? | ||
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