|
United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:54 UniversalSnip wrote:
but you're talking about ad vs armor pen, that's not really what we're discussing. Obviously as you get more AD armor pen becomes more attractive and vice versa, that's multipliers 101. Doesn't seem relevant.
It IS what we're discussing. The value of any DPS stat is always evaluated as "how good is it compared to every other DPS stat I could be buying?"
Flat penetration is a flat decrease to "time to kill". E.g. regardless of their armor value, the same amount of armor pen takes someone from 15 seconds to kill->10 seconds to kill as 10 seconds to kill->5 seconds to kill. The thing is other DPS stats do not work this way. Other DPS stats have a multiplicative effect on "time to kill"--if you have 100 AD, buying another 100 halves the time it takes to kill someone, regardless of their EHP. If they took 10 seconds to kill before, they'll take 5. If they took 100 seconds to kill before, they'll take 50. At low armor values, flat penetration is strong because flat "time to kill" changes represent a larger multiplicative change in "time to kill" based on DPS stats.
|
i have seen this discussion pop up so many times, can we get this sentence stickied at the top of the forum?
"While armor *technically* does not have diminshing returns in the sense that each point of armor is a flat EHP increase, each point of armor you buy makes buying HP more appealing, and vice versa."
|
I came to this thread to read about Xerath dammit not something I already knew from being posted here like 2000x times 
|
I've been in the loading screen for a game for the past 15 minutes no joke. Everyone's loaded except for one retard sitting at 60%.
I waited 5 mintues, got bored, started watching Hulu. I'm halfway through an episode (23 minutes) already. Real wooden computers.
|
On October 06 2011 07:25 ArC_man wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:08 Requizen wrote:On October 06 2011 06:03 dnastyx wrote:
That's too complex, and introduces too many variables if someone doesn’t understand the basic concept.
Let's say your job in a teamfight is to kill someone squishy. You're an assassin like Talon, and your job is to bumrush Ashe and kill her. What's the likelihood she has lots of armor? Very little. So if she has 40 armor, and you buy Brutalizer, you’ll be essentially bypassing all of her armor. That means you’ll be dealing true damage.
Now let’s say you’re someone like Caitlyn, and it’s difficult for you to hit people in fights because they have a few really tanky characters like Nasus and Udyr, with 200 armor, that bumrush you. As a result, you right click on them a lot during fights. If you buy a Brutalizer, the flat penetration really won’t do much. Even if you penetrate an extra 20-40 armor, it won’t mean much to your damage. But if you buy a Last Whisper and negate 40% of their armor, that’s noticeable. Black Cleaver only reduces armor by 45. Let’s say you’re running 25 armor penetration in runes.
Cleaver: 200 – 45 - 25 = 130 armor. Still a lot, and you won’t be hurting them much, and it takes time to build those stacks up.
Last Whisper: 200 – (0.4*200) - 25 = 95 armor. Yeah, it’s still a lot of armor, but it’s less, and there’s a noticeable difference if you compare the numbers.
If you think about it, it makes sense. As their armor numbers get higher, % penetration becomes more effective than flat penetration. Make sense now?
I'm just gonna bookmark this post so Mogwai doesn't yell at me anymore >.< It gets a bit murky at the middling Armor levels, where BC is kinda nice because it might do more than LW and Bruta isn't a huge amount of arpen (60 -100 armor level about), but then they buy 1 more armor item and LW comes out on top. I'd say IE or BT are just much better items for your BFS, and don't bother with BC until you're more comfortable with knowing the distinction. Except he did the math wrong (as Mogwai already pointed out). Flat penetration applies before percentage penetration so it would be 200 - 25 - 0.4*(200-25) = 105.
whoops you're right. I miss those days. I miss old LW as well, which gave aspd+arpen.
On October 06 2011 07:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
1000 HP, 50 armor. EHP = 1500
1333 HP, 0 armor. EHP = 1333.
If you add 50 armor to both, we can clearly see that armor has diminishing returns.
Do you see the flaw?
The flaw is you even thinking about "diminishing returns."
What's better, reducing 40% of 200 armor? Or reducing 45 from 200 armor?
Or from another perspective, is it better to have 1000 HP with 100 armor? Or 1000 HP with 200 armor?
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EFFECTIVE HP. It's pretty clear that if your target has lower armor you will do more damage to them. It has nothing to do with how much HP they have.
Please explain what EHP has to do with "if the enemy has a smaller amount of armor you will do more damage to them"
|
eh dynasty you didn't follow this
On October 06 2011 08:04 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 07:54 UniversalSnip wrote:
but you're talking about ad vs armor pen, that's not really what we're discussing. Obviously as you get more AD armor pen becomes more attractive and vice versa, that's multipliers 101. Doesn't seem relevant.
It IS what we're discussing. The value of any DPS stat is always evaluated as "how good is it compared to every other DPS stat I could be buying?"
It is not what we're discussing because we're not discussing it's value. We're discussing it's effectiveness, which comprises a portion of it's actual game value. Once you have something's effectiveness pegged then you can go to work on it's value, if you can't just estimate the latter by playing. You absolutely can look at diminishing returns in a static sense, you just have to have the common sense to consider what that means in a larger sense afterwards.
|
Your position in queue: Over 20000
Haven't seen that before O.o
Patch day madness!
|
On October 06 2011 07:18 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 07:16 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 06 2011 07:14 Kenpachi wrote:
ive been debating.. double or single bundle of Xerath?
Double bundle gives me Protoss skin
Single saves me 500 RP why would you buy a skin for a champion you've never played dude hes a protoss siege tank, ive been wanting one for 2 years
LOL! haha... :3 he's an archon with siege mode.
-.- Phreak, another spotlight along the lines of: "I used my abilities to kill him"
|
On October 06 2011 08:18 Azerbaijan wrote:
Your position in queue: Over 20000
Haven't seen that before O.o
Patch day madness!
Let me know if you get in. I went through the queue 3 times now, only to have the server timeout when my turn came about.
|
On October 06 2011 08:11 Ryuu314 wrote:
I've been in the loading screen for a game for the past 15 minutes no joke. Everyone's loaded except for one retard sitting at 60%.
I waited 5 mintues, got bored, started watching Hulu. I'm halfway through an episode (23 minutes) already. Real wooden computers.
Dude you got bugged, everyone else is ingame already, reconnect to that game. Happens sometimes.
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2011 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:eh dynasty you didn't follow this Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 08:04 TheYango wrote:On October 06 2011 07:54 UniversalSnip wrote:
but you're talking about ad vs armor pen, that's not really what we're discussing. Obviously as you get more AD armor pen becomes more attractive and vice versa, that's multipliers 101. Doesn't seem relevant.
It IS what we're discussing. The value of any DPS stat is always evaluated as "how good is it compared to every other DPS stat I could be buying?" It is not what we're discussing because we're not discussing it's value. We're discussing it's effectiveness, which comprises a portion of it's actual game value. Once you have something's effectiveness pegged then you can go to work on it's value, if you can't just estimate the latter by playing. You absolutely can look at diminishing returns in a static sense, you just have to have the common sense to consider what that means in a larger sense afterwards.
You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. The only USEFUL way to evaluate armor penetration is "how much AD/aspd/crit/etc. is this worth to me by comparison", or "given my budget, what item selection allows me to kill the targets I want to kill most quickly". Any other means of applying arbitrary buzzwords like "diminishing returns" have no practical use to you when you're at the shop screen selecting items, so you may as well skip the unnecessary bullshit. Armor pen's value compared to other DPS stats is high at low armor values, and low at high armor values, hence why armor penetration is a less cost-effective buy when you're attacking high armor targets. Any other semantics are irrelevant.
|
You don't think it's worthwhile to know something like the long established armor not having diminishing returns? It's only once you're past that that you can consider armor vs hp in anything but an intuitive way. Same applies.
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2011 08:26 UniversalSnip wrote:
You don't think it's worthwhile to know something like the long established armor not having diminishing returns? It's only once you're past that that you can consider armor vs hp in anything but an intuitive way. Same applies.
Dispelling misconceptions doesn't make the mathcraft any more or less valid. Because if people were actually looking at the mathcraft they wouldn't have those misconceptions in the first place.
|
On October 06 2011 08:21 BloodNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 08:18 Azerbaijan wrote:
Your position in queue: Over 20000
Haven't seen that before O.o
Patch day madness! Let me know if you get in. I went through the queue 3 times now, only to have the server timeout when my turn came about.
Yeah, I went through the queue 5 times, restarted my client, and now the server is busy.
*sigh*
|
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/88Z3p.gif)
Just got my first ever pentakill! So happy. I was Ryze, we were at their nexus and my overload hit Ezreal just after he'd blinked to his fountain's steps.
What a weird game though. Soraka was our last pick. Apparently he looked at our team comp and figured that she was what we needed most.
Edit: hmmm. That timestamp. I think I need a better screencap program.
|
5 skins going on sale, all of them so good, too!
Sadly it's been 3 and a half weeks and I STILL haven't gotten my prize for winning reddit tourney yet.
|
Hey all! Anyone know when these servers going up? been waiting for two hours
|
ad janna didn't carry your opponent hard enough, apparently
|
dat ad janna...
god i hate it when my friends troll norms with ad janna
|
On October 06 2011 08:36 Treadmill wrote:
Edit: hmmm. That timestamp. I think I need a better screencap program.
Print Screen > Open Paint > Ctrl + V > Crop > Save as? Your computer is your screencapper
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
