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On October 27 2011 04:00 L wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
What bothers me the most is this "Buy Chain Vest, win lane" idea as a counter to Talon. Yes, you won't die to Talon in your own lane but what's to stop him from farming? Rake make farming so incredibly easy for Talon unless you're a Garen who can Flash Silence, for example.
If you can't stop Talon from last hitting with W, what's to stop him from ganking your allies that don't have a Chain Vest as soon as he hits 6? Talon has zero sustain in his kit, low hp and mediocre resistances. If he cannot trade positively, he cannot stay in the lane. His only method of trading besides ewq is to throw w and hope you get hit, which will only be the case if you over extend. So? You push him out of the lane like anybody else that's melee and can't make proper trades, by pushing into creeps and forcing him to rake you instead of to rice. The alternative is just to smash the lane into his tower if you're running a hero that can obliterate a lane because it leaves you very open to go gank other lanes/take drag/push the tower. If he's forced to rake and hit the ranged creeps, he loses all of them to the tower.
Smashing into his tower is a great way to get destroyed by a gank as well, because Talon is one of the absolute best gank assists there are(hello extra damage off the junglers cc and red buff slow, along with a silence/flash and slow himself).
Also rake doesn't have to be lost ranged creeps, I guess if you just toss it out there at a random time to do the most creep wave damage, but you can control it and rice the back line just fine against the tower unless you've built up like 3 waves of creeps. While you're pushing his rake is hitting you and the creeps also, so it's pretty rough to just brute force him into the tower with a big wave that isn't already well within tower+hit range, or just one more rake.
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On October 27 2011 03:46 taLbuk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:40 red_ wrote:On October 27 2011 03:32 taLbuk wrote:
but the point still stands that people have figured him out and are beginning to counter him rather than ban, but alot of top teams still ban him vs certain teams like dignitas
How does that point still stand? When was that point ever made for it to be standing somehow? Nobody is fucking counterpicking him. The only play we've seen since IEM NY is the WCG shit, and he's still a ban/first pick champion. What the fuck is wrong with you people. can you type without sounding like a complete hothead? "the point" was referring to my reply to theyango yes talon is good, and especially ban worthy vs teams who have masters of him like dignitas (like i said), but there are decent counters out there which players have shown to be effective
Pretty much every champion can be counterpicked, with very few exceptions. Cait and Kog can be, and they're considered the best AD carries right now. Cassiopeia can be, and she was also really high on the pick/ban list for IEM NY.
Saying "oh just counter pick him" isn't a complete solution. His viability in all lanes forces the entire enemy team to counter pick him, if you want to play that game. If you force the entire enemy team to be anti-Talon, you win because you can pick your own team ezpznp.
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Can someone just accept Brees' 1v1 challenge so we can be done with it?
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On October 27 2011 04:22 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:46 taLbuk wrote:On October 27 2011 03:40 red_ wrote:On October 27 2011 03:32 taLbuk wrote:
but the point still stands that people have figured him out and are beginning to counter him rather than ban, but alot of top teams still ban him vs certain teams like dignitas
How does that point still stand? When was that point ever made for it to be standing somehow? Nobody is fucking counterpicking him. The only play we've seen since IEM NY is the WCG shit, and he's still a ban/first pick champion. What the fuck is wrong with you people. can you type without sounding like a complete hothead? "the point" was referring to my reply to theyango yes talon is good, and especially ban worthy vs teams who have masters of him like dignitas (like i said), but there are decent counters out there which players have shown to be effective Pretty much every champion can be counterpicked, with very few exceptions. Cait and Kog can be, and they're considered the best AD carries right now. Cassiopeia can be, and she was also really high on the pick/ban list for IEM NY. Saying "oh just counter pick him" isn't a complete solution. His viability in all lanes forces the entire enemy team to counter pick him, if you want to play that game. If you force the entire enemy team to be anti-Talon, you win because you can pick your own team ezpznp.
pretty laughable to insinuate i said "oh just counterpick him" after replying to ONE comment, maybe people in the previous pages did, but all i did was tell "theyango" that although the IEM NY statistics show talon being 5-0, it isn't entirely consistant to what we would see today weeks after the event, as top players are more acclimated with talon's limits
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
THAT SNEAK PEAK SO AWESOME ! DEMACIAN DRAGON, OH YESH !
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On October 27 2011 04:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
Can someone just accept Brees' 1v1 challenge so we can be done with it?
Someone stream if it's going down.
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Seriously. Less theory and more outright smash heads into each other. Only way to settle this is the Fields of Justice!
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On October 27 2011 04:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
Can someone just accept Brees' 1v1 challenge so we can be done with it?
Honestly though, a 1v1 with Brees going in knowing Talon will be the other person isn't a good metric. Saying "I can 1v1 knowing that I'll have the counter" is silly. I'll 1v1 anyone at or around my level if I knew what they were going to be playing. "Oh, 1v1 your Akali? K, gonna pick Galio, gg no re".
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On October 27 2011 04:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
Can someone just accept Brees' 1v1 challenge so we can be done with it?
seriously, I want someone to man up, brees is putting it on the line
On October 27 2011 04:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
Can someone just accept Brees' 1v1 challenge so we can be done with it? Honestly though, a 1v1 with Brees going in knowing Talon will be the other person isn't a good metric. Saying "I can 1v1 knowing that I'll have the counter" is silly. I'll 1v1 anyone at or around my level if I knew what they were going to be playing. "Oh, 1v1 your Akali? K, gonna pick Galio, gg no re".
he said he'd pick any common ap mid... lol. As well as any common top. There is just no excuse.
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On October 27 2011 04:28 UniversalSnip wrote:
seriously, I want someone to man up, brees is putting it on the line
So you can use an irrelevant scenario as psuedo proof?
Even if he lost it'd be twisted to devalue it.
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On October 27 2011 04:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
Can someone just accept Brees' 1v1 challenge so we can be done with it? Honestly though, a 1v1 with Brees going in knowing Talon will be the other person isn't a good metric. Saying "I can 1v1 knowing that I'll have the counter" is silly. I'll 1v1 anyone at or around my level if I knew what they were going to be playing. "Oh, 1v1 your Akali? K, gonna pick Galio, gg no re".
He clearly stated that he'll play any common mid or common top.
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On October 27 2011 04:30 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:28 UniversalSnip wrote:
seriously, I want someone to man up, brees is putting it on the line So you can use an irrelevant scenario as psuedo proof? Even if he lost it'd be twisted.
Nobody cares if he tries to twist it if he loses, we can think you know.
And I don't see how 'the lane phase' is an irrelevant scenario.
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On October 27 2011 04:17 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:00 L wrote:On October 27 2011 03:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
What bothers me the most is this "Buy Chain Vest, win lane" idea as a counter to Talon. Yes, you won't die to Talon in your own lane but what's to stop him from farming? Rake make farming so incredibly easy for Talon unless you're a Garen who can Flash Silence, for example.
If you can't stop Talon from last hitting with W, what's to stop him from ganking your allies that don't have a Chain Vest as soon as he hits 6? Talon has zero sustain in his kit, low hp and mediocre resistances. If he cannot trade positively, he cannot stay in the lane. His only method of trading besides ewq is to throw w and hope you get hit, which will only be the case if you over extend. So? You push him out of the lane like anybody else that's melee and can't make proper trades, by pushing into creeps and forcing him to rake you instead of to rice. The alternative is just to smash the lane into his tower if you're running a hero that can obliterate a lane because it leaves you very open to go gank other lanes/take drag/push the tower. If he's forced to rake and hit the ranged creeps, he loses all of them to the tower. Smashing into his tower is a great way to get destroyed by a gank as well, because Talon is one of the absolute best gank assists there are(hello extra damage off the junglers cc and red buff slow, along with a silence/flash and slow himself). Also rake doesn't have to be lost ranged creeps, I guess if you just toss it out there at a random time to do the most creep wave damage, but you can control it and rice the back line just fine against the tower unless you've built up like 3 waves of creeps. While you're pushing his rake is hitting you and the creeps also, so it's pretty rough to just brute force him into the tower with a big wave that isn't already well within tower+hit range, or just one more rake.
Uh, when the wave's at his tower, you leave the lane and go take objectives, gank another lane, etc. If you don't have a kit that lets you push his tower safely, you don't. If you do? Knock yourself out.
Rake does not clear waves quickly until Talon hits a BF sword, or more likely a bruta/bf at which point it kills the ranged creeps in 1 shot. Until that point, raking the and hitting the back creeps forces talon to get into melee range of the ranged creeps to get them, or forces him to wait for a second rake. If he's in tower range, he's done enough damage to the creeps to make them 1 shottable by the tower.
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What always floors me is how people want to come into an argument with a position that goes against the opinions of the majority (of both pros and amateurs) and think that by saying their opinion that it's somehow true. Then, they proceed to say "you haven't proven it wrong" as if the onus of proof wasn't on the person challenging the accepted position.
Consider someone coming in here and said Eve was the most overpowered champ in the game and that they're right because you haven't proven them wrong. That's exactly what you're doing now.
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On October 27 2011 04:30 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:28 Requizen wrote:On October 27 2011 04:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
Can someone just accept Brees' 1v1 challenge so we can be done with it? Honestly though, a 1v1 with Brees going in knowing Talon will be the other person isn't a good metric. Saying "I can 1v1 knowing that I'll have the counter" is silly. I'll 1v1 anyone at or around my level if I knew what they were going to be playing. "Oh, 1v1 your Akali? K, gonna pick Galio, gg no re". He clearly stated that he'll play any common mid or common top.
Missed that, my bad. I'd watch, want to see an AP mid who can match Talon in lane. Maybe Morg if her bindings were perfect, or Ryze when built.
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On October 27 2011 04:32 Craton wrote:
What always floors me is how people want to come into an argument with a position that goes against the opinions of the majority (of both pros and amateurs) and think that by saying their opinion that it's somehow true. Then, they proceed to say "you haven't proven it wrong" as if the onus of proof wasn't on the person challenging the accepted position.
Consider someone coming in here and said Eve was the most overpowered champ in the game and that they're right because you haven't proven them wrong. That's exactly what you're doing now.
So go ahead and prove him wrong by playing Talon vs him. I have zero degree of care whether Talon is OP or useless, but one side is willing to walk the walk.
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We need a 2v2. Generic AP carry plus WW versus Talon plus generic jungler. Time to settle this shit.
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On October 27 2011 03:14 gtrsrs wrote:
yeah why are you even theorycrafting talon v wukong? that matchup will never happen
also YEAH TWO_DOWN TOP LEVEL PLAY IS NOT AN INDICATOR OF WHAT'S GOOD ETC. undefeated at IEM but that's not a good argument. need to be undefeated AND picked in every game with no deaths to be considered a good champ
Allow me to clarify before your tiny brain explodes. First- I think talon is very good. I think his burst needs to be toned down a little bit. However, I do not think he is over the top op. Personally, he and akali are my two bans when I play solo q because of how hard he beats on bads. But is he as broken as Ez, Vlad, ect were? No. His numbers are just a bit too high.
As for my rational of bans and picks at a tournament level. First, I NEVER take bans as a measure of what is op, simply because there are too many factors at play. Is Nid op? No. But she gets banned every time HS is in a game. Is trundle op? No, but he is gone most of Jatt's games. There are also picks that are just done to eliminate annoying champions. Shen bans from a while ago are a good example of this. He was never really op, just freaking annoying and most teams didnt want to have to deal with him. Lastly, there are straight up op champions. Ori is a good example of a champ that was just broken. I honestly dont think talon is straight up broken on the scale of Ori.
As for win-loss ratio at the tournament level, this is also very deceptive. I think it was IEM China where I went back and looked at the numbers and found that Kog was like 0-4. Does that mean Kog is a shitty champion? By your logic he must be, because he didnt win a single game. Yet why did he get nerfed recently? Win-loss is a highly variable stat that varies way to much to make it incredibly reliable. Is it interesting? Sure. But actually playing out the game introduces way to many variables to make it fully usable.
In other words, outside of a few very clear broken cases, I think people need to be very cautious when using tourney picks and bans as the be all and end all of evidence. The evidence is very good at describing what pro players think is strong at the moment. It is much harder to see WHY they think the way they do, be the champ a targeted ban, annoying, or straight up op.
Agan, as it relates to talon, I think his numbers are a bit high. But I do no not think that IEM results point to him being "OMG NERF NAO SUPER OP LOOK HE 5-0 NO ONE CAN BEAT HIM."
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we should just do 1000 TL inhouses where neither side can ban talon and one side's gotta pick him
that will definitely represent this complex situation accurately
(I think talon is the best assassin but not OP, just quite strong)
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
at least im generating discussion. these forums are usually boring as fuck.
also just made elementz team rage hard if anyone was watching that lol.
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EPT
