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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
On December 15 2011 23:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 23:51 r.Evo wrote:
Since CV got nerfed for its WHERE IS DAT JUNGLE use but is still the same good ol' terran scan for mid/lategame (imo, give CV true vision for a while and see how THAT goes. Loads of fun incoming.) - that basicly means that if you have a consistent way of checking for those Barons/Brushes I think rolling without CV is fine.
Stuff like Orianna, Jarvan, Corki (what else?) has easy ways of fulfilling a similar role which opens the way for more aggressive botlane summoner picks. It's not "fine". Having a zero-risk means to assess the enemy team's pre-fight positioning when their whole team may not be in vision has a huge impact on how you might initiate the fight, and how your team might position. Hitting a good CV and being able to reposition your entire team before a fight is as good or better than a Flash, which merely gives you a single chance for ONE person to reposition during the fight. CV is so much more powerful than simple brush control/objective control. Having a small-aoe brush-check/baron-check doesn't come close to accomplishing what it's capable of.
Yeah, you're right.
I think the question is whether a risky type of assessing the enemies position like a Jarvan flag / Pillar / Wall (including the risk that it's on CD for a few seconds in the major fight) is worth that additional summoner on the support which a) might win botlane in laning phase and b) will be more usefull once the actual fight goes down.
Honestly I'm tempted to try it out in some premades, my main issue right now is that from the stuff I listed the really usefull things are either on champs that aren't played much atm (Jarvan/Trundle) have insanely long CD (Anivia Wall) or might be too risky (short range) to actually use them for this purpose (Karthus Q / Cassiopeia / Corki)
Actually I think Jarvan flag and Anivia wall are the two strongest candidates for playing around with this. Any other ideas?
Edit: Actually if you wanna brainstorm some ideas that sound cool besides Jarvan (our AP mid sucks at Anivia =D) we'll try it out in about 4hours and I'll report back how badly we got stomped. =P ... Just the thought of Ignite/Another exhaust bot is so fucking scary that I wanna give it a shot. Also it opens up more cheesy lanes with two offensive summoners bot.
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United States47024 Posts
Even those abilities are positioning/geometry limited. I just don't think there's any way most of the champion abilities can compete with an ability that provides flying vision with unlimited cast range. Hawkshot and Destiny/Gate are really the only abilities that allow a similar amount of freedom.
Jarvan especially doesn't want to use his flag like that--if you use E to scout a positioning error, that removes your option to use E->Q to engage on that mistake.
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On December 16 2011 00:06 TheYango wrote:
Even those abilities are positioning/geometry limited. I just don't think there's any way most of the champion abilities can compete with an ability that provides flying vision with unlimited cast range. Hawkshot and Destiny/Gate are really the only abilities that allow a similar amount of freedom.
Ohhh, totally forgot about Hawkshot and TF. Fail.
Yeah, they can't compete with it - but if the increased presence botlane/in teamfights from the additional exhaust/ignite is enough to warrent that (atm I doubt it, but that issue is way too complex for me to dare theorycraft it)... it can work.
Speaking of which, I start seeing supports without flash and stuff like heal/CV. Personally I can see that working on erh... Soraka... and... Soraka. I doubt it's viable on like any other standard botlane support. For the nonstandard ones maybe GP can get away with it.
Does anyone disagree and can show me why no flash on supports in general is viable?
(I think I'm totally fascinated by the idea of a Flash/Ignite Tristana with a Exhaust/Ignite Alistar for maximum trollz. Huehue.)
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United States47024 Posts
Janna, Alistar, Sona, and Taric all get too much out of Flash to be able to afford replacing it. Flash->ult/Flash->stun out of any of them is extremely powerful.
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The combination of the jungle changes and cv nerfs made it a lot worse for keeping track of the jungle, but I never thought that was a great use since good warding prevents most ganks anyways. Just like in SC, it's better to have good map control than constantly scanning the opponent's army trying to keep track of it. It's really underrated as a combat spell though. It might not be as good in a mid lane 5v5 as heal, but for preventing jukes during ganks and skirmishes in the jungle it's extremely good.
Heal on mid lane is interesting, but since the opponent will almost always have ignite, it won't be nearly as effective in lane. It's probably worth trying still, trading some lane dominance for early teamfight utility.
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On December 16 2011 00:13 TheYango wrote:
Janna, Alistar, Sona, and Taric all get too much out of Flash to be able to afford replacing it. Flash->ult/Flash->stun out of any of them is extremely powerful.
I could see losing it on Sona...agreed with Taric/Alistar/Janna though, particularly with Alistar/Janna being able to position yourself behind the enemy champion is just too good to give up.
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The timing window your enemies have once CV is down is too big to make it actually reliable. In the end both teams will have to challenge each other's wards and CV can only help you set one up initially. After that you need to maintain position, protect your wards and rely on abilities which provide vision.
Before the nerf, the window was such that you could sometimes sneak something while CV is down, but only barely. Now you have like 20 seconds extra.
Janna and Alistar could probably play without Flash, too, but it severely limits their offensive capabilities.
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In solo queue I feel summoner spells are best when they can be used both offensively and defensively. This is why I prefer ghost flash on ap carries to the ignite flash seen most of the time, and teleport flash on top laners. Teleport can be used to save a tower, or teleport into a team fight. Arranged teams that will peel and protect carries allow the carry to have the liberty of taking purely offensive summoner spells, such as ignites. CV can be used offensively and defensively as we have seen in some cv baiting plays in the past. Heal can be used offensively in a 5v4 push or defensively to give somebody the extra hp they need to survive and get to safety.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 16 2011 00:19 spinesheath wrote:
The timing window your enemies have once CV is down is too big to make it actually reliable. In the end both teams will have to challenge each other's wards and CV can only help you set one up initially. After that you need to maintain position, protect your wards and rely on abilities which provide vision.
Before the nerf, the window was such that you could sometimes sneak something while CV is down, but only barely. Now you have like 20 seconds extra.
What timing window? There's an exploitable timing window to immediately rectifying or taking advantage of a positioning mistake that is potentially immediately game-winning/game-losing? It doesn't matter when CV is down--if saves/breaks the game for you ONCE in a game, it's done more than it has to. The only thing is that people can go entire games without firing off a single CV that's useful like that, which has more to do with people wasting CVs than it being a bad summoner spell.
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Just won a game that started 3v5 ^^
We got fb at a 2v1 mid... lol
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It seems the top teams have the kind of game sense to know what is going on when. Almost like they don't even need CV to understand it's time to deny/take dragon/baron or when a jungle invasion is going to occur, just by who was in which lane recently, good spawn timers (on both sides), proper use of wards, and planned initations. They have strong teamwork and trust each others judgement to make the most intelligent decision at every point in the game (this doesn't mean they always make the correct desicion just they trust each others judgement).
In solo queue people are often doing their own thing and at lower elo's the only person you can truly trust to make correct decisions is your self. I have initiated too many fights 1v2 as a tank because I believed my team was prepared to engage 3v2 only to see them start to run off to farm jungle minions as im in the middle of everybody about to use my ult, while it looks like I'm going into a fight that I should know better than to engage into. That's fine, we all make mistakes, and the real question is who's mistake was it? Was it my mistake for initiating and not seeing my team was disengaging, or was it my teams mistake for disengaging from a fight we easily could have won?
If it is the supports job to provide cc, and map control for the team, wouldn't the best set up be CV/flash and heal/exhaust? The support shouldn't be in a position where they would need to flash unless they're not warding properly, and the team gets initiated on from behind were the support is caught to go down first. I could see dropping CV entirely if riot didn't do anything about the ward directly on top of baron because it was impossible to kill. Now Baron baiting is much easier, but if a team is engaging as a 5 man deathball its going to be incredibly hard to defend in a baron fight anyway. Especially if everybody is carrying wards to immediately take vision of bushes at the moment the fight starts. I see how an arranged team can make use of not taking cv, but cv is going to be around in solo queue for a while because metagame shift is very slow in solo queue.
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Just did some math. Ahri's Q starts outdamaging her W (assuming back-and-forth hits on Q and 3 hits on W) thanks to true damage... from 25 resistance onward. Against a single target.
It's a level 5 for each skill, but they have the same base (assuming no reduction) from level 1, so Q must be better at all levels.
That true damage component really makes W pale ; damage might be better on W thanks to mpen marks and/or sorcs, assuming your opponent doesn't build mres, and against minions and jungle creeps since they don't have any (but I don't think you want to hit creeps with W...). Moreover, Q is AoE, and it's harder to put all 3 hits on a single target with W is there are minions or other enemy champs.
Even the AP scaling's better on Q with 25+ res (something like 0.58 against 0.57 at that value). There's something wrong with those numbers, W might be better in lane thanks to lower mana cost and cd, for example when you went to harass solotop, but damage wise there's no question.
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What is CV used for:
Jungle tracking: not possible anymore.
Providing vision to assist a kill: Still possible, but can also partly be achieved by aggressive warding.
Baron threats: The downtime is too long to make it reliable; you have to rely on wards, abilities and maintain a good position.
So of course CV still has its uses, but on the other hand, a different summoner spell lets you apply lots of pressure on bottom lane. An extra Exhaust/Ignite/Heal can easily turn the lane from "both lanes mostly afk farm" to "one lane heavily zones the other".
Can CV as it is now provide enough utility to rectify the weaker bot lane? Sure, sometimes it can. But in many cases, I say it can't.
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Don't need flash on Janna if you position well. Her ult range is huge, but people always want to run into melee range to use it which is a waste.
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On December 16 2011 00:55 Alaric wrote:
Just did some math. Ahri's Q starts outdamaging her W (assuming back-and-forth hits on Q and 3 hits on W) thanks to true damage... from 25 resistance onward. Against a single target.
It's a level 5 for each skill, but they have the same base (assuming no reduction) from level 1, so Q must be better at all levels.
That true damage component really makes W pale ; damage might be better on W thanks to mpen marks and/or sorcs, assuming your opponent doesn't build mres, and against minions and jungle creeps since they don't have any (but I don't think you want to hit creeps with W...). Moreover, Q is AoE, and it's harder to put all 3 hits on a single target with W is there are minions or other enemy champs.
Even the AP scaling's better on Q with 25+ res (something like 0.58 against 0.57 at that value). There's something wrong with those numbers, W might be better in lane thanks to lower mana cost and cd, for example when you went to harass solotop, but damage wise there's no question.
Her Q is also just more useful. No delay. Hits as many targets as there are in a line. More useful with her passive than W.
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On December 16 2011 00:54 Sabin010 wrote:
It seems the top teams have the kind of game sense to know what is going on when. Almost like they don't even need CV to understand it's time to deny/take dragon/baron or when a jungle invasion is going to occur, just by who was in which lane recently, good spawn timers (on both sides), proper use of wards, and planned initations. They have strong teamwork and trust each others judgement to make the most intelligent decision at every point in the game (this doesn't mean they always make the correct desicion just they trust each others judgement).
In solo queue people are often doing their own thing and at lower elo's the only person you can truly trust to make correct decisions is your self. I have initiated too many fights 1v2 as a tank because I believed my team was prepared to engage 3v2 only to see them start to run off to farm jungle minions as im in the middle of everybody about to use my ult, while it looks like I'm going into a fight that I should know better than to engage into. That's fine, we all make mistakes, and the real question is who's mistake was it? Was it my mistake for initiating and not seeing my team was disengaging, or was it my teams mistake for disengaging from a fight we easily could have won?
If it is the supports job to provide cc, and map control for the team, wouldn't the best set up be CV/flash and heal/exhaust? The support shouldn't be in a position where they would need to flash unless they're not warding properly, and the team gets initiated on from behind were the support is caught to go down first. I could see dropping CV entirely if riot didn't do anything about the ward directly on top of baron because it was impossible to kill. Now Baron baiting is much easier, but if a team is engaging as a 5 man deathball its going to be incredibly hard to defend in a baron fight anyway. Especially if everybody is carrying wards to immediately take vision of bushes at the moment the fight starts. I see how an arranged team can make use of not taking cv, but cv is going to be around in solo queue for a while because metagame shift is very slow in solo queue.
If you're the tank and you're job is to initiate, then your team running away is their fault. If it's your job to peel for your carry, then you don't need to engage. Figuring out which of the two should be happening is actually rather difficult. Sometimes you should be phasing out their carries, sometimes you should be initiating, sometimes you should be peeling.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 16 2011 01:00 spinesheath wrote:
Jungle tracking: not possible anymore.
Providing vision to assist a kill: Still possible, but can also partly be achieved by aggressive warding.
Baron threats: The downtime is too long to make it reliable; you have to rely on wards, abilities and maintain a good position.
I don't consider any of these the best use of CV.
Most fights do not begin with full vision of the opposing team when it's being initiated. You know when a fight is going to happen, but you do not know the exact positioning of all champions involved. CV allows you to potentially get complete unconditional vision of all the participants in a fight, allowing all 5 players on your team to adjust their positioning accordingly, and avoid virtually any positioning-based mishap if they assess this information properly. As a combat summoner, this is significantly stronger than ANY of the other combat summoners if all 5 players make use of this information together.
Backing away from a bad flank can save you from instantaneously losing a game. Jumping on a mis-positioned carry you didn't have vision of can instantly win you the game.
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Will the chalice and passive from Foxy be enoguh sustain to win vs most ap lanes? Maxing q first to get the most regen off the passive? For mid game get Rylai's and death cap?
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Sigh, I am so inconsistant when I play. I can have a great game, and then I am shit for the rest of the day.
I have a great game that we completely dominate the opponents, then I get 3-4 games that 2 or 3 of the lanes get completely shit on and we lose.
Does consistancy come from just playing a lot, or is there something else I can do to get more consistant?
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On December 15 2011 23:43 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:05 Cuddle wrote:
Im thinking of picking up Renekton, I had a lot of fun times with him on free week. Anyone care to tell me what his good and bad match ups are solo top? I've had some success with this champ. I feel your toughest match ups are going to be tanky guys with cc like singed, rammus. I havent run into a ww yet but that lane would problebly just turn into a farm fest once you get a spirit visage. Silences are a problem too, if you get silenced by garen before you can stun him its going to hurt. That match up comes down to who can get ahead first. Riven is similar to Garen its who ever disables who first. Irelia needs to be played carefully, as she will have a spot at level 3 when she can actually trade for more damage and out sustain you, but you should be able to dive her with jungle support at level 6 unless she did some gimmichy stuff like put 3 points into the stun, but if she did that you should have already killed her. He really doesn't lose too many lanes, and can scale well going into the mid game. GP shouldn't be a problem, unless he gets two parrrley crits from the 4% crit in his masterys. Nasus isn't really a problem. Haven't faced Udyr but I'd imagine he could be a problem. Soraka problebly beats you top lane because of her silence, as would anybody with ranged silences (kass, Lb) except fiddle cause you can just w him out of his drain then q him for a bunch of health. Haven't faced a jax, Lee Sin is Lee Sin, a pain in the ass that I am completely clueless on how to fight him. Renekton can really dominate most match ups, but the above are the toughest imo. just e in, auto attack, w, q, auto e out. Thats your bread and butter at level 3 and after.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
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EPT
