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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
On December 15 2011 20:33 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:26 TheYango wrote:On December 15 2011 20:20 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 19:56 TheYango wrote:
I'm more surprised that it's been ditched in tournament games than in solo queue. It's always been hit-or-miss in solo queue, but as I said before, I think in arranged play, it would still be playable if it had a 3 min CD and only gave vision for 1 second. Not a no-brainer, but still playable. At 70 seconds and still 5 second reveal, it should still be a no-brainer in arranged play.
I also think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for your support to carry Heal. I think it's great to HAVE Heal, but it feels wrong to put a summoner that gets significantly stronger with levels on the team member that will always end up the lowest level on your team. You can easily run heal on the AD and exhaust on the support. Usually this setup should even be stronger than the other way. But since people still don't really understand what exactly a support does, it might take a while until setups like this become mainstream. Why not, say, Ignite on bot lane and Heal on your mid AP? The AP typically ends up highest or 2nd highest level in the game (Ignite scales damage on levels as well, but not nearly as hard as the scaling on Heal), and the anti-heal is generally much more relevant when trying to make kills happen bottom than mid. Because ignite gets you kills mid where targets will survive a lot of situations if you don't have ignite.
Exactly. An AD carry can always just shoot you more to close out a kill. Whereas with an AP once you blow your cooldown if your opponent is super-low on health but not so low that your autoattacks can win they get a ~5 sec window (depending on your cooldowns) to get back to their tower.
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On December 15 2011 20:40 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:33 JackDino wrote:On December 15 2011 20:26 TheYango wrote:On December 15 2011 20:20 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 19:56 TheYango wrote:
I'm more surprised that it's been ditched in tournament games than in solo queue. It's always been hit-or-miss in solo queue, but as I said before, I think in arranged play, it would still be playable if it had a 3 min CD and only gave vision for 1 second. Not a no-brainer, but still playable. At 70 seconds and still 5 second reveal, it should still be a no-brainer in arranged play.
I also think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for your support to carry Heal. I think it's great to HAVE Heal, but it feels wrong to put a summoner that gets significantly stronger with levels on the team member that will always end up the lowest level on your team. You can easily run heal on the AD and exhaust on the support. Usually this setup should even be stronger than the other way. But since people still don't really understand what exactly a support does, it might take a while until setups like this become mainstream. Why not, say, Ignite on bot lane and Heal on your mid AP? The AP typically ends up highest or 2nd highest level in the game (Ignite scales damage on levels as well, but not nearly as hard as the scaling on Heal), and the anti-heal is generally much more relevant when trying to make kills happen bottom than mid. Because ignite gets you kills mid where targets will survive a lot of situations if you don't have ignite. Exactly. An AD carry can always just shoot you more to close out a kill. Whereas with an AP once you blow your cooldown if your opponent is super-low on health but not so low that your autoattacks can win they get a ~5 sec window (depending on your cooldowns) to get back to their tower.
This only matters if either you or your enemy misjudge your damage, both mid or bot lane.
Ignite actually helps a lot more for bot lane these days because people aren't used to it, while everyone expects any AP mid to have Ignite.
And 5 AD > 5 AP.
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On December 15 2011 18:53 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 18:05 Ryuu314 wrote:
Ahri's W is amazing, but it's pretty mediocre if you don't hit all 3 fox fires onto your target. It's pretty easy to fuck it up and miss 1~2 fox fires when you use it. Q definitely scales much harder into lategame tho. True damage means it's essentially doing double damage come lategame as most champs will have ~100 mres.
Q = less harass damage/more consistent
W = more harass damage/more inconsistent
E = weaker version of blitz hook on lower cd
R = fun! Chaox made her look broken OP if you lane her top and max W. Just walk near melee champs and zone them all day. It's hard to tell how strong she is cause her laning is really fucking powerful. Not sure if people just aren't used to it or if it needs to be nerfed but she usually comes out of lane phase ahead of her opponent and then it can snowball from there.
mid
I got zoned as swain vs her. Seems like an Oriana type just don't know about the actual burst. I won't be playing swain vs her again that's for sure.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 15 2011 20:33 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:26 TheYango wrote:On December 15 2011 20:20 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 19:56 TheYango wrote:
I'm more surprised that it's been ditched in tournament games than in solo queue. It's always been hit-or-miss in solo queue, but as I said before, I think in arranged play, it would still be playable if it had a 3 min CD and only gave vision for 1 second. Not a no-brainer, but still playable. At 70 seconds and still 5 second reveal, it should still be a no-brainer in arranged play.
I also think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for your support to carry Heal. I think it's great to HAVE Heal, but it feels wrong to put a summoner that gets significantly stronger with levels on the team member that will always end up the lowest level on your team. You can easily run heal on the AD and exhaust on the support. Usually this setup should even be stronger than the other way. But since people still don't really understand what exactly a support does, it might take a while until setups like this become mainstream. Why not, say, Ignite on bot lane and Heal on your mid AP? The AP typically ends up highest or 2nd highest level in the game (Ignite scales damage on levels as well, but not nearly as hard as the scaling on Heal), and the anti-heal is generally much more relevant when trying to make kills happen bottom than mid. Because ignite gets you kills mid where targets will survive a lot of situations if you don't have ignite.
If you're going to use that argument, then Heal saves your life mid where you would die bottom.
As spines said, those situations only happen when people misjudge their damage.
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On December 15 2011 19:50 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 19:46 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 09:00 overt wrote:
Kind of funny that no teams get CV anymore. It's not funny, it's expected. I CALLED IT. Right after I played a single game on the patch that nerfed CV. That is all. Have a nice day. It's expected because everything that gets nerfed is auto bad. CV is still a good summoner to have on your team for various reasons.
Basically every game I play where I or another has CV, I feel like CV is ALWAYS ON COOLDOWN whenever something suddenly happens that would warrant the CV, and I don't really get the feeling that CV is used much.
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If I wasnt so addicted to ignite on most champs i'd pick CV with them certainly. In teamfights with bushes near, when ganking running people to see if help's on the way for them, to allow safer movement, to check for that SS, god I love CV =)
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Heal 2gud. CV ok map hack but heal > CV
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United States47024 Posts
On December 15 2011 22:11 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 19:50 JackDino wrote:On December 15 2011 19:46 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 09:00 overt wrote:
Kind of funny that no teams get CV anymore. It's not funny, it's expected. I CALLED IT. Right after I played a single game on the patch that nerfed CV. That is all. Have a nice day. It's expected because everything that gets nerfed is auto bad. CV is still a good summoner to have on your team for various reasons. Basically every game I play where I or another has CV, I feel like CV is ALWAYS ON COOLDOWN whenever something suddenly happens that would warrant the CV, and I don't really get the feeling that CV is used much.
This is because people are spoiled by using CV haphazardly. People are used to pre-nerf CV where you can use it basically on CD to get a sense of where the enemy jungler is, and not like other summoners, where you save it for important situations. The equivalent would be someone just igniting you in lane on CD just for some random extra damage. Of course that means it's going to be on CD when you actually need it for the burst kill. Sure it does something, but that's not optimal use when compared to saving it for extra burst or as a counter-heal.
Instant, zero-risk, unconditional vision isn't any less game-changing than a jump, a movespeed boost, or extra burst damage + anti-heal. It is INSANELY powerful to have in an organized 5v5--as a one-off effect it's much more powerful than quite a few of the other commonly picked summoner spell effects when used properly, but comes at less than half their CD. But because people have been spoiled by a completely overpowered version that allowed you to spam it haphazardly, no one has learned how to save it and use it optimally.
The only downside of CV is that it's much easier to whiff CV and use it improperly. Situations where you have to flash/ignite/exhaust/heal/etc. are extremely obvious. You can still use them improperly, but even a new player is unlikely to completely whiff one of those summoners, whereas a new player would have no fucking clue how to use CV properly, even with its completely imba low CD.
EDIT: This feels like a year ago, when people didn't take CV all the time yet, and I said that CV should be mandatory on any support, period because of how stupidly strong low-CD unconditional vision is, and people were telling me that I was crazy and that they'd rather have Exhaust on their support than CV.
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England2662 Posts
Someone moaned at me until I took CV in a game yesterday. I didn't have any of the masteries for it and it's completely awful. The masteries make it a lot better but it was pretty funny revealing the map for 4 seconds every 70. I lost track of the jungler after his second camp. Considering with gp5 masteries and runes you can have 4 wards bot to start with and get silly numbers of wards from passive gold it's not really a loss for most lanes, you just got to have wards.
I'm waiting on my dodge refund so that I can buy ahri. She looks like she'll be really silly. I was thinking she'd be best top lane because she would just destroy any melee bruiser, does that work in practice?
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On December 15 2011 22:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 22:11 sylverfyre wrote:On December 15 2011 19:50 JackDino wrote:On December 15 2011 19:46 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 09:00 overt wrote:
Kind of funny that no teams get CV anymore. It's not funny, it's expected. I CALLED IT. Right after I played a single game on the patch that nerfed CV. That is all. Have a nice day. It's expected because everything that gets nerfed is auto bad. CV is still a good summoner to have on your team for various reasons. Basically every game I play where I or another has CV, I feel like CV is ALWAYS ON COOLDOWN whenever something suddenly happens that would warrant the CV, and I don't really get the feeling that CV is used much. This is because people are spoiled by using CV haphazardly. People are used to pre-nerf CV where you can use it basically on CD to get a sense of where the enemy jungler is, and not like other summoners, where you save it for important situations. The equivalent would be someone just igniting you in lane on CD just for some random extra damage. Of course that means it's going to be on CD when you actually need it for the burst kill. Sure it does something, but that's not optimal use when compared to saving it for extra burst or as a counter-heal. Instant, zero-risk, unconditional vision isn't any less game-changing than a jump, a movespeed boost, or extra burst damage + anti-heal. It is INSANELY powerful to have in an organized 5v5--as a one-off effect it's much more powerful than quite a few of the other commonly picked summoner spell effects when used properly, but comes at less than half their CD. But because people have been spoiled by a completely overpowered version that allowed you to spam it haphazardly, no one has learned how to save it and use it optimally. The only downside of CV is that it's much easier to whiff CV and use it improperly. Situations where you have to flash/ignite/exhaust/heal/etc. You can still use them improperly, but even a new player is unlikely to completely whiff one of those summoners, whereas a new player would have no fucking clue how to use CV properly, even with its completely imba low CD. EDIT: This feels like a year ago, when people didn't take CV all the time yet, and I said that CV should be mandatory on any support, period because of how stupidly strong low-CD unconditional vision is, and people were telling me that I was crazy and that they'd rather have Exhaust on their support than CV.
Currently it is often better to take a summoner other than CV and buy more wards instead. Obviously you have to keep the issue of checking brushes etc in mind.
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On December 15 2011 16:05 Cuddle wrote:
Im thinking of picking up Renekton, I had a lot of fun times with him on free week. Anyone care to tell me what his good and bad match ups are solo top?
I've had some success with this champ. I feel your toughest match ups are going to be tanky guys with cc like singed, rammus. I havent run into a ww yet but that lane would problebly just turn into a farm fest once you get a spirit visage. Silences are a problem too, if you get silenced by garen before you can stun him its going to hurt. That match up comes down to who can get ahead first. Riven is similar to Garen its who ever disables who first.
Irelia needs to be played carefully, as she will have a spot at level 3 when she can actually trade for more damage and out sustain you, but you should be able to dive her with jungle support at level 6 unless she did some gimmichy stuff like put 3 points into the stun, but if she did that you should have already killed her. He really doesn't lose too many lanes, and can scale well going into the mid game.
GP shouldn't be a problem, unless he gets two parrrley crits from the 4% crit in his masterys. Nasus isn't really a problem. Haven't faced Udyr but I'd imagine he could be a problem. Soraka problebly beats you top lane because of her silence, as would anybody with ranged silences (kass, Lb) except fiddle cause you can just w him out of his drain then q him for a bunch of health. Haven't faced a jax, Lee Sin is Lee Sin, a pain in the ass that I am completely clueless on how to fight him.
Renekton can really dominate most match ups, but the above are the toughest imo. just e in, auto attack, w, q, auto e out. Thats your bread and butter at level 3 and after.
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On December 15 2011 23:37 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 22:48 TheYango wrote:On December 15 2011 22:11 sylverfyre wrote:On December 15 2011 19:50 JackDino wrote:On December 15 2011 19:46 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 09:00 overt wrote:
Kind of funny that no teams get CV anymore. It's not funny, it's expected. I CALLED IT. Right after I played a single game on the patch that nerfed CV. That is all. Have a nice day. It's expected because everything that gets nerfed is auto bad. CV is still a good summoner to have on your team for various reasons. Basically every game I play where I or another has CV, I feel like CV is ALWAYS ON COOLDOWN whenever something suddenly happens that would warrant the CV, and I don't really get the feeling that CV is used much. This is because people are spoiled by using CV haphazardly. People are used to pre-nerf CV where you can use it basically on CD to get a sense of where the enemy jungler is, and not like other summoners, where you save it for important situations. The equivalent would be someone just igniting you in lane on CD just for some random extra damage. Of course that means it's going to be on CD when you actually need it for the burst kill. Sure it does something, but that's not optimal use when compared to saving it for extra burst or as a counter-heal. Instant, zero-risk, unconditional vision isn't any less game-changing than a jump, a movespeed boost, or extra burst damage + anti-heal. It is INSANELY powerful to have in an organized 5v5--as a one-off effect it's much more powerful than quite a few of the other commonly picked summoner spell effects when used properly, but comes at less than half their CD. But because people have been spoiled by a completely overpowered version that allowed you to spam it haphazardly, no one has learned how to save it and use it optimally. The only downside of CV is that it's much easier to whiff CV and use it improperly. Situations where you have to flash/ignite/exhaust/heal/etc. You can still use them improperly, but even a new player is unlikely to completely whiff one of those summoners, whereas a new player would have no fucking clue how to use CV properly, even with its completely imba low CD. EDIT: This feels like a year ago, when people didn't take CV all the time yet, and I said that CV should be mandatory on any support, period because of how stupidly strong low-CD unconditional vision is, and people were telling me that I was crazy and that they'd rather have Exhaust on their support than CV. Currently it is often better to take a summoner other than CV and buy more wards instead. Obviously you have to keep the issue of checking brushes etc in mind.
I really don't have any experience with non-cv supports past hitting 30, but it would seem being able to threaten baron by going mia and not having a real answer would far outweigh the benefit of a single additional summoner. Being able to track jungler early on is awful nice too, but I'm not used to new jungle either.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 15 2011 23:37 spinesheath wrote:
Currently it is often better to take a summoner other than CV and buy more wards instead. Obviously you have to keep the issue of checking brushes etc in mind.
The same argument was brought up last time. I can't see how this remains mid-late game with proper oracle's and counterwarding.
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On December 15 2011 22:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 22:11 sylverfyre wrote:On December 15 2011 19:50 JackDino wrote:On December 15 2011 19:46 spinesheath wrote:On December 15 2011 09:00 overt wrote:
Kind of funny that no teams get CV anymore. It's not funny, it's expected. I CALLED IT. Right after I played a single game on the patch that nerfed CV. That is all. Have a nice day. It's expected because everything that gets nerfed is auto bad. CV is still a good summoner to have on your team for various reasons. Basically every game I play where I or another has CV, I feel like CV is ALWAYS ON COOLDOWN whenever something suddenly happens that would warrant the CV, and I don't really get the feeling that CV is used much. This is because people are spoiled by using CV haphazardly. People are used to pre-nerf CV where you can use it basically on CD to get a sense of where the enemy jungler is, and not like other summoners, where you save it for important situations. The equivalent would be someone just igniting you in lane on CD just for some random extra damage. Of course that means it's going to be on CD when you actually need it for the burst kill. Sure it does something, but that's not optimal use when compared to saving it for extra burst or as a counter-heal. Instant, zero-risk, unconditional vision isn't any less game-changing than a jump, a movespeed boost, or extra burst damage + anti-heal. It is INSANELY powerful to have in an organized 5v5--as a one-off effect it's much more powerful than quite a few of the other commonly picked summoner spell effects when used properly, but comes at less than half their CD. But because people have been spoiled by a completely overpowered version that allowed you to spam it haphazardly, no one has learned how to save it and use it optimally. The only downside of CV is that it's much easier to whiff CV and use it improperly. Situations where you have to flash/ignite/exhaust/heal/etc. You can still use them improperly, but even a new player is unlikely to completely whiff one of those summoners, whereas a new player would have no fucking clue how to use CV properly, even with its completely imba low CD. EDIT: This feels like a year ago, when people didn't take CV all the time yet, and I said that CV should be mandatory on any support, period because of how stupidly strong low-CD unconditional vision is, and people were telling me that I was crazy and that they'd rather have Exhaust on their support than CV.
I have to say that while I'm not sure if this was intented by Riot or not, but the combination of the new jungle and the new CV feels way better gameplay wise than the stuff before.
-Before: Always CV jungle, never die unless you're really bad at CVing.
-After: CV jungle if you're lucky and/or know precise timings.
From a jungler perspective I catch more people top/mid out of position before their first back since a) my timing is slightly quicker and b) I don't get CV'd 24/7.
From a top lane perspective those ganks are way more dangerous. In solo Q I feel most games are currently decided by top laners playing like pre-patches when on the left side. Those early ganks are so much more scary than before imo.
From a support perspective I feel that warding for top/mid at lvl 1 is way more rewarding than before.
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On December 15 2011 23:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 23:37 spinesheath wrote:
Currently it is often better to take a summoner other than CV and buy more wards instead. Obviously you have to keep the issue of checking brushes etc in mind. The same argument was brought up last time. I can't see how this remains mid-late game with proper oracle's and counterwarding.
Since CV got nerfed for its WHERE IS DAT JUNGLE use but is still the same good ol' terran scan for mid/lategame (imo, give CV true vision for a while and see how THAT goes. Loads of fun incoming.) - that basicly means that if you have a consistent way of checking for those Barons/Brushes I think rolling without CV is fine.
Stuff like Orianna, Jarvan, Corki (what else?) has easy ways of fulfilling a similar role which opens the way for more aggressive botlane summoner picks.
Edit: Urgot, Trundle, Anivia, Kog Maw, Karthus, Lee
And to some extent: Caitlyn/Nidalee
(Funny how most of those aren't "top picks" atm. =D)
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United States47024 Posts
On December 15 2011 23:51 r.Evo wrote:
Since CV got nerfed for its WHERE IS DAT JUNGLE use but is still the same good ol' terran scan for mid/lategame (imo, give CV true vision for a while and see how THAT goes. Loads of fun incoming.) - that basicly means that if you have a consistent way of checking for those Barons/Brushes I think rolling without CV is fine.
Stuff like Orianna, Jarvan, Corki (what else?) has easy ways of fulfilling a similar role which opens the way for more aggressive botlane summoner picks.
It's not "fine". Having a zero-risk means to assess the enemy team's pre-fight positioning when their whole team may not be in vision has a huge impact on how you might initiate the fight, and how your team might position. Hitting a good CV and being able to reposition your entire team before a fight, or exploit a vulnerability in enemy positioning that you might not have known about, is as good or better than a Flash, which merely gives you a single chance for ONE person to reposition during the fight.
Again, in solo queue this is hit-or-miss because it's basically impossible for an uncoordinated team to play properly with the new information correctly. But in an arranged 5s setting, it's arguably the single strongest summoner spell effect in the game, while also having one of the shortest cooldowns.
CV is so much more powerful than simple brush control/objective control. Having a small-aoe brush-check/baron-check doesn't come close to accomplishing what it's capable of.
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Wow,this ahri bitch....She is so annoying to gank,and past lvl 6 good luck with landing a skill shot on her.
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On December 15 2011 23:57 TheKefka wrote:
Wow,this Foxy Lady....She is so annoying to gank,and past lvl 6 good luck with landing a skill shot on her.
Fixed that for you.
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EPT
