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On October 27 2011 02:34 NeoIllusions wrote:
Stop theorycrafting with nothing substantial to back up your claim.
This devolves into a flame war otherwise. Just hold on to your own opinion until otherwise proven.
Thanks.
I'm not going to say one instance wins all, but recent IEM NY: http://i.imgur.com/JZhDu.png
Talon in games:
Banned - 7
Won - 5
Lost - 0
Not saying he's the reason those games were won, but if he was bad and easily countered he wouldn't be 5-0 with 7 bans.
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On October 27 2011 02:57 Tooplark wrote:
You don't even need sustain to beat talon if you can set him back early.
Full armor runes Wukong vs Talon top. Level 2, Xin gank, crush Talon, buy boots and pots, suddenly he can't trade at all without losing half his health for maybe 1/4 of mine.
(Especially since you can Q before he blinks to you, then follow his retreating with E -> Q.)
It's like when Pantseon was "imba" because no one wanted to spend 700 gold on an item that halved his damage output.
You can say the same about most viable top lanes. Nasus/Irelia/Udyr will crush Talon if they run armor runes + cloth + 5 opener and rush their armor item (Glacial Shroud or Wriggle). If Talon runs in with burst, you slow him and hit him for way harder, then you lifesteal off creep.
The "Talon OP" comments are mostly direct at him crushing most AP's in mid. If you're not used to playing against him then he will certainly dominate most mids. He also can run in any lane except a 1v2 lane, so it's hard to counter him.
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Terrible argument req. There are 2 types of tourney bans: shit that actually is op, and shit that is annoying but counterable. Talon is the later. Teams just ban him out so they dont need to worry about him. That makes him strong, but not op.
There are other ways to deal with talon as well. udyr with a fast oracles shits on talon in every fight. Same with renek or any tanky dps with some sort of silence or stun.
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United States37500 Posts
Talon isn't good top (vs Brusiers)
Talon should be vs some AP mid
Dunno why people are arguing the other scenarios.
Talon doesn't hurt Udyr or Irelia as badly? Who would've thought...
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yeah why are you even theorycrafting talon v wukong? that matchup will never happen
also YEAH TWO_DOWN TOP LEVEL PLAY IS NOT AN INDICATOR OF WHAT'S GOOD ETC. undefeated at IEM but that's not a good argument. need to be undefeated AND picked in every game with no deaths to be considered a good champ
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On October 27 2011 03:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
Terrible argument req. There are 2 types of tourney bans: shit that actually is op, and shit that is annoying but counterable. Talon is the later. Teams just ban him out so they dont need to worry about him. That makes him strong, but not op.
That sounds incredibly silly. yeah, they only get 3 bans but rather than ban out champions that could actually cause serious setbacks to their team they ban champions that "are kind of annoying". right.
sorry but the stats the dude posted speak for theirselves: teams are afraid of playing vs talon
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United States37500 Posts
Don't capslock to poke at people, gtr.
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On October 27 2011 03:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
Terrible argument req. There are 2 types of tourney bans: shit that actually is op, and shit that is annoying but counterable. Talon is the later. Teams just ban him out so they dont need to worry about him. That makes him strong, but not op.
There are other ways to deal with talon as well. udyr with a fast oracles shits on talon in every fight. Same with renek or any tanky dps with some sort of silence or stun.
Of course, I'm not saying he's OP because he's banned, but Neo asked for evidence, so... 
I also like to think about it this way: If you put him top against someone who shuts him down (Nasus and Irelia were brought up, so was Yorick), you're essentially giving a spot on your team to stop a single champion. While Talon might lose that lane, if he plays smart he won't be terribly too far behind. Once the team fight stage of the game comes around, that counter will be great at stopping Talon.... but not much else. At that point, Talon can still go around bursting your squishies down, who didn't itemize Chain Vest or Armor runes.
And, as others say, his viability in other lanes makes him great, even as a first pick. You get someone to counter him top lane, they pick another top lane champion and Talon goes, say, bot. Or mid. Or anywhere else, unless you specifically build your team to stop him everywhere he goes. He, in theory, can force a whole team to specifically try to stop him.
Anyway, you're right in that most of this is theorycraft. He holds true the same thing as most assassins, in that if you don't stop him he snowballs and wins games almost singlehandedly. Akali does, Shaco even can, Twitch can if they don't get an Oracles. Imo, his strength is that his early game is so stupidly strong compared to these other assassins that it's much easier to snowball if you know what to do and the enemy doesn't.
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So, how would Galio mid vs talon mid go down theoretically?
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On October 27 2011 03:17 NeoIllusions wrote:
Don't capslock to poke at people, gtr.
sorry should i just call him retarded and bad and intent on sowing discord with 90% of his posts being worthless driven instead? i forget what's ok on these forums and what's crossing the line
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On October 27 2011 03:23 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:17 NeoIllusions wrote:
Don't capslock to poke at people, gtr. sorry should i just call him retarded and bad and intent on sowing discord with 90% of his posts being worthless driven instead? i forget what's ok on these forums and what's crossing the line
bro i got capslock warning yesterday i feel ya bruh
go 2 years with no warnings and get 3 in 1 week from LoL forums
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On October 27 2011 03:22 57 Corvette wrote:
So, how would Galio mid vs talon mid go down theoretically?
Depends if Galio hits Qs and Ws before Talon's burst.
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On October 27 2011 03:23 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:17 NeoIllusions wrote:
Don't capslock to poke at people, gtr. sorry should i just call him retarded and bad and intent on sowing discord with 90% of his posts being worthless driven instead? i forget what's ok on these forums and what's crossing the line
If you feel like they're retarded and you're not getting trough to them, just don't fucking reply to them. It's probs why a lot of people stopped replying to you.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
Terrible argument req. There are 2 types of tourney bans: shit that actually is op, and shit that is annoying but counterable. Talon is the later. Teams just ban him out so they dont need to worry about him. That makes him strong, but not op.
There are other ways to deal with talon as well. udyr with a fast oracles shits on talon in every fight. Same with renek or any tanky dps with some sort of silence or stun.
It's not proof, but the fact that he won every game he was in despite being an early pick in most/all of those games is at least somewhat indicative of the fact that he's not 100% straightforward to counter.
On October 27 2011 03:22 57 Corvette wrote:
So, how would Galio mid vs talon mid go down theoretically?
Skill dependent lane IMO. Comes down to Galio hitting skillshots and Talon baiting Bulwarks at weird times.
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On October 27 2011 03:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
Terrible argument req. There are 2 types of tourney bans: shit that actually is op, and shit that is annoying but counterable. Talon is the later. Teams just ban him out so they dont need to worry about him. That makes him strong, but not op.
There are other ways to deal with talon as well. udyr with a fast oracles shits on talon in every fight. Same with renek or any tanky dps with some sort of silence or stun. It's not proof, but the fact that he won every game he was in despite being an early pick in most/all of those games is at least somewhat indicative of the fact that he's not 100% straightforward to counter.
he was out for like what? 2 weeks than? people know how to deal with talon now (i.e rammus etc)
but the real shit people should be scared about is xerath
he came out during the beginning of the month packed with back to back tournaments, but now that they are over top players are putting effort into xerath he is scary as shit
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so i think wit's end needs a slight nerf
i buy it on every champion i jungle with and i think it's retardedly strong
makes tanky dps tankier and do more dps for essentially no cost
recurve = 1050 (+40% AS)
null = 400 (+24 MR)
recipe = 550 (+6 MR, +42 magic damage on hit, +20 MR after 4 hits)
even with 0 stacks i feel like the damage is well worth the combine cost, but with full stacks this item is stupidly efficient. 50 MR and 40% as with a BF sword included? O_o
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On October 27 2011 03:28 gtrsrs wrote:
so i think wit's end needs a slight nerf
i buy it on every champion i jungle with and i think it's retardedly strong
makes tanky dps tankier and do more dps for essentially no cost
recurve = 1050 (+40% AS)
null = 400 (+24 MR)
recipe = 550 (+6 MR, +42 magic damage on hit, +20 MR after 4 hits)
even with 0 stacks i feel like the damage is well worth the combine cost, but with full stacks this item is stupidly efficient. 50 MR and 40% as with a BF sword included? O_o
it's really only strong on heroes that have scale with attack speed tho, otherwise there are much better defensive options (obviously)
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United States37500 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:24 taLbuk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:23 gtrsrs wrote:On October 27 2011 03:17 NeoIllusions wrote:
Don't capslock to poke at people, gtr. sorry should i just call him retarded and bad and intent on sowing discord with 90% of his posts being worthless driven instead? i forget what's ok on these forums and what's crossing the line bro i got capslock warning yesterday i feel ya bruh go 2 years with no warnings and get 3 in 1 week from LoL forums
Clicked on "Warn" when I meant to go for "User Info" to see your history.
Almost got your 4th. trololol
But seriously, not that hard to avoid warnings. I do what I can to moderate the subforum, even if you can't see it visibly up front.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:27 taLbuk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:26 TheYango wrote:On October 27 2011 03:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
Terrible argument req. There are 2 types of tourney bans: shit that actually is op, and shit that is annoying but counterable. Talon is the later. Teams just ban him out so they dont need to worry about him. That makes him strong, but not op.
There are other ways to deal with talon as well. udyr with a fast oracles shits on talon in every fight. Same with renek or any tanky dps with some sort of silence or stun. It's not proof, but the fact that he won every game he was in despite being an early pick in most/all of those games is at least somewhat indicative of the fact that he's not 100% straightforward to counter. he was out for like what? 2 weeks than? people know how to deal with talon now (i.e rammus etc) but the real shit people should be scared about is xerath he came out during the beginning of the month packed with back to back tournaments, but now that they are over top players are putting effort into xerath he is scary as shit
Two weeks? More like two months.
Talon patch came out August 24. IEM NY happened the weekend of October 13.
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On October 27 2011 03:17 Requizen wrote:
I also like to think about it this way: If you put him top against someone who shuts him down (Nasus and Irelia were brought up, so was Yorick), you're essentially giving a spot on your team to stop a single champion. While Talon might lose that lane, if he plays smart he won't be terribly too far behind. Once the team fight stage of the game comes around, that counter will be great at stopping Talon.... but not much else. At that point, Talon can still go around bursting your squishies down, who didn't itemize Chain Vest or Armor runes.
High armor (from runes, masteries and cloth) plus sustain absolutely crushes Talon. He can't play smart and end up not too far behind in such a lane. He either gets babysat by his jungler or he loses the lane pretty damn hard against stuff like Irelia or Cho.
But that's not relevant if you don't pick Talon blindly. He can lose lanes hard, but he can also win lanes hard. It sometimes becomes a game of switching lanes 24/7 because the enemy AP can't lane against Talon and Talon can't lane against the enemy bruiser.
On October 27 2011 03:28 gtrsrs wrote:
so i think wit's end needs a slight nerf
i buy it on every champion i jungle with and i think it's retardedly strong
makes tanky dps tankier and do more dps for essentially no cost
recurve = 1050 (+40% AS)
null = 400 (+24 MR)
recipe = 550 (+6 MR, +42 magic damage on hit, +20 MR after 4 hits)
even with 0 stacks i feel like the damage is well worth the combine cost, but with full stacks this item is stupidly efficient. 50 MR and 40% as with a BF sword included? O_o
Yes, Wit's End is extremely good. I thought everyone knew that at least for 2 months now.
You also have to consider that it is a midrange dead end item so it's ok if it's more efficient than base items or big items. It's just a bit too much though, especially with magic damage being the biggest threat during midgame these days.
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EPT
