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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 06 2011 05:35 gtrsrs wrote:
i feel like maokai got significantly worse
maybe i'll have to mess around with him some more
The thing is every jungler got worse. It just means that the power level for a good jungler has changed.
On December 06 2011 05:18 Woony wrote:
From 21 viable junglers to like 4, real changes
Just because you could jungle the entire hero pool before the jungle changes doesn't mean so many champions were viable. There were not 21 champions that were on the highest tier since that's all you're looking at post change with your four figure. Jungle whining is worse than all the balance whining in the sc2 forums.
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On December 06 2011 05:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 05:35 gtrsrs wrote:
i feel like maokai got significantly worse
maybe i'll have to mess around with him some more The thing is every jungler got worse. It just means that the power level for a good jungler has changed. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 05:18 Woony wrote:
From 21 viable junglers to like 4, real changes Just because you could jungle the entire hero pool before the jungle changes doesn't mean so many champions were viable. There were not 21 champions that were on the highest tier since that's all you're looking at post change with your four figure. Jungle whining is worse than all the balance whining in the sc2 forums.
actually i disagree, i think udyr and skarner and any other champs who can basically go from camp to camp and kill them on spawn got significantly buffed
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The changes to the jungler were to promote aggressive play? I mean I don't even want to gank anymore because if I fail the gank I'm going to end up behind the enemy jungler. At least before there was a window were you could fail a gank and go clear camps as they spawned anyway.
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Junglers that were used in tournaments and qualifiers pre jungle nerf:
Alistar (Cyanide)
Amumu
Fiddlesticks
Gangplank
Jarvan (SV)
Lee Sin
Maokai
Master Yi (Guangzhao)
Nocturne
Nunu
Rammus
Riven
Shaco
Shyvana
Skarner
Trundle
Tryndamere
Udyr
WW (Chinese teams)
Champs used in a couple early qualifier rounds
Blitz
Cho
Olaf
And this is just from games I can remember offhand. I'm sure there are a few more. Good luck convincing anyone that there's a higher level of play that that.
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as far as I can tell, Udyr, Skarnar, Rammus, Shyvanna, Shaco, Maokai, Malphite, Lee Sin, Nocturne and Amumu are all viable in the new jungle. Wouldn't surprise me if Cho, Yi and Olaf were too.
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Olaf clears fastish but feels poor as hell. Lee Sin is slow as balls.
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olaf isn't, unfortunately
i played around with him a bit and he just can't compete speedwise
i really wanted him to work but i couldn't do it
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Poor Brolaf 
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BANKING SYSTEM FOR WOLF CAMP
First Clear at Game Time Total Value of Camp
1:40 148xp / 54g
2:40 148xp / 54g
3:40 148xp / 54g
4:40 (half bank) 168xp / 57g
5:40+ (full bank) 187xp / 60g
Numbers credit to http://ggchronicle.com/under-the-hood-the-new-jungle/
Wait, so the creep-banking system doesn't even START accumulating exp and gold until a camp has been idle for TWO MINUTES? And then it takes ANOTHER two minutes to reach the max bank amount?
How is this supposed to facilitate early-mid ganking not being punishing if you fail? You're still going to be done with the gank (failed or succeeded), backed, healed, bought, and in your jungle farming again before two minutes have passed, let alone FOUR MINUTES.
On top of that, the gold/exp increases aren't anything earth-shattering (the exp doesn't look TOO insignificant if it didn't take forever to happen.)
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Lets say you counter gank and get a double kill but instead of taking a turret you just go and clear the whole enemy jungle, and then you can get the banked shit in your jungle.
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On December 06 2011 06:12 Craton wrote:
Junglers that were used in tournaments and qualifiers pre jungle nerf:
Alistar (Cyanide)
Amumu
Fiddlesticks
Gangplank
Jarvan (SV)
Lee Sin
Maokai
Master Yi (Guangzhao)
Nocturne
Nunu
Rammus
Riven
Shaco
Shyvana
Skarner
Trundle
Tryndamere
Udyr
WW (Chinese teams)
Champs used in a couple early qualifier rounds
Blitz
Cho
Olaf
And this is just from games I can remember offhand. I'm sure there are a few more. Good luck convincing anyone that there's a higher level of play that that.
Well I would make a list of 20 champions that have ever been used in the past six months, but sadly the jungle changes have only been out for a few weeks now. There have already been more than four junglers used in tournament level play though so the proportions are still off.
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On December 06 2011 06:28 Sabin010 wrote:
Lets say you counter gank and get a double kill but instead of taking a turret you just go and clear the whole enemy jungle, and then you can get the banked shit in your jungle.
I think I'll just take the damned turret, it's worth waaaaaaaaaaay more gold (750 team gold vs all 3 small camps gold? Even the PERSONAL gold of the turret is competitive with clearing their entire jungle. Shit, how about dragon?)
On December 06 2011 06:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:12 Craton wrote:
Junglers that were used in tournaments and qualifiers pre jungle nerf:
Alistar (Cyanide)
Amumu
Fiddlesticks
Gangplank
Jarvan (SV)
Lee Sin
Maokai
Master Yi (Guangzhao)
Nocturne
Nunu
Rammus
Riven
Shaco
Shyvana
Skarner
Trundle
Tryndamere
Udyr
WW (Chinese teams)
Champs used in a couple early qualifier rounds
Blitz
Cho
Olaf
And this is just from games I can remember offhand. I'm sure there are a few more. Good luck convincing anyone that there's a higher level of play that that. Well I would make a list of 20 champions that have ever been used in the past six months, but sadly the jungle changes have only been out for a few weeks now. There have already been more than four junglers used in tournament level play though so the proportions are still off.
IEM Kiev qualifiers aren't on the jungle changed patch. I think only CLG's Tournamentception thing was.
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The point of the suggested banking system was to allow junglers who are slightly slower at clearing the jungle, or those who gank a lot, not to fall behind due to having jungle mob uptime.
It's completely stupid if the banking system starts after 2 minutes because even the slowest of slow junglers are not going to let their camps untaken for 2 minutes.
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On December 06 2011 06:13 Mogwai wrote:
as far as I can tell, Udyr, Skarnar, Rammus, Shyvanna, Shaco, Maokai, Malphite, Lee Sin, Nocturne and Amumu are all viable in the new jungle. Wouldn't surprise me if Cho, Yi and Olaf were too.
gp is weaker imho.
donno about others
but rammus is retardly strong now lol
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That doesn't actually matter though sylverfyre. If you wait six months I guarantee you we'll have a lot more than four junglers ever used in tournament games.
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On December 06 2011 06:23 sylverfyre wrote:BANKING SYSTEM FOR WOLF CAMP First Clear at Game Time Total Value of Camp 1:40 148xp / 54g 2:40 148xp / 54g 3:40 148xp / 54g 4:40 (half bank) 168xp / 57g 5:40+ (full bank) 187xp / 60g Numbers credit to http://ggchronicle.com/under-the-hood-the-new-jungle/Wait, so the creep-banking system doesn't even START accumulating exp and gold until a camp has been idle for TWO MINUTES? And then it takes ANOTHER two minutes to reach the max bank amount? How is this supposed to facilitate early-mid ganking not being punishing if you fail? You're still going to be done with the gank (failed or succeeded), backed, healed, bought, and in your jungle farming again before two minutes have passed, let alone FOUR MINUTES. On top of that, the gold/exp increases aren't anything earth-shattering (the exp doesn't look TOO insignificant if it didn't take forever to happen.)
It's for when you gank, and you're away for 4 minutes, you know? Don't you just randomly stop farming for 3+ minutes at a time?
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On December 06 2011 05:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:With those numbers it just seems funny that people are whining so much about the new jungle. It definitely made bad junglers worse though which people probably equated to the patch instead of themselves.
You have to put those numbers in context. For example, the gold/exp chart is misleading because idle time is different for pre-revamp and post revamp. A camp that has been idle for 40 seconds post-revamp has literally just spawned pre-revamp. If you retool the chart in that context it looks like this.
0:40: 120xp/31g | 86xp/32g | 89exp/32g
1:00: 100xp/26g | 72xp/27g | 74xp/27g
2:00: 71xp/18g | 48xp/18g | 49xp/18g
3:00: 52xp/13g | 36xp/13g | 42xp/14g (half bank)
4:00: 41xp/11g | 29xp/11g | 37xp/15g (full bank)
This is basically the problem with the new jungle in a nutshell. If you can afk farm the new jungle without downtime you'll keep up on levels and gold just fine (in fact, gaining more of both than before). However, any ganking or idle time whatsoever immediately costs you and puts you significantly behind the old jungle.
That's why people are complaining. Unless the meta shifts to where nobody expects ganks from their jungler you're going to be compelled to exit the jungle and cost yourself exp and gold, and often.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On December 06 2011 06:23 sylverfyre wrote:BANKING SYSTEM FOR WOLF CAMP First Clear at Game Time Total Value of Camp 1:40 148xp / 54g 2:40 148xp / 54g 3:40 148xp / 54g 4:40 (half bank) 168xp / 57g 5:40+ (full bank) 187xp / 60g Numbers credit to http://ggchronicle.com/under-the-hood-the-new-jungle/Wait, so the creep-banking system doesn't even START accumulating exp and gold until a camp has been idle for TWO MINUTES? And then it takes ANOTHER two minutes to reach the max bank amount? How is this supposed to facilitate early-mid ganking not being punishing if you fail? You're still going to be done with the gank (failed or succeeded), backed, healed, bought, and in your jungle farming again before two minutes have passed, let alone FOUR MINUTES. On top of that, the gold/exp increases aren't anything earth-shattering (the exp doesn't look TOO insignificant if it didn't take forever to happen.)
No, that's when he first cleared the wolf camp. So no banking until 3:40 into the game but it only take 2 minutes to get it to its full amount.
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I actually think GP is pretty strong. He doesnt have the same speed, but if you max q you can actually farm well enough to keep up with everyone. You just need to be sure to gank and grab waves of exp.
Although you need to do that with anyone now zzz.
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What about having a Tri-lane mid and roaming to gank the 2v1 lane clear camps and gank the 1v1 lane?
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EPT
