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Pro noc players, lend me your insight:
I recently picked up Noc for jungling and I've played him in a few normal games. The thing that is getting me, though, is his atrocious midgame health. It feels that, unlike other junglers, if you engage too early it is an instant death sentence.
Typical build, cloth+5, boots, wriggles, ghostblade, then banshees/health/whatever is required but gives health.
Typically around picking up a brutalizer is when I'm hurting the most. So, advice for what to do during this time, when I am squishy as fuck?
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On September 01 2011 10:34 chubbly wrote:
Pro noc players, lend me your insight:
I recently picked up Noc for jungling and I've played him in a few normal games. The thing that is getting me, though, is his atrocious midgame health. It feels that, unlike other junglers, if you engage too early it is an instant death sentence.
Typical build, cloth+5, boots, wriggles, ghostblade, then banshees/health/whatever is required but gives health.
Typically around picking up a brutalizer is when I'm hurting the most. So, advice for what to do during this time, when I am squishy as fuck?
I get a heart of gold right after the brutalizer, phage if im doing well.
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I go cloth+5pot or vamp opening.
Wriggles->Boots->HoG->Avarice->Mercs->Ghostblade->tanky. I like getting Banshee's and Randuin's since I already have the HoG and your ult sets you up nicely to use the Randuins active. Not to mention it helps you stick onto the carry. Other items I've seen used are Frozen Mallet and Atmas.
When playing Noc, don't be a fknub and stack stupid shit like BTs and IE. A single IE and/or LW maybe good if you're dominating hardcore, but any more than 2 mayyyybe 3 dps items will make you way to freaking squishy and you blow up every time you ult.
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On September 01 2011 10:34 chubbly wrote:
Pro noc players, lend me your insight:
I recently picked up Noc for jungling and I've played him in a few normal games. The thing that is getting me, though, is his atrocious midgame health. It feels that, unlike other junglers, if you engage too early it is an instant death sentence.
Typical build, cloth+5, boots, wriggles, ghostblade, then banshees/health/whatever is required but gives health.
Typically around picking up a brutalizer is when I'm hurting the most. So, advice for what to do during this, when I am squishy as fuck?
I've actually never encountered that many problems pre-ghostblade when jungling on noc. Have you checked what source of damage is destroying you? And what runes are you running?
I find that the brutalizer pick up time is actually where nocturne's REALLY strong and shows a lot of presence. Especially when that time is around the first dragon anyways.
And like you said, do NOT engage too early or else you will most likely die. Just wait for your tank to initiate before diving in.
EDIT:
I generally go situational boots + wits end + atmogs.
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Further discussion, what are people's thoughts about just hanging around the top area, mainly concentrating on top and mid lane ganks, with some counter jungling thrown in? Unless bot lane is in a particularly grievous position, I feel it costs a lot to attempt a gank there, since it is now two people to fight with your minimal health and Noc suffers a lot from death trying to gank.
Edit to your edit: Doesn't that delay your health a bit too long for the game. Grabbing WE leaves a long gap until a giant's belt from atmogs. I feel he just needs something to shore up that mid game deficit in health, especially when you aren't doing that great.
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On September 01 2011 10:54 chubbly wrote:
Further discussion, what are people's thoughts about just hanging around the top area, mainly concentrating on top and mid lane ganks, with some counter jungling thrown in? Unless bot lane is in a particularly grievous position, I feel it costs a lot to attempt a gank there, since it is now two people to fight with your minimal health and Noc suffers a lot from death trying to gank.
You'll be fighting a support + carry generally.
Put it this way.
Ganking top/mid will most likely be more risky due to the fact that they might have a level advantage.
You should be able to outlevel bot, or at least keep at the same pace as them. And when you do attempt to gank, you will have a support there as well to keep you alive. Plus a successful gank at bottom can sometimes snowball into a successful dragon. Thus giving a even more bonus than ganking top.
EDIT:
By the time I actually get wits end, I generally have 100+/100+ armor/mres. I feel like that's more than sufficient for my to tank while being able to dish out damage.
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Baa?21248 Posts
Wriggles/Boots/HoG is the ideal remedy for Nocturne's low health IMO.
Then pick up Brutalizer for massive deepz, or just build the Avarice Blade for more GP5.
Sometimes I just skip Ghostblade, leave it as Bruta, and then go for BVeil/Atmas/other defensive crap as needed.
1400 advice, YMMV.
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The best part about ganking bottom is if it works you can guarantee yourself a dragon or tower half the time giving your team a huge advantage. If you gank top you can take the tower, but if the enemy jungler is smart he'll take dragon while you take the tower (although I rarely see either of these happen at my ELO).
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United States47024 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:54 chubbly wrote:
Further discussion, what are people's thoughts about just hanging around the top area, mainly concentrating on top and mid lane ganks, with some counter jungling thrown in? Unless bot lane is in a particularly grievous position, I feel it costs a lot to attempt a gank there, since it is now two people to fight with your minimal health and Noc suffers a lot from death trying to gank.
Edit to your edit: Doesn't that delay your health a bit too long for the game. Grabbing WE leaves a long gap until a giant's belt from atmogs. I feel he just needs something to shore up that mid game deficit in health, especially when you aren't doing that great.
Like with any other jungler, you need to devote your ganking depending on how much it will help the lanes in question, Particularly if bot lane is losing, you need to be able to maintain some presence there, because otherwise, you showing up top lane will give the opponents a free Dragon if bot lane is not strong enough to contest (this problem is exacerbated in solo queue, when the bot lane may STILL try to contest, despite not being strong enough to do so, and end up feeding 2 kills and potentially bot tower in addition to the Dragon).
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Hmm..
What do you guys think of Manamune+Archangel Ezreal?
I played a game with him and ended up with a TF, Manamune, AA, Deathcap, and CDR Boosts.
I did get pretty fed and it wouldn't exactly be good in high level play, but it was hella fun :D
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United States47024 Posts
On September 01 2011 11:04 Jaso wrote:
Hmm..
What do you guys think of Manamune+Archangel Ezreal?
I played a game with him and ended up with a TF, Manamune, AA, Deathcap, and CDR Boosts.
I did get pretty fed and it wouldn't exactly be good in high level play, but it was hella fun :D
Where do people get the idea that Ezreal needs max mana?
Your only spammy skill is Q. W shouldn't be leveled more than once, and thus is only really useful for maintaining passive stacks, and E should be held in reserve for cleanup/escaping/kiting. You really have no need for the deep mana pool that Manamune or AA gives. You need some regen for sustainable Q poke, but that's easily handled with runes.
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On September 01 2011 11:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 11:04 Jaso wrote:
Hmm..
What do you guys think of Manamune+Archangel Ezreal?
I played a game with him and ended up with a TF, Manamune, AA, Deathcap, and CDR Boosts.
I did get pretty fed and it wouldn't exactly be good in high level play, but it was hella fun :D Where do people get the idea that Ezreal needs max mana? Your only spammy skill is Q. W shouldn't be leveled more than once, and thus is only really useful for maintaining stacks, and E should be held in reserve for cleanup/escaping/kiting. You really have no need for the deep mana pool that Manamune or AA gives. You need some regen for sustainable Q poke, but that's easily handled with runes.
or with tiamats.
^_^
But yeah, a Sheen is all you need for pew pews
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re: nocturne
getting a hog really helps with his squishiness
i generally get both hog and avarice blade before bruta unless i feel a teamfight is imminent and the bruta item components or the item itself will be much more useful than the crit blade
i think that phase of the game should be nocturne counterjungling and farming up while ganking when available, leaving your jungle unattended is =(
if you can finish youmuu's you almost always should because its such a util + deeps item, but that lull inbetween when you are always full hp due to wriggles and there's always something to do on the map is pretty nice to have gp5 on ;p
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On September 01 2011 10:34 chubbly wrote:
Pro noc players, lend me your insight:
I recently picked up Noc for jungling and I've played him in a few normal games. The thing that is getting me, though, is his atrocious midgame health. It feels that, unlike other junglers, if you engage too early it is an instant death sentence.
Typical build, cloth+5, boots, wriggles, ghostblade, then banshees/health/whatever is required but gives health.
Typically around picking up a brutalizer is when I'm hurting the most. So, advice for what to do during this time, when I am squishy as fuck?
If you have that problem, stop rushing ghostblade.
Wriggles -> HoG -> Boots = core.
You're stomping and no big teamfights coming? Get bruta / GB.
You're even/behind and preparing for a longer game? Giants Belt.
Warmogs - > Atmas -> Ghostblade and a Negatron whenever you need one.
Beats rushing Ghostblade a lot of the time imo. =P
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On September 01 2011 11:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:54 chubbly wrote:
Further discussion, what are people's thoughts about just hanging around the top area, mainly concentrating on top and mid lane ganks, with some counter jungling thrown in? Unless bot lane is in a particularly grievous position, I feel it costs a lot to attempt a gank there, since it is now two people to fight with your minimal health and Noc suffers a lot from death trying to gank.
Edit to your edit: Doesn't that delay your health a bit too long for the game. Grabbing WE leaves a long gap until a giant's belt from atmogs. I feel he just needs something to shore up that mid game deficit in health, especially when you aren't doing that great. Like with any other jungler, you need to devote your ganking depending on how much it will help the lanes in question, Particularly if bot lane is losing, you need to be able to maintain some presence there, because otherwise, you showing up top lane will give the opponents a free Dragon if bot lane is not strong enough to contest (this problem is exacerbated in solo queue, when the bot lane may STILL try to contest, despite not being strong enough to do so, and end up feeding 2 kills and potentially bot tower in addition to the Dragon).
To give you an example of where I'm going with this, I was jungling and had Corki/janna lane vs their Garen/taric. Corki/Janna were getting rolled but I felt that is was a dangerous proposition to try even the chances by attempting a gank there. I did try after my first clear (delayed after I ventured into their jungle and found their low health jungler but not managing to to kill him) but died to the combo because none of us in the lane could initiate the fight. That is my point really, that Noc isn't the type of jungler who barrels into the lane to initiate the fight because he has such low health.
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Been playing LoL a ton more than Sc2 find it hard to actually get the desire to load up an sc2 game nowadays, anyone else get this when they first started in LoL?
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On September 01 2011 11:17 chubbly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 11:03 TheYango wrote:On September 01 2011 10:54 chubbly wrote:
Further discussion, what are people's thoughts about just hanging around the top area, mainly concentrating on top and mid lane ganks, with some counter jungling thrown in? Unless bot lane is in a particularly grievous position, I feel it costs a lot to attempt a gank there, since it is now two people to fight with your minimal health and Noc suffers a lot from death trying to gank.
Edit to your edit: Doesn't that delay your health a bit too long for the game. Grabbing WE leaves a long gap until a giant's belt from atmogs. I feel he just needs something to shore up that mid game deficit in health, especially when you aren't doing that great. Like with any other jungler, you need to devote your ganking depending on how much it will help the lanes in question, Particularly if bot lane is losing, you need to be able to maintain some presence there, because otherwise, you showing up top lane will give the opponents a free Dragon if bot lane is not strong enough to contest (this problem is exacerbated in solo queue, when the bot lane may STILL try to contest, despite not being strong enough to do so, and end up feeding 2 kills and potentially bot tower in addition to the Dragon). To give you an example of where I'm going with this, I was jungling and had Corki/janna lane vs their Garen/taric. Corki/Janna were getting rolled but I felt that is was a dangerous proposition to try even the chances by attempting a gank there. I did try after my first clear (delayed after I ventured into their jungle and found their low health jungler but not managing to to kill him) but died to the combo because none of us in the lane could initiate the fight. That is my point really, that Noc isn't the type of jungler who barrels into the lane to initiate the fight because he has such low health.
I remember reading the same exact senario.
Don't try to gank taric/garen as nocturne. Not worth it. Unless perfect senario goes like this. You go in, block taric's stun and fear garen. Garen will obviously be spinning while doing this. Soraka heals you for armor buff so basically garen does nothing to you. Ashe follows up deeps on one of them. The enemy WILL have to expend summoners or else they die. Your gank was semi-successful. I honestly don't see bot lane killing those two.
EDIT:
I totally didn't see Corki Janna bot lane. I somehow comprehended it as Ashe Soraka. If it's corki janna, I wouldn't ganking bottom. 2risky2die.
On September 01 2011 11:18 esotericc wrote:
Been playing LoL a ton more than Sc2 find it hard to actually get the desire to load up an sc2 game nowadays, anyone else get this when they first started in LoL?
Psyonic's been playing lotsoLoL
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United States47024 Posts
One thing to consider when deciding which Ghostblade component to get first is the current armor on your primary targets (AD and AP carries). You have to actually need the ArPen from Brutalizer to really get good mileage out of buying it before Avarice Blade--CDR isn't hugely gamechanging on Nocturne, and because you already get AD from Wriggle's and Q, crit is actually a better damage stat for you than plain AD. You have to be benefitting from the ArPen for it to be worth delaying the Avarice Blade gp5.
On September 01 2011 11:17 chubbly wrote:
To give you an example of where I'm going with this, I was jungling and had Corki/janna lane vs their Garen/taric. Corki/Janna were getting rolled but I felt that is was a dangerous proposition to try even the chances by attempting a gank there. I did try after my first clear (delayed after I ventured into their jungle and found their low health jungler but not managing to to kill him) but died to the combo because none of us in the lane could initiate the fight. That is my point really, that Noc isn't the type of jungler who barrels into the lane to initiate the fight because he has such low health.
There's still a big difference between "don't gank overzealously bot lane" and "abandon bot lane and only gank mid and top".
You have to maintain your presence there if the lane is having trouble. This can mean just ganking lightly to put a little damage on the lane (not like Taric/Garen is going to be able to straight up turn around and kill you when you have W to block Taric stun--as long as you don't straight up WALK INTO their combo, you shouldn't die), or being ready to countergank if you see their jungler setting up to dive.
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i'm in the saintvicious camp of always getting wriggles ghostblade on dps jungles unless there's some special situation that begs for a different build.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 01 2011 11:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i'm in the saintvicious camp of always getting wriggles ghostblade on dps jungles unless there's some special situation that begs for a different build.
Which champs do you consider "DPS jungles"? Because the only 2 junglers I can think that's applicable to are Nocturne and Yi.
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EPT
