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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 06 2011 07:45 shinarit wrote:
Ok, where can i report bugs? I played Sona today, we attacked an inhib, i had power chord up, and it just didnt want to go away. I shot it at least 6 times, and i still had it after the inhib went down.
I don't know the proper terminology but that's intended. TF pick-a-cards won't hit inhibs either. Lots, if not all, auto attack modifiers won't hit inhibs even though they'll hit towers.
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I think the same is true for the nexus as well.
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On December 06 2011 07:45 shinarit wrote:
Ok, where can i report bugs? I played Sona today, we attacked an inhib, i had power chord up, and it just didnt want to go away. I shot it at least 6 times, and i still had it after the inhib went down.
That's possibly working as intended. I know you can stack up Caitlyn's passive attacking structures, but it won't proc until you shoot something else.
Edit: Ninja'd
Edit 2: Twice.
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No, i mean i really shot power chords. At least in graphical and sound effect, i didnt check my damage, it went down too fast.
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Huh, random thought. What if they changed wards so that you couldnt drop a ward into brush? Would make ganking bot lane slightly more interesting.
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On December 06 2011 06:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:41 Seuss wrote:On December 06 2011 05:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:With those numbers it just seems funny that people are whining so much about the new jungle. It definitely made bad junglers worse though which people probably equated to the patch instead of themselves. You have to put those numbers in context. For example, the gold/exp chart is misleading because idle time is different for pre-revamp and post revamp. A camp that has been idle for 40 seconds post-revamp has literally just spawned pre-revamp. If you retool the chart in that context it looks like this. 0:40: 120xp/31g | 86xp/32g | 89exp/32g 1:00: 100xp/26g | 72xp/27g | 74xp/27g 2:00: 71xp/18g | 48xp/18g | 49xp/18g 3:00: 52xp/13g | 36xp/13g | 42xp/14g (half bank) 4:00: 41xp/11g | 29xp/11g | 37xp/15g (full bank) This is basically the problem with the new jungle in a nutshell. If you can afk farm the new jungle without downtime you'll keep up on levels and gold just fine (in fact, gaining more of both than before). However, any ganking or idle time whatsoever immediately costs you and puts you significantly behind the old jungle. That's why people are complaining. Unless the meta shifts to where nobody expects ganks from their jungler you're going to be compelled to exit the jungle and cost yourself exp and gold, and often. Which is the entire problem in the first place. Everybody is trying to use the same strategies in the new jungle when they should be looking for completely new strategies and heaven forbid there is an opportunity cost for ganking now. In the old jungle you'd either gank or go back because there was literally nothing else you could do besides counter jungling. That changing isn't a bad thing in my opinion.
There was an opportunity cost for ganking before. Revealing your position to the enemy jungler gave them vital information regarding what you had cleared, were likely to clear next and how they could prepare to counter you. Moreover, unless you rigidly cleared all your camps before ganking you could have camps waiting to be cleared, or that would spawn while you were ganking and thus be vulnerable to counter-jungling. The difference is the cost wasn't so punitive unless the enemy jungler made it so, or if you were forced to gank at inopportune times/places by a bad team.
The problem now is that the punitive nature of being counter-jungled while you gank is essentially built in without the enemy jungler having to do anything.
I'd argue that the "downtime" in the old jungle was one of its best features:
1) It was the sole forgiving point for new players in the old the jungle. The gap meant that players who were new/slow at clearing the jungle had significant leeway time to work with. Being slower than the experts wasn't as big a deal, nor was using easier junglers like Warwick.
2) It forced the question "what do I do now?" That taught new junglers that farming wasn't all there was to jungling. Sure, some players answered the question by saying "there's nothing I can do", but that's just a step in the learning process. First you just back, heal and buy. Next you learn you can gank and get kills. Then you start learning more tricky ganks, the basics of counter-jungling and start to see that it's a good idea to stop clearing for a moment to gank sooner. Eventually as you learn to jungle the downtime becomes insufficient for everything you want to do because you have so many ganking vectors, counter-jungle options and places you can be useful that you wish there were two of you.
3) It provided the basis for counter-jungling as it was in the old jungle. Not a gimmicky "steal a big creep" counter-jungle, but a dynamic battle between junglers where controlling information was as critical as ganking. The new jungle simply can't compare.
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On December 06 2011 07:51 shinarit wrote:
No, i mean i really shot power chords. At least in graphical and sound effect, i didnt check my damage, it went down too fast.
I've had that. I'm pretty sure it does normal damage, but it's amusing while it works.
On December 06 2011 07:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
Dayum. Gman Bob is 2k now? When did that happen?
Few weeks ago or so.
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On December 06 2011 07:55 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 06 2011 06:41 Seuss wrote:On December 06 2011 05:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:With those numbers it just seems funny that people are whining so much about the new jungle. It definitely made bad junglers worse though which people probably equated to the patch instead of themselves. You have to put those numbers in context. For example, the gold/exp chart is misleading because idle time is different for pre-revamp and post revamp. A camp that has been idle for 40 seconds post-revamp has literally just spawned pre-revamp. If you retool the chart in that context it looks like this. 0:40: 120xp/31g | 86xp/32g | 89exp/32g 1:00: 100xp/26g | 72xp/27g | 74xp/27g 2:00: 71xp/18g | 48xp/18g | 49xp/18g 3:00: 52xp/13g | 36xp/13g | 42xp/14g (half bank) 4:00: 41xp/11g | 29xp/11g | 37xp/15g (full bank) This is basically the problem with the new jungle in a nutshell. If you can afk farm the new jungle without downtime you'll keep up on levels and gold just fine (in fact, gaining more of both than before). However, any ganking or idle time whatsoever immediately costs you and puts you significantly behind the old jungle. That's why people are complaining. Unless the meta shifts to where nobody expects ganks from their jungler you're going to be compelled to exit the jungle and cost yourself exp and gold, and often. Which is the entire problem in the first place. Everybody is trying to use the same strategies in the new jungle when they should be looking for completely new strategies and heaven forbid there is an opportunity cost for ganking now. In the old jungle you'd either gank or go back because there was literally nothing else you could do besides counter jungling. That changing isn't a bad thing in my opinion. There was an opportunity cost for ganking before. Revealing your position to the enemy jungler gave them vital information regarding what you had cleared, were likely to clear next and how they could prepare to counter you. Moreover, unless you rigidly cleared all your camps before ganking you could have camps waiting to be cleared, or that would spawn while you were ganking and thus be vulnerable to counter-jungling. The difference is the cost wasn't so punitive unless the enemy jungler made it so, or if you were forced to gank at inopportune times/places by a bad team. The problem now is that the punitive nature of being counter-jungled while you gank is essentially built in without the enemy jungler having to do anything. I'd argue that the "downtime" in the old jungle was one of its best features: 1) It was the sole forgiving point for new players in the old the jungle. The gap meant that players who were new/slow at clearing the jungle had significant leeway time to work with. Being slower than the experts wasn't as big a deal, nor was using easier junglers like Warwick. 2) It forced the question "what do I do now?" That taught new junglers that farming wasn't all there was to jungling. Sure, some players answered the question by saying "there's nothing I can do", but that's just a step in the learning process. First you just back, heal and buy. Next you learn you can gank and get kills. Then you start learning more tricky ganks, the basics of counter-jungling and start to see that it's a good idea to stop clearing for a moment to gank sooner. Eventually as you learn to jungle the downtime becomes insufficient for everything you want to do because you have so many ganking vectors, counter-jungle options and places you can be useful that you wish there were two of you. 3) It provided the basis for counter-jungling as it was in the old jungle. Not a gimmicky "steal a big creep" counter-jungle, but a dynamic battle between junglers where controlling information was as critical as ganking. The new jungle simple can't compare.
I couldn't agree with this more. The knowledge of counter-jungling added so much depth to jungling and it's not even a necessary part for new junglers to know. Seems like they just made it more shallow 
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On December 06 2011 07:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
Huh, random thought. What if they changed wards so that you couldnt drop a ward into brush? Would make ganking bot lane slightly more interesting.
People would probably ward in less ideal places (no-brush patch in the middle / near the enemy turret), you'd just have to be more map aware to notice the junglers.
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I'm still sad they changed the CV/cleared jungle creeps interaction so that it reset the minimap when you cvd a cleared creep camp. Took all the skill out of predicting jungle paths.
And Lanz- Im not sure thats a bad thing. Im trying to think of a reason why wards need to be in bushes, and I just cant think of any.
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You could still cover all paths without needing to ward in a bush. You'd have a little less notice, but it's still very much doable. The bigger issue would be baron (blue team already has favorable positioning and now they can't be effectively warded against, while they could fully ward against purple). There's a similar reversed situation at dragon, but not near as punishing.
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What do you mean by "why wards need to be in bushes"? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.
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On December 06 2011 07:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
Huh, random thought. What if they changed wards so that you couldnt drop a ward into brush? Would make ganking bot lane slightly more interesting.
riot hire this man
DESIGN GENIUS
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On December 06 2011 08:03 Lanzoma wrote:
What do you mean by "why wards need to be in bushes"? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.
I think its if you put a ward right outside the bush, you still can see when the dude is coming, and geez well if he walked into that bush and didn't walk out yet, I can say that he's probably in that bush. -.- so you don't actually lose much at all
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On December 06 2011 08:03 Lanzoma wrote:
What do you mean by "why wards need to be in bushes"? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.
He wants to nerf wards in a fairly arbitrary way that doesn't actually help with his perceived problem of ganking lanes (notably bot) being too hard.
Both sides of mid can ward w/o needing bushes and one side of bot/top also ward without needing a bush. The only two bushes that ever need to be warded in lane phase are the tribushes, which are often not warded anyway in favor of the sort of "cheap" alternative of double covering both paths.
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On December 06 2011 08:03 Lanzoma wrote:
What do you mean by "why wards need to be in bushes"? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.
Im trying to think about the downside of changing it so that you couldnt drop a ward into the brush. Easiest way to do that is to just say "is there any reason that you NEED to be able to do it currently." If I cant think of any reason why I need to be able to do it, but the alternative is that it makes the game slightly more interesting (IE more map awareness) it at least isnt a totally stupid idea.
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I already gave you a reason: it disproportionally hurts purple team's ability to ward against baron. It gives top purple and bot blue even MORE of a warding advantage when they already have the best options.
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On December 06 2011 08:06 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:03 Lanzoma wrote:
What do you mean by "why wards need to be in bushes"? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. Im trying to think about the downside of changing it so that you couldnt drop a ward into the brush. Easiest way to do that is to just say "is there any reason that you NEED to be able to do it currently." If I cant think of any reason why I need to be able to do it, but the alternative is that it makes the game slightly more interesting (IE more map awareness) it at least isnt a totally stupid idea.
Ward in brush gives vision during fights near baron or in certain jungle areas, which is a pretty big deal. Now, that change would make those brushes more strategical control points during said fights so it's not necessarily a bad change to take away that vision possibility without a body occupying it, just pointing it out.
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On December 06 2011 07:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
Huh, random thought. What if they changed wards so that you couldnt drop a ward into brush? Would make ganking bot lane slightly more interesting.
Lol, you must've never played botlane/be zoned top lane. Being unable to ward the brush=autolosing some lanes.
On December 06 2011 08:06 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:03 Lanzoma wrote:
What do you mean by "why wards need to be in bushes"? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. Im trying to think about the downside of changing it so that you couldnt drop a ward into the brush. Easiest way to do that is to just say "is there any reason that you NEED to be able to do it currently." If I cant think of any reason why I need to be able to do it, but the alternative is that it makes the game slightly more interesting (IE more map awareness) it at least isnt a totally stupid idea.
How about lane control.
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EPT
