|
On January 17 2012 06:44 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 03:45 Shiv. wrote:
Alright, so I'm currently playing HORRIBLY and decided to go take a break from my usual patterns and rather go practice some new champs for each role. Currently, my mains are Kennen/Panth/WW top, Skarner/Mao/The Moose in the jungle, Kennen/Brand mid and Soraka/Sona support. I rarely ever play AD.
I have looked over some past games and have come to realize I sacrifice too much farm for harassing my opponent and was thinking about champs who either excell well at farming while harassing or have such a beast late game you don't even have to worry about harassing your opponents. Boredom plays a pretty big role here I feel and I really want to change things up. Basically meaning learning a couple of champs from the get-go and try to get every single last hit each game.
So I thought, hell, go learn Singed/GP, Ahri/Fizz/Ryze, Nocturne/Lee, Corki/Sivir.
Any other suggestions? if you want to huehuehue farm, i would suggest singed, mordekaiser, vlad, renekton, cass, malz, karthus, sion, all heroes that spam down waves and then go do other stuff. The secret weapon of abusive pushers is actually corki mid, stick on a chalice on him and you just. Can't. Stop him from farming.
Literally the ONLY champions in the game I feel fine JUST farming and not harassing at all are Vayne and Riven. Both because they outscale any possible counterpart on the enemy team just so damn hard. :>
|
Udyr gains more out of the MS bonus and the CDR and the tenacity + health than he would going deeper into the offensive tree. Udyr doesn't need armor penetration, he doesn't need life steal, and he doesn't need crit. The MS, CDR, and tenacity allow him to cycle through his stances more and actually be right at the face of the enemy team which allows him to do more damage while also being more survivable. He literally gains nothing from the offensive tree besides the AS but he simply gains more by putting the points into defense than offense by a significant margin.
|
|
|
On January 17 2012 06:40 r.Evo wrote:
My thoughtprocess kinda goes like this: 9 points give me the mres/armor bonus and either bladed armor or 3/4 points in the health/level thing.
The next cool stuff is the MS bonus at 70% health and the cdr/level. 3% health is like nothing even when you stack health (+100 health at 3k total, come on).
So what I get out of defensive tree is a nonpermanent MS buff, 10% tenacity (which afaik stacks multiplicative with mercs etc.) and like 8% cdr at lvl 18.
How do those stats help me achieve my goal of being a disruptive tanky champion?
Taking Singed as an example, instead I can get +AP/AD, AP/level, 5% on my total AP and more damage to targets below 40% health. Assuming I'm the tankiest champion on the team I will be in way more situations where I'm one of the last ones standing and dealing damage.
Like, defensive tree to me just sounds cute and utility-like, but not as if it makes me more tanky or more a pain in the ass for the enemy team.
Well, you also have to look at what you are runing and itemizing. Lets use skarner as an example.
You are going to rune attack speed, resists, and movespeed. You are going to itemize the same. So what are you going to mastery? Tanky dps does damage by just being alive. 1 extra q will always do more damage than adding on damage to an auto attack. So spending mastery points in health (which scale with resists), cdr, ms, and tenacity will help you do your job a lot better than tacking on ad, a bit more as, or armpen. It just doesnt do that much for you.
The next logical question is "well what if I want to do Saint style triforce skarner?"
Well next logical question asker, here is my answer. You still want to go defensive masteries because you still have the same job to do. ESPECIALLY if you are ditching defensive items, you want to make sure that you can squeeze out as much free survivability as possible, especially for the midgame.
That isnt to say I dont run defense on every jungle- I just do it on the ones who I am going to do the support build on. Offensive junglers like shaco, GP, lee sin, and nocturne- the ones who are going to aim to become carries by actually scaling their offensive prowess through items are all 21-9 for me.
|
That might be good if you're planning on afk farming but have fun trying to gank with absolutely none of the MS masteries as Udyr. You'd have to burn a flash every single time.
|
omg Chu8 is so cute XD gets DFG as first item on top mumu
|
are we talking about phoenix udyr? Tiger udyr i go full offense because i run him almost as an assassin, since the only benefit of tiger is tons of single target burst damage (and really fast barons). Even on my defense junglers i split my points and get magic pen, some defense and the rune buff. I don't like full defense, the second to last row just has too many dead points. All this talk as if you can't gank without these movespeed bonuses, lol wut.
|
On January 17 2012 06:52 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:40 r.Evo wrote:
My thoughtprocess kinda goes like this: 9 points give me the mres/armor bonus and either bladed armor or 3/4 points in the health/level thing.
The next cool stuff is the MS bonus at 70% health and the cdr/level. 3% health is like nothing even when you stack health (+100 health at 3k total, come on).
So what I get out of defensive tree is a nonpermanent MS buff, 10% tenacity (which afaik stacks multiplicative with mercs etc.) and like 8% cdr at lvl 18.
How do those stats help me achieve my goal of being a disruptive tanky champion?
Taking Singed as an example, instead I can get +AP/AD, AP/level, 5% on my total AP and more damage to targets below 40% health. Assuming I'm the tankiest champion on the team I will be in way more situations where I'm one of the last ones standing and dealing damage.
Like, defensive tree to me just sounds cute and utility-like, but not as if it makes me more tanky or more a pain in the ass for the enemy team. Well, you also have to look at what you are runing and itemizing. Lets use skarner as an example. You are going to rune attack speed, resists, and movespeed. You are going to itemize the same. So what are you going to mastery? Tanky dps does damage by just being alive. 1 extra q will always do more damage than adding on damage to an auto attack. So spending mastery points in health (which scale with resists), cdr, ms, and tenacity will help you do your job a lot better than tacking on ad, a bit more as, or armpen. It just doesnt do that much for you. The next logical question is "well what if I want to do Saint style triforce skarner?" Well next logical question asker, here is my answer. You still want to go defensive masteries because you still have the same job to do. ESPECIALLY if you are ditching defensive items, you want to make sure that you can squeeze out as much free survivability as possible, especially for the midgame. That isnt to say I dont run defense on every jungle- I just do it on the ones who I am going to do the support build on. Offensive junglers like shaco, GP, lee sin, and nocturne- the ones who are going to aim to become carries by actually scaling their offensive prowess through items are all 21-9 for me.
Hmm.. what does "support build" mean to you?
For me, when I'm in the loading screen it is highly likely that I'm not sure yet which type of build I'm going to run because I always itemize "as much dps as possible, as much tank as necessary" on my junglers. That can mean ending up with Aegis, Randuins, Shurelyas - but that can also mean Wits End -> Phage -> Sheen -> Randuins -> Triforce, all depending on who gets fed how early in the game.
Considering that I want both defensive and offensive stats the offensive tree gives me more offense than the defensive tree gives me defense. (I think this is my main point)
What actually DOES happen ingame is something I have to adjust to by buying the correct items. 10% tenacity, some health/level and cdr/level are solid, no question, but they're not exactly "defensive" stats. They're imo (besides the health) more utility than defensive.
Edit:
On January 17 2012 06:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
are we talking about phoenix udyr? Tiger udyr i go full offense because i run him almost as an assassin, since the only benefit of tiger is tons of single target burst damage (and really fast barons). Even on my defense junglers i split my points and get magic pen, some defense and the rune buff. I don't like full defense, the second to last row just has too many dead points. All this talk as if you can't gank without these movespeed bonuses, lol wut.
Yeah, phoenix. I used to run like 12 - 9 - 9 on stuff like Skarner/Udyr but realized I'm giving away buffs all the time anyway and started pushing the left over points into offense. Literally the ONLY jungler I can't get away from mah mp5 and buff duration is Maokai.
|
My point is that even though offense gives more in terms of sheer gold value, defense is worth more in terms of actual winning the game value on certain junglers.
And I consider support jungle to be anyone that is going to open a regrowth->philo then grab a hog. So skarner, maokai, rammus, amumu. I also run defense on phoenix udyr, shyvana, alistar.
|
On January 17 2012 06:55 CeriseCherries wrote:
omg Chu8 is so cute XD gets DFG as first item on top mumu
told u all pages back, mumus ratios are insanity. been playing him ap since i was like lvl 5, tears nerds apart
|
On January 17 2012 07:14 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:55 CeriseCherries wrote:
omg Chu8 is so cute XD gets DFG as first item on top mumu told u all pages back, mumus ratios are insanity. been playing him ap since i was like lvl 5, tears nerds apart
I believe now o.o he is 18-5 mumu
|
ap amumu is like the sickest engage hero in the game, even if you q r e die youve taken their entire team to 50%.
his passive is probably one of the most op things in the game but noone talks about it and against auto hit heroes you just get lichbane and spam e at them for 100000 dps
|
On January 17 2012 06:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:34 TheYango wrote:On January 17 2012 06:28 Two_DoWn wrote:Low defense tree is actually useful for people who want early tank. For example, this is what I run on tanky junglers. It essentially makes it so you dont take damage from minions and makes opening regrowth not suck quite so bad. Minor quip: I'd get 3 points Meditation rather than 4 points Swiftness. 1 mp5 per point is as good as it ever was--hell, with the old masteries it was a toss-up between ditching 1 Meditation vs 1 Swiftness when you got a point in Greed. 1 mp5 was exactly comparable to 1% MS. And now Swiftness is half as good? Seems like a no-brainer to me. 0.5% MS per point is terrible by comparison. Meh. I typically have no use for mana regen. I either have blue, or a philo which is all the mana regen I need. It really doesnt matter if the movespeed is reduced: the currency in new jungle is movespeed- how fast you can get from camp to camp. Someone with movespeed will always be ahead of someone without it.
Movespeed barely increases your clearing speed*. Movespeed is important because it helps mitigate the costs of leaving the jungle to gank and counter-jungle, and also increases the effectiveness of ganking. Clearing speed also becomes less of an issue as the game goes on, whereas moving faster is always useful.
*Swiftness is 6-7 movespeed. That saves you 2/10ths of a second when traveling between camps, totaling 6/10ths over the course of a clear. That's not significant enough to cite camp-to-camp traveling as the reason movespeed is important to jungling.
|
On January 17 2012 04:04 dooraven wrote:
Jesus christ never ever let Froggen get Anivia in tournaments, destroyed the hell out of aAa with a spirit vessage-abyssal-archangel-shrulias build.
Why spirit visage on Anivia?
|
On January 17 2012 07:23 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:38 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 17 2012 06:34 TheYango wrote:On January 17 2012 06:28 Two_DoWn wrote:Low defense tree is actually useful for people who want early tank. For example, this is what I run on tanky junglers. It essentially makes it so you dont take damage from minions and makes opening regrowth not suck quite so bad. Minor quip: I'd get 3 points Meditation rather than 4 points Swiftness. 1 mp5 per point is as good as it ever was--hell, with the old masteries it was a toss-up between ditching 1 Meditation vs 1 Swiftness when you got a point in Greed. 1 mp5 was exactly comparable to 1% MS. And now Swiftness is half as good? Seems like a no-brainer to me. 0.5% MS per point is terrible by comparison. Meh. I typically have no use for mana regen. I either have blue, or a philo which is all the mana regen I need. It really doesnt matter if the movespeed is reduced: the currency in new jungle is movespeed- how fast you can get from camp to camp. Someone with movespeed will always be ahead of someone without it. Movespeed barely increases your clearing speed*. Movespeed is important because it helps mitigate the costs of leaving the jungle to gank and counter-jungle, and also increases the effectiveness of ganking. Clearing speed also becomes less of an issue as the game goes on, whereas moving faster is always useful. *Swiftness is 6-7 movespeed. That saves you 2/10ths of a second when traveling between camps, totaling 6/10ths over the course of a clear. That's not significant enough to cite camp-to-camp traveling as the reason movespeed is important to jungling.
Thats like saying its ok if you miss an extra last hit a wave because its only 23 gold. Dont leave it on the table. Ever. ESPECIALLY since most jungles have NO need for extra mp5.
|
On January 17 2012 07:28 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:23 Seuss wrote:On January 17 2012 06:38 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 17 2012 06:34 TheYango wrote:On January 17 2012 06:28 Two_DoWn wrote:Low defense tree is actually useful for people who want early tank. For example, this is what I run on tanky junglers. It essentially makes it so you dont take damage from minions and makes opening regrowth not suck quite so bad. Minor quip: I'd get 3 points Meditation rather than 4 points Swiftness. 1 mp5 per point is as good as it ever was--hell, with the old masteries it was a toss-up between ditching 1 Meditation vs 1 Swiftness when you got a point in Greed. 1 mp5 was exactly comparable to 1% MS. And now Swiftness is half as good? Seems like a no-brainer to me. 0.5% MS per point is terrible by comparison. Meh. I typically have no use for mana regen. I either have blue, or a philo which is all the mana regen I need. It really doesnt matter if the movespeed is reduced: the currency in new jungle is movespeed- how fast you can get from camp to camp. Someone with movespeed will always be ahead of someone without it. Movespeed barely increases your clearing speed*. Movespeed is important because it helps mitigate the costs of leaving the jungle to gank and counter-jungle, and also increases the effectiveness of ganking. Clearing speed also becomes less of an issue as the game goes on, whereas moving faster is always useful. *Swiftness is 6-7 movespeed. That saves you 2/10ths of a second when traveling between camps, totaling 6/10ths over the course of a clear. That's not significant enough to cite camp-to-camp traveling as the reason movespeed is important to jungling. Thats like saying its ok if you miss an extra last hit a wave because its only 23 gold. Dont leave it on the table. Ever. ESPECIALLY since most jungles have NO need for extra mp5.
I'm not saying Swiftness is bad. I'm saying "camp-to-camp" clear times are irrelevant to why it's good, something you cited as the reason for taking it.
|
On January 17 2012 06:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
are we talking about phoenix udyr? Tiger udyr i go full offense because i run him almost as an assassin, since the only benefit of tiger is tons of single target burst damage (and really fast barons). Even on my defense junglers i split my points and get magic pen, some defense and the rune buff. I don't like full defense, the second to last row just has too many dead points. All this talk as if you can't gank without these movespeed bonuses, lol wut.
Udyr already has a pretty piss poor ganking ability. Unless your enemy lanes are over extending like mad retards Udyr ganks will often fail to even land one stun. There's a reason why Jatt/SV/TOO have all always taken defense/utility + ms quints both prior to the mastery tree change and after, and Jatt always rushed boots 2. You have to shove as much ms into your build as you can as Udyr if you want to consistently have threatening ganks.
Also, people are underrating the cdr masteries way too much. A lot of tanky champions gain a lot from them.
|
lol 23 gold is way better than 6/10ths of a second. I'm pretty sure movespeed is so you can outrun people. Your actual speed doesn't matter, if you can outrun the other guy then counterjungling is much safer.
|
On January 17 2012 07:28 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:23 Seuss wrote:On January 17 2012 06:38 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 17 2012 06:34 TheYango wrote:On January 17 2012 06:28 Two_DoWn wrote:Low defense tree is actually useful for people who want early tank. For example, this is what I run on tanky junglers. It essentially makes it so you dont take damage from minions and makes opening regrowth not suck quite so bad. Minor quip: I'd get 3 points Meditation rather than 4 points Swiftness. 1 mp5 per point is as good as it ever was--hell, with the old masteries it was a toss-up between ditching 1 Meditation vs 1 Swiftness when you got a point in Greed. 1 mp5 was exactly comparable to 1% MS. And now Swiftness is half as good? Seems like a no-brainer to me. 0.5% MS per point is terrible by comparison. Meh. I typically have no use for mana regen. I either have blue, or a philo which is all the mana regen I need. It really doesnt matter if the movespeed is reduced: the currency in new jungle is movespeed- how fast you can get from camp to camp. Someone with movespeed will always be ahead of someone without it. Movespeed barely increases your clearing speed*. Movespeed is important because it helps mitigate the costs of leaving the jungle to gank and counter-jungle, and also increases the effectiveness of ganking. Clearing speed also becomes less of an issue as the game goes on, whereas moving faster is always useful. *Swiftness is 6-7 movespeed. That saves you 2/10ths of a second when traveling between camps, totaling 6/10ths over the course of a clear. That's not significant enough to cite camp-to-camp traveling as the reason movespeed is important to jungling. Thats like saying its ok if you miss an extra last hit a wave because its only 23 gold. Dont leave it on the table. Ever. ESPECIALLY since most jungles have NO need for extra mp5.
Most junglers don't NEED more mp5 to jungle, but it will let them use more mana in the jungle (faster clear) and still have enough mana to gank.
Of course, 6-7 ms could be helpful in a gank, or could help you escape. But I'm not so sure it actually increases your clear time compared to the mp5.
|
It wont help measurably in a single clear time. But think about the time it takes to get from spawn to wolves after you recall. From lane back to jungle. One side of the jungle to the other. You spend a SHIT TON of time wandering around in the jungle. Even the most optimized jungler has to spend a lot of travel time. Anything that shaves time off that is worth it IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
