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On January 30 2012 05:20 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:48 Shiv. wrote:On January 30 2012 04:46 Mondeezy wrote:
Not to derail the argument here, but is Lux any good? I played her last game and had a blast, but some kid in my game(although he was a feeding moron) was telling me she is never used in comp. play. Is that true? True, but when it works for you and you have a blast while playing her, why would you care. Actually I'm gonna play in a tournament in about 5 minutes (just a fun little tournament in my uni), and my favorite APs are Lux, LB and Ahri. Yesterday they target banned LB and Ahri is a very popular ban, and I'm likely to play the ap mid role. Is Lux viable at all with a cooperative team or should I just gun for one of the more popluar APs?
If she's your favourite unbanned AP, go for her.
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9871 Posts
Not being a sheep isn't automatically good or bad.
That's pretty well put. I'm certain most of the things I think about this game that are correct are things I copied from someone else.
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Well they got Kassadin, guess I'm going Ahri again  . Someone's streaming it if you guys are interested in awful players duking it out for a 40 dollar meal card. http://www.own3d.tv/live/184627. Wish me luck!
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On January 30 2012 05:49 Nos- wrote:Well they got Kassadin, guess I'm going Ahri again . Someone's streaming it if you guys are interested in awful players duking it out for a 40 dollar meal card. http://www.own3d.tv/live/184627. Wish me luck!
WELL AT LEAST YOU'RE HANDSOME.
Also, how regularly do you participate in those tournaments?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2012 04:51 overt wrote:
Yeah, I understand that, they certainly aren't as professional as doctors but these are people who make their money playing LoL. It's cool if you think that you have a better idea or think that an item build that is common is inferior. But people should realize that if an item build is truly superior to what is the current norm pro players are going to pick it up because it benefits them more than anyone else.
The thing is, this isn't in any way supported by past experience. There have been multiple times where pros have picked up and supported build decisions that were strictly and verifiably worse than other options, and this was well discussed on TL.net. Remember when with the old masteries, almost every "pro" took Perseverance over Good Hands? Or when AD carry players all started using AD marks when it was provable that in all reasonable scenarios Armor Pen marks were better for AD carries?
There's also the fact that new trends take forever to catch on at high levels. Sure pro players will eventually pick up a "superior" way to play, but the turnover time on finding these things is extraordinarily slow in the LoL community. We've seen this in the past--it can take upwards of 3-4 months for players to realize that a new champion initially perceived as underpowered is actually extremely good.
IMO it's better to question everything than to be a "sheep". For the reason that as far as testing things goes, it's better to see a ton of false positives than false negatives. I'd rather try a bunch of shit builds and eventually stumble upon something good, rather than throwing out unconventional ideas and potentially missing something good along the way. The danger, sheep or not, is only becoming overly attached to one way of doing things. Question everything, try everything, stick to nothing unless you can, with an objective eye, say its right.
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On January 30 2012 05:18 tobi9999 wrote:
EDIT: @Starfries, Chaox actually goes Triforce first over IE
It's good to be a sheep. Bad to not be a sheep.
Honestly, in Brood War all I did was copy builds from progamers. My friends who played just as much as I did, like to make up their builds. I was consistently able to get C rank from 2008-2009, while my friends were stuck at D+.
Even Dyrus says that every champion he plays outside of singed and jax is just copying what other people do. For example, he essentially copied Udyr from Rain Man, and a lot of other builds from random high ELO people in solo queue. He is easily able to get to top 50
On the other hand, Rain Man, who thinks everyone else is retarded for what they build, just makes up his own builds. Like triple dorans into PD , LW on solotop corki. He has a lot of trouble climbing solo queue ladder past top 200. Why? because he keeps on trying new stuff instead of copying what works, and loses a lot of games trying out this stuff.
Other solotop laners such as Wickd also just copy builds from other people, so I don't understand what's wrong being a sheep.
But Dyrus copies other people, understands their builds' weaknesses and strengths, and then changes stuff. While some people who "aren't sheep" don't bother to understand why people go IE first on ad carries before trying other stuff, and some people copy other people and then never experiment with different stuff.
Copying people is perfectly fine if you're willing to change stuff after you understand how they play the hero and the weaknesses and strengths of their playstyle.
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Well, hard to be a sheep and be on TL, where the most played char must be Pantheon, widely seen as a weak top :>
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Baa?21244 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:05 mr_tolkien wrote:
Well, hard to be a sheep and be on TL
Excuse me?
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9871 Posts
On January 30 2012 05:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:51 overt wrote:
Yeah, I understand that, they certainly aren't as professional as doctors but these are people who make their money playing LoL. It's cool if you think that you have a better idea or think that an item build that is common is inferior. But people should realize that if an item build is truly superior to what is the current norm pro players are going to pick it up because it benefits them more than anyone else. IMO it's better to question everything than to be a "sheep". For the reason that as far as testing things goes, it's better to see a ton of false positives than false negatives. I'd rather try a bunch of shit builds and eventually stumble upon something good, rather than throwing out unconventional ideas and potentially missing something good along the way. The danger, sheep or not, is only becoming overly attached to one way of doing things. Question everything, try everything, stick to nothing unless you can, with an objective eye, say its right.
But then you have the counterexample of shikyo (not to be rude to shikyo) who throws a bunch of stuff at the wall, and sometimes comes up with good stuff, and sometimes bad stuff, but gets really attached to the bad stuff as well as the clever things. He doesn't get attached to one way of doing things, but he also doesn't discriminate between the quality of new methods of doing things. I would say you should go more sheep/nonsheep depending on which you're better at. Some people are really highly skilled sheep and some people are really highly skilled nonsheep. If you're not ahead of the curve while trying to be a nonsheep don't bother. It's not like that time you spend trying to innovate is free anyway, you're getting worse practice/eating a chunk of your life doing so.
People also have the tendency to confuse the sheep/nonsheep skillsets with personal qualities (for example see the use of the word sheep...). They don't have anything to do with the personality or intelligence of the player.
These concepts are all much better developed in magic which has a much more involved metagame, with constant and dramatic shifts from week to week. You guys are used to the lol meta which is frankly stale by comparison.
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United States4053 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 06:05 mr_tolkien wrote:
Well, hard to be a sheep and be on TL Excuse me?
2strong
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The point I was trying to make was simply that rote copying other people does not make you better at this game. The point is to understand WHY they do things.
For example, I learned how to jungle by watching Saintvicious and copying EVERYTHING that he did. And that is what you should do. The difference between me, someone who went from 1100 to 1700+ elo, and the average sub 1200 player is that when I copied what he did I understood WHY he did things, which allowed me to be much more effective in a game than someone who just copies without thinking. For example, if you do a phoenix udyr game, knowing why SV builds the items he does enables you to make strategic playstyle and item choices that will win you games. I know why he does stuff, or can spend some time thinking about it to figure it out so that I actually improve while someone who just straight copies doesnt. And even then, what I get out of it is less than, say, what a 2k jungler would get out of it. But just being a sheep doesnt do anything for you.
This game does not reward you for doing exactly what the pros do. It rewards you for learning why they do what they do so that you can make your own split second decisions in game and plan out builds as the game unfolds. Being a sheep is bad. Being a thinking sheep is good.
This is how you get better at lol:
Step 1: find a pro who plays the position you want to learn and copy their champs, builds, playstyles, ect.
Step 2: As you play, start to think about and understand WHY they do what they do so that you can evolve to:
Step 3: Take your knowledge and adjust how you play and build in the same why that player would so you are as efficient as possible in game.
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9871 Posts
^^^^ well there we go. If you are good at being a sheep, it's good, if you aren't, it isn't, if you are good at being a nonsheep, it's good, if you aren't, it isn't, do whichever you're better at.
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Oh no I'm not streaming one of the spectators is.
@ Shiv: This is the first one I've ever been in, and our team is not.. fantastic for this. Our solo top doesn't even play 5s, he only plays 3s, so when they target banned his Singed he tried to play Cho'gath against GP and completely lost the lane. I thought I could just play a pushing game against Kassadin but my team wanted Caitlyn to mid instead. I have very little experience bot  .
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On January 30 2012 05:18 tobi9999 wrote:
EDIT: @Starfries, Chaox actually goes Triforce first over IE
It's good to be a sheep. Bad to not be a sheep.
Honestly, in Brood War all I did was copy builds from progamers. My friends who played just as much as I did, like to make up their builds. I was consistently able to get C rank from 2008-2009, while my friends were stuck at D+.
Even Dyrus says that every champion he plays outside of singed and jax is just copying what other people do. For example, he essentially copied Udyr from Rain Man, and a lot of other builds from random high ELO people in solo queue. He is easily able to get to top 50
On the other hand, Rain Man, who thinks everyone else is retarded for what they build, just makes up his own builds. Like triple dorans into PD , LW on solotop corki. He has a lot of trouble climbing solo queue ladder past top 200. Why? because he keeps on trying new stuff instead of copying what works, and loses a lot of games trying out this stuff.
Other solotop laners such as Wickd also just copy builds from other people, so I don't understand what's wrong being a sheep.
You're silly if you think Dyrus doesn't fuck around all the time in solo q. Dyrus is top 50 in the game because he's been playing since beta and he does it for a living. I've hung out with him irl and picked his brain and i realized that it's nothing but pure skill that puts him at the top. The build isn't what matters.
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So isn't this pretty much the same as it was with BW? You look at the pros do stuff, copy their successes, and through this imitation learn why they do things the way they do. Then you might disagree or find something that works better for you and through the prior learning you figure out how to adapt more and more. But regardless, when you first start playing and you are a low level player, it is better to imitate than try to figure things out on your own. It's more time efficient above anything to begin with.
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On January 30 2012 05:37 Offhand wrote:
Regarding clarity: What champs could possibly utilize it effectively? Most AP mids possess some cost-effective farming tool and have no use for clarity lategame (annie Q, veigar passive, malz dot, or just blow up a minion wave with a single ability a la Morg/Brand). Some like Xerath have early mana issues but d-ring stack openings are preferred on him. Supports don't run into mana problems. Junglers don't unless you lose blue and I don't want to take a summoner on the basis of "well they might steal blue and fuck me". AD carries don't spam abilities early or have lategame mana problems.
So no one has lategame mana issues, meaning clarity would only be useful on early game champs that need more out of their early game. I'd prefer a summoner that was useful the entire duration of the game personally.
i found clarity quite usefull on prebuff ap sion back when his lvl 18 mana pool was something like 280.
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On January 30 2012 05:18 tobi9999 wrote:
EDIT: @Starfries, Chaox actually goes Triforce first over IE
It's good to be a sheep. Bad to not be a sheep.
Honestly, in Brood War all I did was copy builds from progamers. My friends who played just as much as I did, like to make up their builds. I was consistently able to get C rank from 2008-2009, while my friends were stuck at D+.
Even Dyrus says that every champion he plays outside of singed and jax is just copying what other people do. For example, he essentially copied Udyr from Rain Man, and a lot of other builds from random high ELO people in solo queue. He is easily able to get to top 50
On the other hand, Rain Man, who thinks everyone else is retarded for what they build, just makes up his own builds. Like triple dorans into PD , LW on solotop corki. He has a lot of trouble climbing solo queue ladder past top 200. Why? because he keeps on trying new stuff instead of copying what works, and loses a lot of games trying out this stuff.
Other solotop laners such as Wickd also just copy builds from other people, so I don't understand what's wrong being a sheep.
It's rather silly comparing LoL pros to BW pros. One, LoL has a lot more variables (5v5 vs 1v1) and two, BW is a lot more established and "professional". With coaches and whatnot. Also, the time spent trying to figure out BW is probably 10x more than LoL. It doesn't help that LoL patches nonstop either.
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On January 30 2012 06:26 koreasilver wrote:
So isn't this pretty much the same as it was with BW? You look at the pros do stuff, copy their successes, and through this imitation learn why they do things the way they do. Then you might disagree or find something that works better for you and through the prior learning you figure out how to adapt more and more. But regardless, when you first start playing and you are a low level player, it is better to imitate than try to figure things out on your own. It's more time efficient above anything to begin with.
Yes. But the if someone asks you why you do something or try to answer a question in this thread, your reasoning should NEVER be "because X player does it." Either you know the reason why and are qualified to answer the question or you have the same level of knowledge as the person asking the question you tried to answer.
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I think we should stop using the word "sheep" because the discussion just became retarded thanks to this... Before the word "sheep" was used in rare cases when someone was 100% surely a sheep. Now it slowly starts being a word that is used when someone has a different opinion than you and brings out some source. It may be not the case yet but believe me, when someone broadens the definition of a word on the internet it slowly starts to sound retarded (just like words "noob" and "troll" used to be very specific definitions but later became simply another words used to flame someone)
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EPT
