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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On October 06 2011 06:38 Brees wrote: black cleaver is a good idea when you dont give a shit how much armor they have (vayne/corki....thats about it) Especially as vayne because they're less likely to be stacking armour against you anyways, so LW is wasted. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 06 2011 06:38 Brees wrote: black cleaver is a good idea when you dont give a shit how much armor they have (vayne/corki....thats about it) I was just about to ask this. Does vayne even really need armor penetration all that much? It seems like if she gets a cleaver + pd then she'll be proc'ing her e so much that armor penetration doesn't even really matter. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
Chaox talking to some dude on Skype on stream (I think the guy's from MLG or something) who says something to the point of "i wish there was a teamliquid of LoL". | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
Double bundle gives me Protoss skin Single saves me 500 RP | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On October 06 2011 05:40 Mogwai wrote: it means flat numbers are good vs. low armor and % numbers are good vs. high armor and that you shouldn't be mixing a lot of flat penetration/reducation with last whisper because they negatively synergize with each other. I still don't understand how people figure flat pen is worse mathematically vs high armor targets. We know adding armor doesn't have diminishing returns on EHP but reducing armor somehow does? I mean I agree flat pen is worse in practical terms vs very tanky targets because LW exists, and because if you have the time to kill the raid boss with flat pen you probably had the time to kill them without it. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:14 Kenpachi wrote: ive been debating.. double or single bundle of Xerath? Double bundle gives me Protoss skin Single saves me 500 RP why would you buy a skin for a champion you've never played | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:16 UniversalSnip wrote: why would you buy a skin for a champion you've never played dude hes a protoss siege tank, ive been wanting one for 2 years | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:07 Mogwai wrote: except vs. squishies where you blow them up WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY the fuck faster with a BC. Which is the only thing that really matters on Vayne: Kill the burst casters with stealth + stun + autos before they can kill you. Currently BC seems relatively strong in many games, depending pretty much only on the enemy solo top (stacking armor yes/no?), and whether it is Rammus in the Jungle or not. Remember that Exhaust also reduces Armor by 10 assuming you have the mastery - which you really should. And then there are quite a few champions who add a bit of extra reduction via skills. I really should try some BC Kog'Maw... | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2011 04:43 Zenithal wrote: He said that it was a bad mid-game item though, so I was confused. It has a lot of things she wants, but is kind of expensive, so I wasn't sure if it was worth it instead of just going for B.F. Sword? I didn't say it was a bad mid-game item. I said it was a GOOD midgame item (as is the case with flat pen items)--which is a bad buy on a late-game oriented champion. Brutalizer is strong on midgame champions because it's power curve coincides with theirs--it's strong early on and levels off as the usefulness of the flat pen diminishes. Riven isn't like that though. She outscales the vast majority of the champion pool, so, like Jax, the longer she can be afk-farming, the better. Like, if you get Brutalizer, it's not going to do anything to help you if you're just sitting top and farming for your Bloodthirster--all it'll do is delay that Bloodthirster by 1337 gold. | ||
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ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
On October 06 2011 06:08 Requizen wrote: I'm just gonna bookmark this post so Mogwai doesn't yell at me anymore >.< It gets a bit murky at the middling Armor levels, where BC is kinda nice because it might do more than LW and Bruta isn't a huge amount of arpen (60 -100 armor level about), but then they buy 1 more armor item and LW comes out on top. I'd say IE or BT are just much better items for your BFS, and don't bother with BC until you're more comfortable with knowing the distinction. Except he did the math wrong (as Mogwai already pointed out). Flat penetration applies before percentage penetration so it would be 200 - 25 - 0.4*(200-25) = 105. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:15 UniversalSnip wrote: I still don't understand how people figure flat pen is worse mathematically vs high armor targets. We know adding armor doesn't have diminishing returns on EHP but reducing armor somehow does? I mean I agree flat pen is worse in practical terms vs very tanky targets because LW exists, and because if you have the time to kill the raid boss with flat pen you probably had the time to kill them without it. 1000 HP, 100 armor target - EHP = 2000 If you have 50 armor pen, you reduce that from 2000 Effective Damage to kill to 1500 Effective damage to kill. 1333 HP, 50 armor target. EHP = 2000. (well, 1999. whatever.) If you have 50 armor pen, you reduce that from 2000 effective damage to 1333 effective damage to kill. Flat Armor pen is more effective against low armor targets. | ||
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taLbuk
Madagascar1879 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
1333 HP, 0 armor. EHP = 1333. If you add 50 armor to both, we can clearly see that armor has diminishing returns. Do you see the flaw? | ||
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
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BloodNinja
United States2791 Posts
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red_
United States8474 Posts
What USnip is technically correct, armor has no DR(1 point = 1ehp) and so it goes that arpen is the same in reverse(the only point where there it changes is 99%->100% and 1%->0% which are technically infinite/undefined gains in effectiveness). LW is worth more arpen per gold vs higher armor targets though so obviously it becomes 'better' than flat arpen in the sense that is is just more flat arpen vs higher levels of armor, the same that it is worse when they have 10 armor because 4 arpen is nothing. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:40 UniversalSnip wrote: 1000 HP, 50 armor. EHP = 1500 1333 HP, 0 armor. EHP = 1333. If you add 50 armor to both, we can clearly see that armor has diminishing returns. Do you see the flaw? The flaw is in the words "diminishing returns". It's true if you use it in one sense (i.e. armor adds the same amount of flat ehp for each point of armor you gain at a specific base HP value). It's also false if you use it in another sense (2 options: either look at it as the percentage of ehp you get for each point of armor or look at it at the ehp/gold of armor vs HP, either of which go down at larger armor values). Penetration will give you a larger percentage damage increase per point as the enemy's armor gets closer to 0 after penetration. Similarly, resistances give the largest percentage survivability increase per point as you immediately go up from 0. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:15 UniversalSnip wrote: I still don't understand how people figure flat pen is worse mathematically vs high armor targets. We know adding armor doesn't have diminishing returns on EHP but reducing armor somehow does? I mean I agree flat pen is worse in practical terms vs very tanky targets because LW exists, and because if you have the time to kill the raid boss with flat pen you probably had the time to kill them without it. Flat pen doesn't have diminishing returns on EHP decrease. The difference is how "EHP decreases" interact with how AD actually works. Suppose you do 100 damage per attack and attack once per second with 0 crit chance. Against a target with 1500 HP, you take 15 seconds to kill them. You take 10 seconds to kill a target with 1000 HP, and 5 seconds to kill a target with 500 HP. An armor reduction that takes someone from 1500->1000 makes you kill them 5 seconds faster. This is equivalent to buying 50 AD, as doing 150 damage per hit will also let you kill a 1500 EHP target in 10 seconds. An armor reduction that takes someone from 1000->500 EHP also makes you kill them 5 seconds faster. But to achieve the same effect from buying AD, you'd have to buy 100 AD. You can't look at "diminishing returns" in a static sense, everything is relative to whatever other stats you could buy. This is where the HP/armor diminishing returns argument came about before. While armor *technically* does not have diminshing returns in the sense that each point of armor is a flat EHP increase, each point of armor you buy makes buying HP more appealing, and vice versa. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
edit edit: An armor reduction that takes someone from 1000->500 EHP also makes you kill them 5 seconds faster. But to achieve the same effect from buying AD, you'd have to buy 100 AD. but you're talking about ad vs armor pen, that's not really what we're discussing. Obviously as you get more AD armor pen becomes more attractive and vice versa, that's multipliers 101. Doesn't seem relevant. We already know about raw HP vs armor and so on, that's the groundwork for this discussion. | ||
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