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[Patch 1.0.0.130: Volibear] General Discussion - Page 121

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Want to rage about your latest loss?
Use the QQ thread.
If you whine in GD, you'll get warned.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
December 05 2011 21:43 GMT
#2401
On December 06 2011 06:42 Sabin010 wrote:
What about having a Tri-lane mid and roaming to gank the 2v1 lane clear camps and gank the 1v1 lane?

Mid is too short. You cant zone effectively.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
December 05 2011 21:49 GMT
#2402
On December 06 2011 06:42 JBright wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 06:23 sylverfyre wrote:
BANKING SYSTEM FOR WOLF CAMP
First Clear at Game Time Total Value of Camp
1:40 148xp / 54g
2:40 148xp / 54g
3:40 148xp / 54g
4:40 (half bank) 168xp / 57g
5:40+ (full bank) 187xp / 60g
Numbers credit to http://ggchronicle.com/under-the-hood-the-new-jungle/

Wait, so the creep-banking system doesn't even START accumulating exp and gold until a camp has been idle for TWO MINUTES? And then it takes ANOTHER two minutes to reach the max bank amount?
How is this supposed to facilitate early-mid ganking not being punishing if you fail? You're still going to be done with the gank (failed or succeeded), backed, healed, bought, and in your jungle farming again before two minutes have passed, let alone FOUR MINUTES.

On top of that, the gold/exp increases aren't anything earth-shattering (the exp doesn't look TOO insignificant if it didn't take forever to happen.)




No, that's when he first cleared the wolf camp. So no banking until 3:40 into the game but it only take 2 minutes to get it to its full amount.


That's exactly what sylverfyre was saying. Clear camp at 1:40, TWO MINUTES later (3:40) no change in value. ANOTHER TWO MINUTES (5:40) you've fully banked the camp. Total time to bank: FOUR MINUTES.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 21:54:45
December 05 2011 21:49 GMT
#2403
On December 06 2011 06:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 06:12 Craton wrote:
Junglers that were used in tournaments and qualifiers pre jungle nerf:
Alistar (Cyanide)
Amumu
Fiddlesticks
Gangplank
Jarvan (SV)
Lee Sin
Maokai
Master Yi (Guangzhao)
Nocturne
Nunu
Rammus
Riven
Shaco
Shyvana
Skarner
Trundle
Tryndamere
Udyr
WW (Chinese teams)


Champs used in a couple early qualifier rounds
Blitz
Cho
Olaf

And this is just from games I can remember offhand. I'm sure there are a few more. Good luck convincing anyone that there's a higher level of play that that.


Well I would make a list of 20 champions that have ever been used in the past six months, but sadly the jungle changes have only been out for a few weeks now. There have already been more than four junglers used in tournament level play though so the proportions are still off.


New jungle hasn't been used in tournaments/qualifiers yet because tourney client hasn't switched over to it.

edit:
I think the number of viable junglers at competitive play definitely decreased. But I do think it's too early to tell how drastic the decrease was especially since we haven't actually seen a single tournament game with the new jungle.
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
December 05 2011 21:55 GMT
#2404
On December 06 2011 06:41 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 05:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On December 06 2011 04:45 Woony wrote:
Some good math/theorycrafting on the new jungle http://ggchronicle.com/under-the-hood-the-new-jungle/


With those numbers it just seems funny that people are whining so much about the new jungle. It definitely made bad junglers worse though which people probably equated to the patch instead of themselves.


You have to put those numbers in context. For example, the gold/exp chart is misleading because idle time is different for pre-revamp and post revamp. A camp that has been idle for 40 seconds post-revamp has literally just spawned pre-revamp. If you retool the chart in that context it looks like this.

0:40: 120xp/31g | 86xp/32g | 89exp/32g
1:00: 100xp/26g | 72xp/27g | 74xp/27g
2:00: 71xp/18g | 48xp/18g | 49xp/18g
3:00: 52xp/13g | 36xp/13g | 42xp/14g (half bank)
4:00: 41xp/11g | 29xp/11g | 37xp/15g (full bank)

This is basically the problem with the new jungle in a nutshell. If you can afk farm the new jungle without downtime you'll keep up on levels and gold just fine (in fact, gaining more of both than before). However, any ganking or idle time whatsoever immediately costs you and puts you significantly behind the old jungle.

That's why people are complaining. Unless the meta shifts to where nobody expects ganks from their jungler you're going to be compelled to exit the jungle and cost yourself exp and gold, and often.


Which is the entire problem in the first place. Everybody is trying to use the same strategies in the new jungle when they should be looking for completely new strategies and heaven forbid there is an opportunity cost for ganking now. In the old jungle you'd either gank or go back because there was literally nothing else you could do besides counter jungling. That changing isn't a bad thing in my opinion.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Xedat
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany358 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 22:03:47
December 05 2011 22:03 GMT
#2405
@Sabin010
That sounds like duo mid with a jungler or 2 roamers/junglers. Xp is really bad in a tri lane and no matter how often you gank 2v1 bot will deny your guy bot of everything.
But I think your idea might work in te sense that you get a support that can also jungle a bit and leave bot often. Maybe some unconventional support with heal or something, leona with heal seems to be strong, don't know if she can clear any cmaps at an acceptable speed.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
December 05 2011 22:05 GMT
#2406
On December 06 2011 06:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 06:41 Seuss wrote:
On December 06 2011 05:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On December 06 2011 04:45 Woony wrote:
Some good math/theorycrafting on the new jungle http://ggchronicle.com/under-the-hood-the-new-jungle/


With those numbers it just seems funny that people are whining so much about the new jungle. It definitely made bad junglers worse though which people probably equated to the patch instead of themselves.


You have to put those numbers in context. For example, the gold/exp chart is misleading because idle time is different for pre-revamp and post revamp. A camp that has been idle for 40 seconds post-revamp has literally just spawned pre-revamp. If you retool the chart in that context it looks like this.

0:40: 120xp/31g | 86xp/32g | 89exp/32g
1:00: 100xp/26g | 72xp/27g | 74xp/27g
2:00: 71xp/18g | 48xp/18g | 49xp/18g
3:00: 52xp/13g | 36xp/13g | 42xp/14g (half bank)
4:00: 41xp/11g | 29xp/11g | 37xp/15g (full bank)

This is basically the problem with the new jungle in a nutshell. If you can afk farm the new jungle without downtime you'll keep up on levels and gold just fine (in fact, gaining more of both than before). However, any ganking or idle time whatsoever immediately costs you and puts you significantly behind the old jungle.

That's why people are complaining. Unless the meta shifts to where nobody expects ganks from their jungler you're going to be compelled to exit the jungle and cost yourself exp and gold, and often.


Which is the entire problem in the first place. Everybody is trying to use the same strategies in the new jungle when they should be looking for completely new strategies and heaven forbid there is an opportunity cost for ganking now. In the old jungle you'd either gank or go back because there was literally nothing else you could do besides counter jungling. That changing isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

Here is the thing- because ganking was part of the game for so long, balance was BUILT around the old jungle. Level patterns, power curves, everything was built around the idea that jungles would have the option to relieve pressure from lanes that were powerful. Its why heavy harass champs like urgot and leblanc are allowed to exist- there is a way to relieve that pressure. At the same time, its the reason why cho, yorick, and singed can exist- heavy sustain lanes can be moved by bringing in a second party.

So by changing the jungle, Riot essentially changed every single lane in the game, and the aftereffects of this are still barely being felt. So dont say that it is just jungle that needs to adapt- EVERYTHING is fucked now.

Eventually the shift will be towards running a heavy sustain lane top, some sort of aggressive mid, and a heavy sustain support/ad bot. Why? Because the jungle cant be in 3 places at once like before. How do you move cho'gath and protect annie from leblanc? Essentially every lane is going to have to be fully independent now. Which means that if riot wants the same number of champs to be viable, they are going to have to FURTHER homogenize power curves. Which is going to make the game suck even more.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
December 05 2011 22:07 GMT
#2407
On December 06 2011 07:05 Two_DoWn wrote:
Here is the thing- because ganking was part of the game for so long, balance was BUILT around the old jungle.


stop talking out of your ass
the designers have spoken for months almost years now how they want jungling to be an option not a requirement
and i would wager that well over half of all games have no jungler, probably close to 2/3rds
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
December 05 2011 22:10 GMT
#2408
Or you could just pick 5 aoe champions and blow up team fights.
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
December 05 2011 22:11 GMT
#2409
On December 06 2011 07:10 Sabin010 wrote:
Or you could just pick 5 aoe champions and blow up team fights.

Counter with 5 zhonyas huehuehue
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
December 05 2011 22:13 GMT
#2410
On December 06 2011 07:07 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 07:05 Two_DoWn wrote:
Here is the thing- because ganking was part of the game for so long, balance was BUILT around the old jungle.


stop talking out of your ass
the designers have spoken for months almost years now how they want jungling to be an option not a requirement
and i would wager that well over half of all games have no jungler, probably close to 2/3rds

You are a moron. Seriously. You just disagree with me to be divisive.

Really. Riot doesnt balance around games that have a jungle. So that means that they just balance around sub 25 normals and below 800 elo games. They CERTAINLY dont balance around tournaments, cuz god forbid they would do something lie nerf ezreal because high elo players are too good with him. And they DEFINITELY wouldnt nerf orianna for being to strong in the right hands. So how could they possibly balance something as important as laning and champion interactions around the jungle. I mean, nerfing teemo because he was ungankable with a wriggles and shrooms and could just push all day long? That would be HILARIOUS.



Seriously. NEVER respond to one of my posts again. All you ever do is spout shit that makes no sense.

User was warned for this post
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 22:16:30
December 05 2011 22:13 GMT
#2411
How can you Zhonya's when you're taunted by Galileo?

I would actually expect them to buff Teemo. They have like 3 legendary skins they need to sell. Soraka and Udyr only have 2 skins they can sell so I expect those two to get nerfed while Teemo gets buffed.
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
December 05 2011 22:13 GMT
#2412
On December 06 2011 07:05 Two_DoWn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 06:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On December 06 2011 06:41 Seuss wrote:
On December 06 2011 05:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On December 06 2011 04:45 Woony wrote:
Some good math/theorycrafting on the new jungle http://ggchronicle.com/under-the-hood-the-new-jungle/


With those numbers it just seems funny that people are whining so much about the new jungle. It definitely made bad junglers worse though which people probably equated to the patch instead of themselves.


You have to put those numbers in context. For example, the gold/exp chart is misleading because idle time is different for pre-revamp and post revamp. A camp that has been idle for 40 seconds post-revamp has literally just spawned pre-revamp. If you retool the chart in that context it looks like this.

0:40: 120xp/31g | 86xp/32g | 89exp/32g
1:00: 100xp/26g | 72xp/27g | 74xp/27g
2:00: 71xp/18g | 48xp/18g | 49xp/18g
3:00: 52xp/13g | 36xp/13g | 42xp/14g (half bank)
4:00: 41xp/11g | 29xp/11g | 37xp/15g (full bank)

This is basically the problem with the new jungle in a nutshell. If you can afk farm the new jungle without downtime you'll keep up on levels and gold just fine (in fact, gaining more of both than before). However, any ganking or idle time whatsoever immediately costs you and puts you significantly behind the old jungle.

That's why people are complaining. Unless the meta shifts to where nobody expects ganks from their jungler you're going to be compelled to exit the jungle and cost yourself exp and gold, and often.


Which is the entire problem in the first place. Everybody is trying to use the same strategies in the new jungle when they should be looking for completely new strategies and heaven forbid there is an opportunity cost for ganking now. In the old jungle you'd either gank or go back because there was literally nothing else you could do besides counter jungling. That changing isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

Here is the thing- because ganking was part of the game for so long, balance was BUILT around the old jungle. Level patterns, power curves, everything was built around the idea that jungles would have the option to relieve pressure from lanes that were powerful. Its why heavy harass champs like urgot and leblanc are allowed to exist- there is a way to relieve that pressure. At the same time, its the reason why cho, yorick, and singed can exist- heavy sustain lanes can be moved by bringing in a second party.

So by changing the jungle, Riot essentially changed every single lane in the game, and the aftereffects of this are still barely being felt. So dont say that it is just jungle that needs to adapt- EVERYTHING is fucked now.

Eventually the shift will be towards running a heavy sustain lane top, some sort of aggressive mid, and a heavy sustain support/ad bot. Why? Because the jungle cant be in 3 places at once like before. How do you move cho'gath and protect annie from leblanc? Essentially every lane is going to have to be fully independent now. Which means that if riot wants the same number of champs to be viable, they are going to have to FURTHER homogenize power curves. Which is going to make the game suck even more.


So basically you're saying that the game shouldn't change because people are too lazy (insert other negative adjective here) to deal with changes?
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 22:16:16
December 05 2011 22:14 GMT
#2413
On December 06 2011 06:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
In the old jungle you'd either gank or go back because there was literally nothing else you could do besides counter jungling.

NO!

This is NOT how jungling was. This is the line Riot kept feeding the public until they believed it, but it's a load of bullshit.

On December 06 2011 07:07 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 07:05 Two_DoWn wrote:
Here is the thing- because ganking was part of the game for so long, balance was BUILT around the old jungle.


stop talking out of your ass
the designers have spoken for months almost years now how they want jungling to be an option not a requirement
and i would wager that well over half of all games have no jungler, probably close to 2/3rds

Irony. How about you provide your own proof of such claims.
twitch.tv/cratonz
epoc
Profile Joined December 2010
Finland1190 Posts
December 05 2011 22:14 GMT
#2414
I would really like to see trilane in some lol competitive match someday.
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
December 05 2011 22:15 GMT
#2415
On December 06 2011 07:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 07:07 gtrsrs wrote:
On December 06 2011 07:05 Two_DoWn wrote:
Here is the thing- because ganking was part of the game for so long, balance was BUILT around the old jungle.


stop talking out of your ass
the designers have spoken for months almost years now how they want jungling to be an option not a requirement
and i would wager that well over half of all games have no jungler, probably close to 2/3rds

You are a moron. Seriously. You just disagree with me to be divisive.

Really. Riot doesnt balance around games that have a jungle. So that means that they just balance around sub 25 normals and below 800 elo games. They CERTAINLY dont balance around tournaments, cuz god forbid they would do something lie nerf ezreal because high elo players are too good with him. And they DEFINITELY wouldnt nerf orianna for being to strong in the right hands. So how could they possibly balance something as important as laning and champion interactions around the jungle. I mean, nerfing teemo because he was ungankable with a wriggles and shrooms and could just push all day long? That would be HILARIOUS.



Seriously. NEVER respond to one of my posts again. All you ever do is spout shit that makes no sense.

While no one lieks guitar, balancing the jungle around lanes is close to impossible because there are too many uncontrollable factors.
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-05 22:17:22
December 05 2011 22:17 GMT
#2416
On December 06 2011 07:14 epoc wrote:
I would really like to see trilane in some lol competitive match someday.

If I wanted to fall asleep watching a trilane I'd watch Dota. They're going to kill their own game if they keep ruining the aspects of LoL that people find superior.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
December 05 2011 22:17 GMT
#2417
On December 06 2011 07:14 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 06:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Which is the entire problem in the first place. Everybody is trying to use the same strategies in the new jungle when they should be looking for completely new strategies and heaven forbid there is an opportunity cost for ganking now. In the old jungle you'd either gank or go back because there was literally nothing else you could do besides counter jungling. That changing isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

NO!

This is NOT how jungling was. This is the line Riot kept feeding the public until they believed it, but it's a load of bullshit.


How was it not like that? Almost every jungler in the game could clear faster than the jungle spawned. You didn't just stand around doing nothing while you waited for it to respawn either. Some speed clearers like Udyr practically re-invented counter jungling or brought it back to the metagame after Nunu had been neglected for so long because they cleared so much faster that they had to fill it with something.

After wriggles pretty much every jungler cleared faster than the jungle spawned...
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
December 05 2011 22:19 GMT
#2418
You ganked when there were openings and when someone needed help. You didn't just say 'fuck you guys I have to finish clearing my jungle' until you reached the point where there was nothing left to kill. You CAN'T do that now. Helping a struggling lane hurts you so much as the jungler and there is no way to time a partial clear > gank > partial clear > gank because everything gives so little but respawns so fast that you are forced to be afk farming it.
twitch.tv/cratonz
epoc
Profile Joined December 2010
Finland1190 Posts
December 05 2011 22:20 GMT
#2419
On December 06 2011 07:17 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 07:14 epoc wrote:
I would really like to see trilane in some lol competitive match someday.

If I wanted to fall asleep watching a trilane I'd watch Dota. They're going to kill their own game if they keep ruining the aspects of LoL that people find superior.


You would never want to see someone try it? Never? 5 years in the future you want to see 1-1-2 jungle?
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
December 05 2011 22:20 GMT
#2420
But turning around a losing lane into a winning lane is more beneficial to your team then just afk farming your jungle now.
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