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On January 30 2012 02:20 Two_DoWn wrote:
I seriously think that in addition to whatever mod notes Neo posts at the top of the forum the following message should be at the top of the list every patch:
"DO NOT BE A SHEEP. That means thinking for yourself, understanding why certain things are done, and above all, NEVER use or accept the argument: everyone does X, so it must be right."
I'd be okay with this but the reason everyone does X has solid justification. Like, for the AD build discussion, sure you can go Trinity Force and Wit's End as your first big items but by the time I have IE and Zeal I'm going to be doing more damage than you in a team fight. And considering that IE/Zeal is actually cheaper than Trinity/Wit's it doesn't matter that I'm less tanky than you so long as my team can protect me.
The reason fucking no one builds RoA on Annie anymore is because it doesn't fit on her. She doesn't need the mana, the extra health is nice but you're going to get just as much HP from 3Drings, and it delays your Deathcap which is far more useful in fights than RoA on Annie. Sure, you could play tank Annie but when my Dcap/Zhonya's Annie initiates better and does more damage to your entire team tank Annie seems kind of silly.
There are certainly extreme examples where "tank Annie" or "tanky AD carry" could work but in most games an optimal build for Annie doesn't involve RoA and an AD carry is going to get their super op damage items not the ones that offer them more utility or make them tankier.
Yeah, we shouldn't accept "everyone does this so it's correct" but when every pro builds this way it does speak for itself. Just like I'm not going to disagree with doctors who tell me that smoking is bad for me. I could certainly look up why smoking is bad for me but I don't think there's much harm in taking professionals at their word for why something is good.
edit:
Basically, figuring out why people do something is always good. But just taking them at their word isn't being a sheep. If you take them at their word and then someone challenges it then I'd consider it sheep-like behavior. But tank Annie or Trinity Force + Wit's End AD carry just sound really shitty compared to what's standard imo. An example of something that's popular right now that I'm not sure of would be the whole get 2 Dblades and then build Wriggle's on AD carries that EU players are doing. I don't think it's that good but I'm not gonna go get into an argument about that particular build because not only have I not tried it enough but I'm not at the level of play where I'm able to properly analyze how good that is at the top level. On paper that seems like a retarded build to me but if pro players are doing it then it must have some sort of merit.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
I'd be okay with this but the reason everyone does X has solid justification. Like, for the AD build discussion, sure you can go Trinity Force and Wit's End as your first big items but by the time I have IE and Zeal I'm going to be doing more damage than you in a team fight. And considering that IE/Zeal is actually cheaper than Trinity/Wit's it doesn't matter that I'm less tanky than you so long as my team can protect me.
I said this just last page. The assumption that "an AD that is properly protected/positioned will not take relevant damage" does not hold true anymore. It's a holdover from the way the hero pool looked a year ago when melee carries did not have insane mobility, and when APs didn't have ~1000 engagement range. The quality of anti-carrying and long range burst has gone up over the past year, but the quality of defensive CC hasn't.
On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
The reason fucking no one builds RoA on Annie anymore is because it doesn't fit on her. She doesn't need the mana, the extra health is nice but you're going to get just as much HP from 3Drings, and it delays your Deathcap which is far more useful in fights than RoA on Annie. Sure, you could play tank Annie but when my Dcap/Zhonya's Annie initiates better and does more damage to your entire team tank Annie seems kind of silly.
1) Since when is 300 HP from 3xDRing "just as much HP" as the 600+ from RoA?
2) Initiates better? Damage has nothing to do with initiating power. Having more damage doesn't make you a better initiator. In fact, being tanky probably makes you more of a better initiator. In fact the whole REASONING behind "tank Annie" is that you will play it in a team-comp that needs a tanky initiator rather than a primary damage dealer.
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If you think that RoA on Annie is just straight up inferior, then you are probably being a sheep.
Here's why tourney level players usually don't get RoA on Annie: They pick her for medium ranged heavy AoE burst damage. Obviously a fast Deathcap goes best with this.
Here's when you want to get RoA: You picked Annie because you kinda wanted to play her and she wouldn't be too bad. But you're in solo Q and just pressing QWER then having to run won't be enough, or if the enemy team is just very tanky, then you want more sustained damage/survivability.
Champs aren't limited to one precisely specified role. Depending on various factors the optimal build will vary. Obviously if you only ever pick a champ for one specific role then you only need a very limited set of builds.
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On January 30 2012 04:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
I'd be okay with this but the reason everyone does X has solid justification. Like, for the AD build discussion, sure you can go Trinity Force and Wit's End as your first big items but by the time I have IE and Zeal I'm going to be doing more damage than you in a team fight. And considering that IE/Zeal is actually cheaper than Trinity/Wit's it doesn't matter that I'm less tanky than you so long as my team can protect me. I said this just last page. The assumption that "an AD that is properly protected/positioned will not take relevant damage" does not hold true anymore. It's a holdover from the way the hero pool looked a year ago when melee carries did not have insane mobility, and when APs didn't have ~1000 engagement range. The quality of anti-carrying and long range burst has gone up over the past year, but the quality of defensive CC hasn't. Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
The reason fucking no one builds RoA on Annie anymore is because it doesn't fit on her. She doesn't need the mana, the extra health is nice but you're going to get just as much HP from 3Drings, and it delays your Deathcap which is far more useful in fights than RoA on Annie. Sure, you could play tank Annie but when my Dcap/Zhonya's Annie initiates better and does more damage to your entire team tank Annie seems kind of silly.
1) Since when is 300 HP from 3xDRing "just as much HP" as the 600+ from RoA? 2) Initiates better? Damage has nothing to do with initiating power. Having more damage doesn't make you a better initiator. In fact, being tanky probably makes you more of a better initiator. In fact the whole REASONING behind "tank Annie" is that you will play it in a team-comp that needs a tanky initiator rather than a primary damage dealer.
I don't think the solution to APs being able to initiate from further away is building Trinity/Wit's on your AD carry instead of actual late game damage items. And I still think that proper positioning will stop an AD from being instagibbed. You may take some damage from poke but the fight shouldn't start with you being initiated on as an AD carry. If it did then you just played poorly.
1) I was more referring to cata for lane phase but yeah, once you have RoA you're going to have more HP than a Drings Annie. I don't think that Annie needs the extra health either though because she isn't a duelist.
2) I was mostly referring to the Zhonya's active. As in, Annie can initiate, pop Zhonya's, and live far better than if you're building RoA/Rylai's as your first items. Dcap/Zhonya's Annie can't necessarily initiate better but she can initiate, not get blown up, and do more damage than a RoA/Rylai's build would let her do. If you're playing like Cassiopeia or Vladimir or something I could see getting tanky items on an AP carry but on an AP carry who's only role is to jump in and initiate fights/blow her load there's really no point in getting tanky.
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On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
Just like I'm not going to disagree with doctors who tell me that smoking is bad for me. I could certainly look up why smoking is bad for me but I don't think there's much harm in taking professionals at their word for why something is good.
I listen to doctors because they spent years and years in college, medical school and residency learning about this stuff, while my training amounts to reading the Wikipedia article. There are times when it's appropriate to trust in authority, but given that LoL "professionals" are not nearly at the level of other professionals, and the volatility of the LoL scene because of the constant patches, it's worth questioning things that are taken for granted and "everyone does".
That said I don't really like RoA on Annie either, even for initiation. Instagibbing someone is a much better initiation than just stunning them.
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In the past, Clarity had a use in some specific kill lanes, but ever singe the mana regen buffs (and especially the mastery changes) it's incredibly outclassed compared to Heal. Twodown has the right idea, it really needs some sort of passive benefit to be good enough to take in a real game, because as useful as burst mana regen can be for a champion like Taric or Karma, it doesn't compare defensively to Heal or offensively to Ignite or Exhaust.
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Not to derail the argument here, but is Lux any good? I played her last game and had a blast, but some kid in my game(although he was a feeding moron) was telling me she is never used in comp. play. Is that true?
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On January 30 2012 04:46 Mondeezy wrote:
Not to derail the argument here, but is Lux any good? I played her last game and had a blast, but some kid in my game(although he was a feeding moron) was telling me she is never used in comp. play. Is that true?
True, but when it works for you and you have a blast while playing her, why would you care.
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On January 30 2012 04:42 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
Just like I'm not going to disagree with doctors who tell me that smoking is bad for me. I could certainly look up why smoking is bad for me but I don't think there's much harm in taking professionals at their word for why something is good.
I listen to doctors because they spent years and years in college, medical school and residency learning about this stuff, while my training amounts to reading the Wikipedia article. There are times when it's appropriate to trust in authority, but given that LoL "professionals" are not nearly at the level of other professionals, and the volatility of the LoL scene because of the constant patches, it's worth questioning things that are taken for granted and "everyone does". That said I don't really like RoA on Annie either, even for initiation. Instagibbing someone is a much better initiation than just stunning them.
Yeah, I understand that, they certainly aren't as professional as doctors but these are people who make their money playing LoL. It's cool if you think that you have a better idea or think that an item build that is common is inferior. But people should realize that if an item build is truly superior to what is the current norm pro players are going to pick it up because it benefits them more than anyone else.
For example, no one builds Trinity anymore on Corki they rush IE on him. It may or may not be better on him, but that's just one example of things I saw people propose online a month or two ago and now most pros who run Corki in tournaments, scrims, or solo queue do it.
I'm totally cool with like mixing shit up and trying new things. I play solo top Alistar sometimes. But I don't advocate solo top Alistar as being better than his common role of support and sometimes jungle. I mean, I could, but in this example I don't think it's better. And maybe people are right in that tank Annie or tanky AD carry is superior. But for me personally those two builds just don't sound as good as the current norm.
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On January 30 2012 04:51 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:42 starfries wrote:On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
Just like I'm not going to disagree with doctors who tell me that smoking is bad for me. I could certainly look up why smoking is bad for me but I don't think there's much harm in taking professionals at their word for why something is good.
I listen to doctors because they spent years and years in college, medical school and residency learning about this stuff, while my training amounts to reading the Wikipedia article. There are times when it's appropriate to trust in authority, but given that LoL "professionals" are not nearly at the level of other professionals, and the volatility of the LoL scene because of the constant patches, it's worth questioning things that are taken for granted and "everyone does". That said I don't really like RoA on Annie either, even for initiation. Instagibbing someone is a much better initiation than just stunning them. Yeah, I understand that, they certainly aren't as professional as doctors but these are people who make their money playing LoL. It's cool if you think that you have a better idea or think that an item build that is common is inferior. But people should realize that if an item build is truly superior to what is the current norm pro players are going to pick it up because it benefits them more than anyone else. For example, no one builds Trinity anymore on Corki they rush IE on him. It may or may not be better on him, but that's just one example of things I saw people propose online a month or two ago and now most pros who run Corki in tournaments, scrims, or solo queue do it. I'm totally cool with like mixing shit up and trying new things. I play solo top Alistar sometimes. But I don't advocate solo top Alistar as being better than his common role of support and sometimes jungle. I mean, I could, but in this example I don't think it's better. And maybe people are right in that tank Annie or tanky AD carry is superior. But for me personally those two builds just don't sound as good as the current norm.
People still build trinity on corki. In tourneys they build trinity on corki roughly half the time. It depends on who's playing him 'cause different playstyles and philosophies merit different builds.
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On January 30 2012 04:51 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:42 starfries wrote:On January 30 2012 04:14 overt wrote:
Just like I'm not going to disagree with doctors who tell me that smoking is bad for me. I could certainly look up why smoking is bad for me but I don't think there's much harm in taking professionals at their word for why something is good.
I listen to doctors because they spent years and years in college, medical school and residency learning about this stuff, while my training amounts to reading the Wikipedia article. There are times when it's appropriate to trust in authority, but given that LoL "professionals" are not nearly at the level of other professionals, and the volatility of the LoL scene because of the constant patches, it's worth questioning things that are taken for granted and "everyone does". That said I don't really like RoA on Annie either, even for initiation. Instagibbing someone is a much better initiation than just stunning them. Yeah, I understand that, they certainly aren't as professional as doctors but these are people who make their money playing LoL. It's cool if you think that you have a better idea or think that an item build that is common is inferior. But people should realize that if an item build is truly superior to what is the current norm pro players are going to pick it up because it benefits them more than anyone else. For example, no one builds Trinity anymore on Corki they rush IE on him. It may or may not be better on him, but that's just one example of things I saw people propose online a month or two ago and now most pros who run Corki in tournaments, scrims, or solo queue do it. I'm totally cool with like mixing shit up and trying new things. I play solo top Alistar sometimes. But I don't advocate solo top Alistar as being better than his common role of support and sometimes jungle. I mean, I could, but in this example I don't think it's better. And maybe people are right in that tank Annie or tanky AD carry is superior. But for me personally those two builds just don't sound as good as the current norm.
Yeah, the only real issue is that "this LoL pro does this" is often used as an argument in and of itself (which you probably don't even do). Like, if Chaox says something it's probably RIGHT, but the fact that he said it isn't the reason it's right. It's like looking up the answer key in the back of a textbook - you know the right answer but not the whole solution. If all you want to do is just play the game with a reasonable build then that's all the information you need. But if you want to know when it's appropriate to build this item and when it's better to build something else, then it's worth having a discussion to figure out the reasons behind the conclusions.
So for Corki, if Chaox says that rushing IE is better right now, then I'm going to believe him (also given that I know fuck all about Corki and have no opinion of my own). But I still want to know why Triforce was popular before, why IE is popular now, and from there maybe be able to figure out shifts in the meta or balance changes or specific team comps will make Triforce a better build.
@tobi9999 lol ok, I know fuckall about Corki so I'm just gonna leave it as it is
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EDIT: @Starfries, Chaox actually goes Triforce first over IE
It's good to be a sheep. Bad to not be a sheep.
Honestly, in Brood War all I did was copy builds from progamers. My friends who played just as much as I did, like to make up their builds. I was consistently able to get C rank from 2008-2009, while my friends were stuck at D+.
Even Dyrus says that every champion he plays outside of singed and jax is just copying what other people do. For example, he essentially copied Udyr from Rain Man, and a lot of other builds from random high ELO people in solo queue. He is easily able to get to top 50
On the other hand, Rain Man, who thinks everyone else is retarded for what they build, just makes up his own builds. Like triple dorans into PD , LW on solotop corki. He has a lot of trouble climbing solo queue ladder past top 200. Why? because he keeps on trying new stuff instead of copying what works, and loses a lot of games trying out this stuff.
Other solotop laners such as Wickd also just copy builds from other people, so I don't understand what's wrong being a sheep.
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On January 30 2012 04:48 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 04:46 Mondeezy wrote:
Not to derail the argument here, but is Lux any good? I played her last game and had a blast, but some kid in my game(although he was a feeding moron) was telling me she is never used in comp. play. Is that true? True, but when it works for you and you have a blast while playing her, why would you care.
Actually I'm gonna play in a tournament in about 5 minutes (just a fun little tournament in my uni), and my favorite APs are Lux, LB and Ahri. Yesterday they target banned LB and Ahri is a very popular ban, and I'm likely to play the ap mid role. Is Lux viable at all with a cooperative team or should I just gun for one of the more popluar APs?
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She's not the best at what she does, doesn't mean she doesn't work.
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Not being a sheep isn't automatically good or bad. The question is, if you're not the sheep what are you? If you're a dolphin/chimpanzee props to you good sir. Conversely, if you're an ostrich, eh, better be a sheep.
Just the fact that people may do their own builds doesn't mean those builds will be good. You need to have solid theorycrafting behind that stuff. Also, theorycrafting item builds is way easier that build in scbw lol.
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On January 30 2012 05:18 tobi9999 wrote:
EDIT: @Starfries, Chaox actually goes Triforce first over IE
It's good to be a sheep. Bad to not be a sheep.
Honestly, in Brood War all I did was copy builds from progamers. My friends who played just as much as I did, like to make up their builds. I was consistently able to get C rank from 2008-2009, while my friends were stuck at D+.
Even Dyrus says that every champion he plays outside of singed and jax is just copying what other people do. For example, he essentially copied Udyr from Rain Man, and a lot of other builds from random high ELO people in solo queue. He is easily able to get to top 50
On the other hand, Rain Man, who thinks everyone else is retarded for what they build, just makes up his own builds. Like triple dorans into PD , LW on solotop corki. He has a lot of trouble climbing solo queue ladder past top 200. Why? because he keeps on trying new stuff instead of copying what works, and loses a lot of games trying out this stuff.
Other solotop laners such as Wickd also just copy builds from other people, so I don't understand what's wrong being a sheep.
Eh maybe you're forgetting that rainman has been rank 1 multiple times for both season 1 and 2. Also Wickd doesn't force every team to ban irelia by copying people. I think you're overrating "sheep." I'm sure being innovative is not what caused your friends to stay at D+ in bw where mechanics can win you every game no matter what build you do.
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Regarding clarity: What champs could possibly utilize it effectively? Most AP mids possess some cost-effective farming tool and have no use for clarity lategame (annie Q, veigar passive, malz dot, or just blow up a minion wave with a single ability a la Morg/Brand). Some like Xerath have early mana issues but d-ring stack openings are preferred on him. Supports don't run into mana problems. Junglers don't unless you lose blue and I don't want to take a summoner on the basis of "well they might steal blue and fuck me". AD carries don't spam abilities early or have lategame mana problems.
So no one has lategame mana issues, meaning clarity would only be useful on early game champs that need more out of their early game. I'd prefer a summoner that was useful the entire duration of the game personally.
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On January 30 2012 05:37 Offhand wrote:
Regarding clarity: What champs could possibly utilize it effectively? Most AP mids possess some cost-effective farming tool and have no use for clarity lategame (annie Q, veigar passive, malz dot, or just blow up a minion wave with a single ability a la Morg/Brand). Some like Xerath have early mana issues but d-ring stack openings are preferred on him. Supports don't run into mana problems. Junglers don't unless you lose blue and I don't want to take a summoner on the basis of "well they might steal blue and fuck me". AD carries don't spam abilities early or have lategame mana problems.
So no one has lategame mana issues, meaning clarity would only be useful on early game champs that need more out of their early game. I'd prefer a summoner that was useful the entire duration of the game personally.
If it restored energy I'd use it all the time 
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There are several reasons you might want to be a "sheep" in LoL.
1) Game isn't close to being 100% figured out yet and frequent patches keep it that way. So while the builds, picks etc. of the pro players are almost certainly better than what the average 1200s scrub would come up with, but aren't necessarily the absolute best. This is not SC2 where ~10 years of no balance changes as well as the nature of the game have allowed certain parts of the game to seem effectively solved.
2) If you question (within reason) why everyone is doing something, or thinks something is bad, then you will also be able to understand when they are occasionally wrong, or when a general rule does not apply in a specific situation.
At the same time, if the general (high skill) community thinks something is true, there's a pretty good chance that they're right. So you should respect that within reason.
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On January 30 2012 04:46 Mondeezy wrote:
Not to derail the argument here, but is Lux any good? I played her last game and had a blast, but some kid in my game(although he was a feeding moron) was telling me she is never used in comp. play. Is that true?
I can't recall seeing ever seeing her in a tournament game but she is exceedingly good, just because nobody in the group of maybe 50 tournament players that people see regularly plays her doesn't really mean anything.
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EPT
