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[Patch 1.0.0.131: Ahri] General Discussion - Page 198

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Want to rage about your latest loss?
Use the QQ thread.
If you whine in GD, you'll get warned.

=====

+ Show Spoiler +
If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.

- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST

I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name.

- Neo 7:07 KST
Parnage
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States7414 Posts
December 29 2011 03:58 GMT
#3941
I fear trying to master Lee Sin, as I know if I do it'll be amazing but I know that his skill cap is fairly intensive. I just don't think I can handle that kind of blind monk awesomeness.
-orb- Fan. Live the Nal_rA dream. || Yordles are cool.
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
December 29 2011 04:02 GMT
#3942
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
December 29 2011 04:07 GMT
#3943
On December 29 2011 13:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?

What were you playing and against what?
Also: Discussion about Vayne's W.

any opinions?
currently rooting for myself.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
December 29 2011 04:14 GMT
#3944
On December 29 2011 12:48 57 Corvette wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 12:46 Treadmill wrote:
On December 29 2011 12:11 Craton wrote:
I imagine spell vamp quints vs movespeed to be rather situational on Ryze. He already gets tons of vamp from his normal build of wota + ult, so it'd primarily be best early on, while move speed gets better and better.

what I'm wondering is if you can get away with not building WotA with them. Ryze always seems so constrained in his item choices and it would be nice to be able to have some options.

I think its the WotA's Aura that gives allies Spell vamp as well that makes it better than the quints. If you wanted to be a selfish bastard and keep all the stats to yourself, I suppose you can replace the WotA with spellvamp quints, but no one likes selfish people

It's better than the quints because it gives 4 times the amount...
twitch.tv/cratonz
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
December 29 2011 04:15 GMT
#3945
On December 29 2011 13:07 Shiv. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 13:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?

What were you playing and against what?
Also: Discussion about Vayne's W.

any opinions?

I 100% agree. All the "vayne true damage OP" nonsense is just tiring.

He has a very good point about how she lacks basically anything other than straight single target damage, though he does underplay a.her hard cc (from condemn) b. her burst (ult/tumble/condemn/auto to proc tumble/auto to proc w) and c. her mobility (from q and her passive) which give her something other than just sustained autoattack damage. Her lack of wave-clearing though is a really big deal.
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
December 29 2011 04:18 GMT
#3946
noone i guess :|
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 04:29:09
December 29 2011 04:23 GMT
#3947
Yes Vayne's W doesn't make up a huge portion of her damage. Neither does any other steroid in the game

The thing about Vayne's W is that if you math out the gold value in terms of equivalent real AD, it has significantly higher gold value than even activatable steroids, such as Tristana's W, even if you account for the unreliability of having to hit 3 consecutive times.

To illustrate:
Consider an average tanky target HP lategame with 3000 HP and 150 armor. From a practical standpoint, this 150 armor is only actually worth about 70 armor, after ArPen marks and LW/10% ArPen mastery. This is a 41% damage reduction, which means that true damage is worth 70% more than plain AD.

The 8% max HP component of Vayne's W does 240 true damage to that 3k HP dude. Coupled with the 60 base damage, this is 300 damage, or 100 true damage per attack, which is worth the equivalent of 170 normal AD. 170 normal AD is worth 5610 gold (based on BF Sword which is 1650 gold for 50 AD), which is worth more than TWICE as much as the gold value of Tristana's Q (based on Recurve Bow, which is 40% aspd for 1050 gold). Put a different way, even if you only get to proc Vayne's W once every 7 attacks, it's still worth more gold in steroid value than Tristana's Q, and Tristana's Q isn't always on.

It's probably not on it's own what makes her strong, but when one of your skills is significantly stronger than all comparable skills on similar champions, it makes making your kit well rounded somewhat awkward.
Moderator
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
December 29 2011 04:30 GMT
#3948
vayne's strong because of the invisible in her kit. being able to reposition yourself freely without taking damage as soon as anyone looks at you is beyond broken if you have good reflexes. then she also has a knockback and yea...pretty much just impossible to focus her without her being really bad/dumb.
Brees on in
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
December 29 2011 04:30 GMT
#3949
Anyone else getting massive lag on NA?
twitch.tv/cratonz
Soloside
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1238 Posts
December 29 2011 04:31 GMT
#3950
On December 29 2011 13:15 Treadmill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 13:07 Shiv. wrote:
On December 29 2011 13:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?

What were you playing and against what?
Also: Discussion about Vayne's W.

any opinions?

I 100% agree. All the "vayne true damage OP" nonsense is just tiring.

He has a very good point about how she lacks basically anything other than straight single target damage, though he does underplay a.her hard cc (from condemn) b. her burst (ult/tumble/condemn/auto to proc tumble/auto to proc w) and c. her mobility (from q and her passive) which give her something other than just sustained autoattack damage. Her lack of wave-clearing though is a really big deal.


not being able to exhaust reduce the true damage really sucks at dueling pre-6 in bot lane.

just saying.
LoL: Taylor Swift | King Kayle
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 04:39:33
December 29 2011 04:39 GMT
#3951
On December 29 2011 13:07 Shiv. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 13:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?

What were you playing and against what?
Also: Discussion about Vayne's W.

any opinions?


Played as Kennen vs Veigar

Didn't really feel like risking FB against him so I just decided to see how good at farming he was. Turns out I was better and just decided to farm unless he came after me.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
December 29 2011 04:41 GMT
#3952
On December 29 2011 13:31 Soloside wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 13:15 Treadmill wrote:
On December 29 2011 13:07 Shiv. wrote:
On December 29 2011 13:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?

What were you playing and against what?
Also: Discussion about Vayne's W.

any opinions?

I 100% agree. All the "vayne true damage OP" nonsense is just tiring.

He has a very good point about how she lacks basically anything other than straight single target damage, though he does underplay a.her hard cc (from condemn) b. her burst (ult/tumble/condemn/auto to proc tumble/auto to proc w) and c. her mobility (from q and her passive) which give her something other than just sustained autoattack damage. Her lack of wave-clearing though is a really big deal.


not being able to exhaust reduce the true damage really sucks at dueling pre-6 in bot lane.

just saying.

Not being able to gank Ez easy once you blow his flash is annoying. Not being able to camp the brush against Caitlyn is annoying. Getting stunned from the other side of the map by ashe is annoying. Getting poked from beyond your ability to return damage by Kog or Corki is annoying. Not being able ot harass sivir with spells without just restoring her mana is annoying. All the characters have strengths.

You can't take a single part of a characters kit and compare it to a single part of another characters kit and have any meaningful comment on balance. That'd be like saying, "hey, one zealot will always beat one zergling, clearly starcraft is broken horribly".
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
December 29 2011 04:49 GMT
#3953
On December 29 2011 13:31 Soloside wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 13:15 Treadmill wrote:
On December 29 2011 13:07 Shiv. wrote:
On December 29 2011 13:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?

What were you playing and against what?
Also: Discussion about Vayne's W.

any opinions?

I 100% agree. All the "vayne true damage OP" nonsense is just tiring.

He has a very good point about how she lacks basically anything other than straight single target damage, though he does underplay a.her hard cc (from condemn) b. her burst (ult/tumble/condemn/auto to proc tumble/auto to proc w) and c. her mobility (from q and her passive) which give her something other than just sustained autoattack damage. Her lack of wave-clearing though is a really big deal.


not being able to exhaust reduce the true damage really sucks at dueling pre-6 in bot lane.

just saying.

That's one of her strengths. She has low range, but when she gets in and is not CCd, she is hard to stop. Just pick cait and dominate her with range, and when she jumps you, run (or E).
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
December 29 2011 04:55 GMT
#3954
I'm a bit behind on the discussion, but I honestly don't think buying Rune Pages is that useful. I tend to play the same role, so those champions (for example, most ranged AD champs) tend to have the same or similar rune pages. And since I really only play Jungle, Ranged AD, or Top, I have those 3 pages and only switch them if I know I'll be playing mid or support or something when playing with friends.

It seems that having more than one seems to be more of a convenience thing than anything, just convenient to not have to switch runes between matches.

Just me, maybe. If you play with a group of people, you're generally knowing who you're going to play going into the match and can switch runes if need be.
It's your boy Guzma!
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
December 29 2011 05:07 GMT
#3955
On December 29 2011 13:23 TheYango wrote:
Yes Vayne's W doesn't make up a huge portion of her damage. Neither does any other steroid in the game

The thing about Vayne's W is that if you math out the gold value in terms of equivalent real AD, it has significantly higher gold value than even activatable steroids, such as Tristana's W, even if you account for the unreliability of having to hit 3 consecutive times.

To illustrate:
Consider an average tanky target HP lategame with 3000 HP and 150 armor. From a practical standpoint, this 150 armor is only actually worth about 70 armor, after ArPen marks and LW/10% ArPen mastery. This is a 41% damage reduction, which means that true damage is worth 70% more than plain AD.

The 8% max HP component of Vayne's W does 240 true damage to that 3k HP dude. Coupled with the 60 base damage, this is 300 damage, or 100 true damage per attack, which is worth the equivalent of 170 normal AD. 170 normal AD is worth 5610 gold (based on BF Sword which is 1650 gold for 50 AD), which is worth more than TWICE as much as the gold value of Tristana's Q (based on Recurve Bow, which is 40% aspd for 1050 gold). Put a different way, even if you only get to proc Vayne's W once every 7 attacks, it's still worth more gold in steroid value than Tristana's Q, and Tristana's Q isn't always on.

It's probably not on it's own what makes her strong, but when one of your skills is significantly stronger than all comparable skills on similar champions, it makes making your kit well rounded somewhat awkward.


how does corki's passive compare to vayne's w? i was under the impression that it was significantly better, and he has a reposition skill as well, so there must be something in either knockback or ult that makes her significantly better.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
December 29 2011 05:08 GMT
#3956
You need 5-6 to be versatile enough for ranked without being *that guy* who can only play 1-2 things. More than that is more of a convenience so you can really fine tune your matchups (e.g. stacking armor).
twitch.tv/cratonz
unichan
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States4223 Posts
December 29 2011 05:11 GMT
#3957
On December 29 2011 13:07 Shiv. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 13:02 Cloud9157 wrote:
109 CS at 12 minutes.

Pretty good anyone?

What were you playing and against what?
Also: Discussion about Vayne's W.

any opinions?

they spelled tryndamere wrong, lol
:)
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
December 29 2011 05:13 GMT
#3958
Posted at: 8:03pm
We will performing emergency network maintenance on our North America login, champion selection, and matchmaking services throughout this evening. A short outage could occur. Players in game should not see game play affected but may have to re-login at end of game.

Holiday season so crippling to being able to play without lag.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
December 29 2011 05:14 GMT
#3959
Viktor tonight/early tomorrow they said!
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
Raynian
Profile Joined December 2010
United States50 Posts
December 29 2011 05:21 GMT
#3960
On December 29 2011 14:07 barbsq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 13:23 TheYango wrote:
Yes Vayne's W doesn't make up a huge portion of her damage. Neither does any other steroid in the game

The thing about Vayne's W is that if you math out the gold value in terms of equivalent real AD, it has significantly higher gold value than even activatable steroids, such as Tristana's W, even if you account for the unreliability of having to hit 3 consecutive times.

To illustrate:
Consider an average tanky target HP lategame with 3000 HP and 150 armor. From a practical standpoint, this 150 armor is only actually worth about 70 armor, after ArPen marks and LW/10% ArPen mastery. This is a 41% damage reduction, which means that true damage is worth 70% more than plain AD.

The 8% max HP component of Vayne's W does 240 true damage to that 3k HP dude. Coupled with the 60 base damage, this is 300 damage, or 100 true damage per attack, which is worth the equivalent of 170 normal AD. 170 normal AD is worth 5610 gold (based on BF Sword which is 1650 gold for 50 AD), which is worth more than TWICE as much as the gold value of Tristana's Q (based on Recurve Bow, which is 40% aspd for 1050 gold). Put a different way, even if you only get to proc Vayne's W once every 7 attacks, it's still worth more gold in steroid value than Tristana's Q, and Tristana's Q isn't always on.

It's probably not on it's own what makes her strong, but when one of your skills is significantly stronger than all comparable skills on similar champions, it makes making your kit well rounded somewhat awkward.


how does corki's passive compare to vayne's w? i was under the impression that it was significantly better, and he has a reposition skill as well, so there must be something in either knockback or ult that makes her significantly better.


Even with a pure AD build on Corki, you're only going to be looking at around 30-35 true damage per hit, and there's no massive burst on it. It's there, it's somewhat significant, but it's not the Vayne level of dealing ~60-75 true damage per hit overall, lategame. And yeah, Corki's escape is amazing, but it's on a 20-12 second cooldown, instead of Vayne's 6-2 second cooldown that comes with free stealth and +60% damage on the next attack. Also consider that Corki -has- to build some form of mana, whether from Trifroce, manamune, or whatever, and often survivability as well. Vayne can just build pure DPS, rely on her absurd kit to keep her alive, and pump out damage faster than any other carry in the game.
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