|
On October 06 2011 05:47 Zenithal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 05:40 Mogwai wrote:
it means flat numbers are good vs. low armor and % numbers are good vs. high armor and that you shouldn't be mixing a lot of flat penetration/reducation with last whisper because they negatively synergize with each other. Wait, so, Brutali will be good if they get no armor, but not good if they get armor. And if they do get armor, the only item I should go for is Last whisper?
essentially, yes.
in actuality, it's not really that simple because you need to way the present vs. the future on this stuff, like, if you can buy a brutalizer before Irelia tanks out, you might be willing to accept that she'll make your brutalizer look stupid later with her 200 armor, but be willing to take that trade off to fuck her up in lane when she's just sitting around 40-50 armor. you also need to figure out if you need to kill the people buying resists. If there's a 300 armor rammus and you're pantheon, maybe you just say fuck it and build brutalizer anyway since you're just going after the 60 armor trist, and leave Rammus up to the rest of your team. There's a science to it all, but actually making the decisions in game tends to boil down to having a good feel for it all.
|
On October 06 2011 05:52 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 05:47 Zenithal wrote:On October 06 2011 05:40 Mogwai wrote:
it means flat numbers are good vs. low armor and % numbers are good vs. high armor and that you shouldn't be mixing a lot of flat penetration/reducation with last whisper because they negatively synergize with each other. Wait, so, Brutali will be good if they get no armor, but not good if they get armor. And if they do get armor, the only item I should go for is Last whisper? essentially, yes. in actuality, it's not really that simple because you need to way the present vs. the future on this stuff, like, if you can buy a brutalizer before Irelia tanks out, you might be willing to accept that she'll make your brutalizer look stupid later with her 200 armor, but be willing to take that trade off to fuck her up in lane when she's just sitting around 40-50 armor. you also need to figure out if you need to kill the people buying resists. If there's a 300 armor rammus and you're pantheon, maybe you just say fuck it and build brutalizer anyway since you're just going after the 60 armor trist, and leave Rammus up to the rest of your team. There's a science to it all, but actually making the decisions in game tends to boil down to having a good feel for it all.
Ya I've been trying to go off the bestw ay to kill carries, and not the tank. Tell it to the rest of the team though lol
|
that depends on your role though. if you're a ranged carry, you need to be able to kill tanks because the nature of ranged carries is such that you just gotta shoot whoever you can hit without exposing yourself, which typically tends to be the tankier opponents.
|
On October 06 2011 05:57 Mogwai wrote:
that depends on your role though. if you're a ranged carry, you need to be able to kill tanks because the nature of ranged carries is such that you just gotta shoot whoever you can hit without exposing yourself, which typically tends to be the tankier opponents.
Is that why Ashe and Vayne generally get Last whisper after their core?
|
Black cleaver is good enough for low elo games.
Or if you're trying to win in a AD carry duel.
but 90% of the time LW is better
|
Mogwai's post shows why most ranged carries should get Last Whisper after a BF item and an attackspeed item.
Black Cleaver is worth it if you're with a bunch of ad guys and you're all going to be hitting the same guy. On these teams some one should suck it up and buy stark's and some one should suck it up and buy black cleaver.
|
That's too complex, and introduces too many variables if someone doesn’t understand the basic concept.
Let's say your job in a teamfight is to kill someone squishy. You're an assassin like Talon, and your job is to bumrush Ashe and kill her. What's the likelihood she has lots of armor? Very little. So if she has 40 armor, and you buy Brutalizer, you’ll be essentially bypassing all of her armor. That means you’ll be dealing true damage.
Now let’s say you’re someone like Caitlyn, and it’s difficult for you to hit people in fights because they have a few really tanky characters like Nasus and Udyr, with 200 armor, that bumrush you. As a result, you right click on them a lot during fights. If you buy a Brutalizer, the flat penetration really won’t do much. Even if you penetrate an extra 20-40 armor, it won’t mean much to your damage. But if you buy a Last Whisper and negate 40% of their armor, that’s noticeable. Black Cleaver only reduces armor by 45. Let’s say you’re running 25 armor penetration in runes.
Cleaver: 200 – 45 - 25 = 130 armor. Still a lot, and you won’t be hurting them much, and it takes time to build those stacks up.
Last Whisper: 200 – (0.4*200) - 25 = 95 armor. Yeah, it’s still a lot of armor, but it’s less, and there’s a noticeable difference if you compare the numbers.
If you think about it, it makes sense. As their armor numbers get higher, % penetration becomes more effective than flat penetration. Make sense now?
edit: my post ended up being more complex I'M THE BEST AT SIMPLIFYING
|
you applied the wrong order on your last whisper equation. Flat first, % last. That's why they don't play well together, otherwise everyone would just get both (and they used to).
|
On October 06 2011 06:03 dnastyx wrote:
That's too complex, and introduces too many variables if someone doesn’t understand the basic concept.
Let's say your job in a teamfight is to kill someone squishy. You're an assassin like Talon, and your job is to bumrush Ashe and kill her. What's the likelihood she has lots of armor? Very little. So if she has 40 armor, and you buy Brutalizer, you’ll be essentially bypassing all of her armor. That means you’ll be dealing true damage.
Now let’s say you’re someone like Caitlyn, and it’s difficult for you to hit people in fights because they have a few really tanky characters like Nasus and Udyr, with 200 armor, that bumrush you. As a result, you right click on them a lot during fights. If you buy a Brutalizer, the flat penetration really won’t do much. Even if you penetrate an extra 20-40 armor, it won’t mean much to your damage. But if you buy a Last Whisper and negate 40% of their armor, that’s noticeable. Black Cleaver only reduces armor by 45. Let’s say you’re running 25 armor penetration in runes.
Cleaver: 200 – 45 - 25 = 130 armor. Still a lot, and you won’t be hurting them much, and it takes time to build those stacks up.
Last Whisper: 200 – (0.4*200) - 25 = 95 armor. Yeah, it’s still a lot of armor, but it’s less, and there’s a noticeable difference if you compare the numbers.
If you think about it, it makes sense. As their armor numbers get higher, % penetration becomes more effective than flat penetration. Make sense now?
I'm just gonna bookmark this post so Mogwai doesn't yell at me anymore >.<
It gets a bit murky at the middling Armor levels, where BC is kinda nice because it might do more than LW and Bruta isn't a huge amount of arpen (60 -100 armor level about), but then they buy 1 more armor item and LW comes out on top. I'd say IE or BT are just much better items for your BFS, and don't bother with BC until you're more comfortable with knowing the distinction.
|
on my smurf I usually just ghostblade SotD Black Cleaver and flat pen/redux their armor by 111, npnp.
my rule of thumb is if my targets are under 100, I invest heavily in flat pen, if they're over 100, I invest in raw stats and then get Void/LW.
|
Is there like a spreadsheet for this? lolz
Like,
~1-50 Brutali
~50-100 BC (+Bruta/ghost)
100+ LW
sound about right?
|
On October 06 2011 06:11 Mogwai wrote:
on my smurf I usually just ghostblade SotD Black Cleaver and flat pen/redux their armor by 111, npnp.
my rule of thumb is if my targets are under 100, I invest heavily in flat pen, if they're over 100, I invest in raw stats and then get Void/LW.
Talon like that... Massive true damage to ALL THE THINGS.
Except the tank.
|
god damn it. the Protoss skin for Xerath is in the double bundle.. i dont find a good reason to buy 2 skins for a champ 
|
On October 06 2011 06:14 Zenithal wrote:
Is there like a spreadsheet for this? lolz
Like,
~1-50 Brutali
~50-100 BC (+Bruta/ghost)
100+ LW
sound about right?
That's not a bad rule, but this is where what Smash said comes into play - sure, that Jarvan might only have 90 armor now, but he's bound to get an Atma's and turn his Heart of Gold into a Randuin's later, and you know he's going to be on your nuts. Better get that Last Whisper.
|
On October 06 2011 06:26 dnastyx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:14 Zenithal wrote:
Is there like a spreadsheet for this? lolz
Like,
~1-50 Brutali
~50-100 BC (+Bruta/ghost)
100+ LW
sound about right? That's not a bad rule, but this is where what Smash said comes into play - sure, that Jarvan might only have 90 armor now, but he's bound to get an Atma's and turn his Heart of Gold into a Randuin's later, and you know he's going to be on your nuts. Better get that Last Whisper.
So when is Black cleaver evn a good idea? The way you guys say it, it feels really "in between" and useless for the gold
|
BC is good on ranged ad champs when you are already rofflestomping your lane and you want to carry your advantage out and close the game fast.
Like I'll get a BC if im 4-0 in lane and have more farm than anyone else in the game so that I know I will be able to scale my ad and pen faster than they can build armor.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
black cleaver is a good idea when you dont give a shit how much armor they have (vayne/corki....thats about it)
|
On October 06 2011 05:47 Zenithal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 05:40 Mogwai wrote:
it means flat numbers are good vs. low armor and % numbers are good vs. high armor and that you shouldn't be mixing a lot of flat penetration/reducation with last whisper because they negatively synergize with each other. Wait, so, Brutali will be good if they get no armor, but not good if they get armor. And if they do get armor, the only item I should go for is Last whisper?
Essentially, yes.
Bruta will be good if they have built armor, just not very good in relation to their effective HP. Flat penetration is calculated before % penetration, so your 40% penetration is reduced by the flat amount of penetration you get. You can still effectively get Bruta on top of BC if their armor isn't exceeding 120 or so by too much, (assuming you are using ArP runes,) but if they're much higher than that you're better off getting LW. This is of course unless you are using a character who can benefit well from getting Ghostblade, Bruta, Starks, and BC for 125 flat armor pen/reduction with runes.
|
Cleaver also very good on champs like noc and shaco who want to 1v1 people a lot.
|
Well played 1 game as Xereth and one against him (as Karthus). Range can be a problem and that combo can hurt squishys in center. It really doesn't matter how many times he misses as once he has his super duper ranged ult he can just wait until he happens to ht that combo then BOOM BOOM BOOM tri ult that either kills you or makes you low and having to back depending on how well he can hit you with it. I have yet to see him get fed and have a super lot of AP and I really don't want to face that lol.
He doesn't seem to be a champ that lower level people suck with but people who are good can bring out his true potential.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
