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On January 17 2012 07:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
It wont help measurably in a single clear time. But think about the time it takes to get from spawn to wolves after you recall. From lane back to jungle. One side of the jungle to the other. You spend a SHIT TON of time wandering around in the jungle. Even the most optimized jungler has to spend a lot of travel time. Anything that shaves time off that is worth it IMO.
"Worth it" is not the same as "this is more important than anything else", which was the implication of your original statement.
The total travel distance from Fountain to Wolves + Wolves to Near Lane + Near Lane to Wolves + Wolves to Wraiths + Wraiths to Golems + Golems to Wolves is roughly 33200 units (based on rough measurements I made shortly after the remake). At 370 movespeed it takes 89.7 seconds to travel those distances. At 377 movespeed it takes 88 seconds, a difference of 1.7 seconds. So a point in Improved Recall is more than twice as effective as a point in Swiftness.
Again, my argument isn't that movespeed is bad, but that clearing the jungle has very little to do with why it's good.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2012 07:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
It wont help measurably in a single clear time. But think about the time it takes to get from spawn to wolves after you recall. From lane back to jungle. One side of the jungle to the other. You spend a SHIT TON of time wandering around in the jungle. Even the most optimized jungler has to spend a lot of travel time. Anything that shaves time off that is worth it IMO.
Movespeed quints make a bigger difference at significantly smaller opportunity cost.
If you don't need the mp5, then go 9 offense. Movespeed is a good stat, yes, but not at the opportunity cost that you're paying for it on the Swiftness mastery.
This is the exact same reason why the stupid ArPen vs. AD Marks discussions always take 5 pages to resolve. People just look at "I like this stat--this stat is important to me." They don't look at how comparatively bad the opportunity cost is on getting that stat from a particular source is compared to other potential sources of that stat.
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On January 17 2012 08:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
It wont help measurably in a single clear time. But think about the time it takes to get from spawn to wolves after you recall. From lane back to jungle. One side of the jungle to the other. You spend a SHIT TON of time wandering around in the jungle. Even the most optimized jungler has to spend a lot of travel time. Anything that shaves time off that is worth it IMO. Movespeed quints make a bigger difference at significantly smaller opportunity cost. If you don't need the mp5, then go 9 offense. Movespeed is a good stat, yes, but not at the opportunity cost that you're paying for it on the Swiftness mastery.
Buff duration.
After that its just do I want MP5 (no, cuz 3 mp5 sucks), so its swiftness.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2012 08:16 Two_DoWn wrote:
Buff duration.
After that its just do I want MP5 (no, cuz 3 mp5 sucks), so its swiftness.
Buff duration and % pen are are equally game-changing on a jungler. Particularly if you're passing off your buffs from 2nd spawn onward, buff duration on yourself is not as big as you're making it out to be.
Comparing the rest of the stats, I'd rather have the stuff in 9 offense on junglers who don't care about 3 mp5.
EDIT: You ARE aware that Saint gets 3 points Meditation, right (seeing as you cited him in discussing Phoenixdyr)?
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Dunno what all the fuss is about I take ALL of them initator swiftness and movement speed quints 9.5% movement speed bonus huehuehue.
I have no idea why you'd go something other than 21 defense on pheonix udyr when offensive tree all gives stats that don't benefit a hybrid damage champ like udyr as much.
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On January 17 2012 08:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:16 Two_DoWn wrote:
Buff duration.
After that its just do I want MP5 (no, cuz 3 mp5 sucks), so its swiftness. Buff duration and % pen are are equally game-changing on a jungler. Particularly if you're passing off your buffs from 2nd spawn onward, buff duration on yourself is not as big as you're making it out to be. Comparing the rest of the stats, I'd rather have the stuff in 9 offense on junglers who don't care about 3 mp5. EDIT: You ARE aware that Saint gets 3 points Meditation, right (seeing as you cited him in discussing Phoenixdyr)?
Cited Saint with carry skarner, not phoenix udyr.
Even udyr doesnt need the mana though. Costs are low enough after first clear that you dont actually need blue or regen.
And you are discounting buff duration on red. In the current jungle, 99% of kills on ganks are due to red buff. Even someone like WW needs red buff simply because the list of combos who can 100-0 someone is basically leblanc & maokai. Buff duration extends your threat potential by a game-changing amount.
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Since we're on the topic of Meditation, do people usually get it when they're playing AP mid? I take Swiftness. I very rarely have mana issues in lane unless I'm being extremely aggressive. Haven't that extra move speed on a mage is great, imo.
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I was a kayle fighting lee sin lvl2. Sin manages to steal red buff from my jungle, but I fight him and he's at like 25% health while I'm 75%. How did he kill me? We both exhausted at the same time. wtf... -_-
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On January 17 2012 08:33 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Since we're on the topic of Meditation, do people usually get it when they're playing AP mid? I take Swiftness. I very rarely have mana issues in lane unless I'm being extremely aggressive. Haven't that extra move speed on a mage is great, imo.
that totally depends imo. i would get speed on annie and mana on morgana for example.
I was a kayle fighting lee sin lvl2. Sin manages to steal red buff from my jungle, but I fight him and he's at like 25% health while I'm 75%. How did he kill me? We both exhausted at the same time. wtf... -_-
xin is scary early on, when he lands a Q you are in BIG trouble. he probably also leveld E, which is even more trouble for you when he is ontop of you.
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On EU, if you click on the shop RIGHT now Malzahar, Alistar, Fiddle and Galio show the chinese art.
Dno why but I had to share this. :>
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On January 17 2012 08:34 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
I was a kayle fighting lee sin lvl2. Sin manages to steal red buff from my jungle, but I fight him and he's at like 25% health while I'm 75%. How did he kill me? We both exhausted at the same time. wtf... -_-
Lee Sin, Skarner, and Nocturne are my top three "I really don't want to fight them 1v1, because even if I feel like I can take them, they're probably going to kill me and have 25% of their health left somehow" group.
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On January 17 2012 08:33 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Since we're on the topic of Meditation, do people usually get it when they're playing AP mid? I take Swiftness. I very rarely have mana issues in lane unless I'm being extremely aggressive. Haven't that extra move speed on a mage is great, imo.
I run movespeed quints on my AP page (okay on almost every page), so I get only 2 points in movespeed and 2 in manaregen.
I feel like the 2 mp/5 make a very noticeable difference, but maybe I just love da spammin'
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On January 17 2012 09:13 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:34 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
I was a kayle fighting lee sin lvl2. Sin manages to steal red buff from my jungle, but I fight him and he's at like 25% health while I'm 75%. How did he kill me? We both exhausted at the same time. wtf... -_- Lee Sin, Skarner, and Nocturne are my top three "I really don't want to fight them 1v1, because even if I feel like I can take them, they're probably going to kill me and have 25% of their health left somehow" group.
all of them have a shield and a healing/lifesteal ability (nocturne's is spell only) so thats why they tend to win very close 1v1 fights.
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On January 17 2012 09:09 r.Evo wrote:
On EU, if you click on the shop RIGHT now Malzahar, Alistar, Fiddle and Galio show the chinese art.
Dno why but I had to share this. :>
Someone said those four champs were getting new icons several weeks ago. I guess this is that.
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On January 17 2012 09:25 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:09 r.Evo wrote:
On EU, if you click on the shop RIGHT now Malzahar, Alistar, Fiddle and Galio show the chinese art.
Dno why but I had to share this. :> Someone said those four champs were getting new icons several weeks ago. I guess this is that.
i like the American Malz > the Chinese Malz :s
everything else can go through though
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On January 17 2012 08:33 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Since we're on the topic of Meditation, do people usually get it when they're playing AP mid? I take Swiftness. I very rarely have mana issues in lane unless I'm being extremely aggressive. Haven't that extra move speed on a mage is great, imo.
I think the movespeed is better on just about every AP carry. But then again, I don't really have mana issues even with champs that use a lot of mana. I think that with almost every AP carry it's more of an issue of just having good mana management.
There's exceptions for like Swain, Anivia, and others who you're going to go OOM with eventually but you should have catalyst before you start running into severe mana issues. Not to mention blue buff. And most of the mana issues with those champs are outside of lane phase like dragon fights and ganks and stuff.
Just as clarification, I see most masteries (with exceptions to like Executioner and a few others) as things to help me in lane phase. I don't find Meditation to be that useful in lane.
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On January 17 2012 09:28 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:25 Craton wrote:On January 17 2012 09:09 r.Evo wrote:
On EU, if you click on the shop RIGHT now Malzahar, Alistar, Fiddle and Galio show the chinese art.
Dno why but I had to share this. :> Someone said those four champs were getting new icons several weeks ago. I guess this is that. i like the American Malz > the Chinese Malz :s everything else can go through though
I don't like the chinese galio. I don't really like the american galio either though.
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On January 17 2012 09:13 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:34 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
I was a kayle fighting lee sin lvl2. Sin manages to steal red buff from my jungle, but I fight him and he's at like 25% health while I'm 75%. How did he kill me? We both exhausted at the same time. wtf... -_- Lee Sin, Skarner, and Nocturne are my top three "I really don't want to fight them 1v1, because even if I feel like I can take them, they're probably going to kill me and have 25% of their health left somehow" group.
And then there's Morde, where you run into him in a bush and he ends up with more health than when he started and a brand new ghost.
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GG Riot server. Everyone jsut froze
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
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EPT
