EPT[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 140
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On September 06 2011 11:59 phyvo wrote: It's hard to do that because items like Deathcap, IE, and multiplicative stats like penetration, crit, etc all encourage you to heap farm on one of the duo players (not to mention that big items are more efficient than smaller ones). If you lane two pairs, four identical champions against each other the ones that split farm will do less damage for most of the game. The only exception is right before rabadon's is done (for AP stacking) and late late game when the carry no longer gets much benefit from farm. The only other weakness of farm splitting is if the support needs farm just to not die or if the carry dies too easily. edit herpaderp bolded correction I feel quite stupid, went to bed after saying the exact opposite of what I meant to say. Fixt now. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:10 Southlight wrote: You're right, it's a misconception. Also is currently the norm because it's easy to heap responsibility for wards and such on one person, and it's hard to swallow ego and share farm. Otherwise there's no real difference of sorts. And then the best players have to play supports, ward the whole map and never even take a single cs or kill. It's sad. On September 06 2011 11:59 phyvo wrote: not to mention that big items are more efficient than smaller ones Huge misconception. Many 1000-2500 gold items are incredibly efficient: Aegis of the Legion Wit's End Wriggle's Lantern The Brutalizer Sheen Guinsoo's Rageblade Will of the Ancients Those items are extremely strong considering how early you can get them. Big defense items generally are rather inefficient, with Warmog's being the biggest exception. Deathcap, Gunblade and Infinity Edge definitely are very efficient, more so than the list above? Debatable. On September 06 2011 14:16 Two_DoWn wrote: Good rant, but 1v2 bruiser vs ad carry/support bot doesnt really work. At least, not well enough to keep the roam meta alive in the roam vs ad/support a while back. Not to say the rest of it isnt good, but because of the changes riot has made, running a 1v2 is EXTREMELY hard to pull off without failing miserably. Plus not having drag control kinda sucks. As far as I can see, 1-1-2+jungle is going to be the superior lane simply because any set up that isnt 1-1-2+j is going to be at a tremendous disadvantage. That doesnt mean that the champions and their spots need to be set in stone like they are currently. How do you lose Dragon control with a roamer? Quite obviously the roamer will focus on mid and bottom. Ideally invading the enemy bottom jungle together/in coordination with his jungler. The enemy mid and jungle will be under pressure and lose some Dragon control. Same for your bottom, of course. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
A buddy of mine and me wanted to know how easy gold is in 3v3s. We grabbed +1 random dude from LP and went 10-1. Tried to go to plat but fucked up, 10-4 total now 1529 elo, real pro gold. The first run took like less than 4h. THATS HOW HARD IT IS TO GET THE JARVAN SKIN. BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRAID. (no one of us had a clue how to play 3v3 and none of us bothered to count buff timers, trollol) | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
blah blah, discussion about metagame, blah blah Riot could force supports to require farm in order to be useful which would make a lane have to split farm in order to be effective. It's important to remember that if both teams have to split farm and therefore each of the four champs is performing sub-optimally* then it balances out. Therefore, increasing the dependence on farm of supports will encourage players to split farm in a lane more. The problem with this is Riot went ahead and made supports relatively farm-independent to encourage them to purchase the "support" items, such as wards and oracles. However, diluting "ward duty" from the supports job to everyone's job could mean there are less wards purchased during the laning phase (because the support now needs that money to be effective, so either they or the carry has to buy it, which hurts them in much a similar way as top or mid buying wards) which could open the lane up to more jungle ganks, which may or may not increase overall aggression in the game, or force more passivity because the jungle is now hidden, but that's a whole different debate which has it's own thread already. Removing the G/10 stat may also help this, as they further enable supports to get by without farm. I've had games as Leona with philostone and HoG where I've gotten 0 kills (only assists) and finished thegame with less than 15cs and had more total gold earned than our carry, and yes we won this game. This stat only really serves to enhance the problem which is inherently responsible for the current meta. * Personally, I hate this term, every champion performs better with more farm, therefore all champions perform sub-optimally without farm or with less farm, even the supports. That being said, I understand the concept that carries benefit from farm much more than a support does (power to gold earned ratio is much higher) but that doesn't mean the support is not gimping themselves in some way. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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RetZ
Australia67 Posts
On September 06 2011 21:28 STS17 wrote: Riot could force supports to require farm in order to be useful which would make a lane have to split farm in order to be effective. It's important to remember that if both teams have to split farm and therefore each of the four champs is performing sub-optimally* then it balances out. Therefore, increasing the dependence on farm of supports will encourage players to split farm in a lane more. The problem with this is Riot went ahead and made supports relatively farm-independent to encourage them to purchase the "support" items, such as wards and oracles. However, diluting "ward duty" from the supports job to everyone's job could mean there are less wards purchased during the laning phase (because the support now needs that money to be effective, so either they or the carry has to buy it, which hurts them in much a similar way as top or mid buying wards) which could open the lane up to more jungle ganks, which may or may not increase overall aggression in the game, or force more passivity because the jungle is now hidden, but that's a whole different debate which has it's own thread already. Removing the G/10 stat may also help this, as they further enable supports to get by without farm. I've had games as Leona with philostone and HoG where I've gotten 0 kills (only assists) and finished thegame with less than 15cs and had more total gold earned than our carry, and yes we won this game. This stat only really serves to enhance the problem which is inherently responsible for the current meta. * Personally, I hate this term, every champion performs better with more farm, therefore all champions perform sub-optimally without farm or with less farm, even the supports. That being said, I understand the concept that carries benefit from farm much more than a support does (power to gold earned ratio is much higher) but that doesn't mean the support is not gimping themselves in some way. How do you require a support like janna to farm to be useful? If you remove G/10 people won't find new ways to fit leona/other supports that need gold into team comps, they'll just use the supports that don't need any gold to do their job. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
![[image loading]](http://uppix.com/f-annierape4e661e9e000d080d.png) Btw, low lvl normals, farm is useless, kills reward enough... | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On September 06 2011 22:16 RetZ wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2011 21:28 STS17 wrote: Riot could force supports to require farm in order to be useful which would make a lane have to split farm in order to be effective. It's important to remember that if both teams have to split farm and therefore each of the four champs is performing sub-optimally* then it balances out. Therefore, increasing the dependence on farm of supports will encourage players to split farm in a lane more. The problem with this is Riot went ahead and made supports relatively farm-independent to encourage them to purchase the "support" items, such as wards and oracles. However, diluting "ward duty" from the supports job to everyone's job could mean there are less wards purchased during the laning phase (because the support now needs that money to be effective, so either they or the carry has to buy it, which hurts them in much a similar way as top or mid buying wards) which could open the lane up to more jungle ganks, which may or may not increase overall aggression in the game, or force more passivity because the jungle is now hidden, but that's a whole different debate which has it's own thread already. Removing the G/10 stat may also help this, as they further enable supports to get by without farm. I've had games as Leona with philostone and HoG where I've gotten 0 kills (only assists) and finished thegame with less than 15cs and had more total gold earned than our carry, and yes we won this game. This stat only really serves to enhance the problem which is inherently responsible for the current meta. * Personally, I hate this term, every champion performs better with more farm, therefore all champions perform sub-optimally without farm or with less farm, even the supports. That being said, I understand the concept that carries benefit from farm much more than a support does (power to gold earned ratio is much higher) but that doesn't mean the support is not gimping themselves in some way. How do you require a support like janna to farm to be useful? If you remove G/10 people won't find new ways to fit leona/other supports that need gold into team comps, they'll just use the supports that don't need any gold to do their job. Worsen CD on shield, increase AP ratio, reduce CD on her other spells. Boom, requires CD and/or AP to be useful. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 06 2011 22:40 Southlight wrote: Worsen CD on shield, increase AP ratio, reduce CD on her other spells. Boom, requires CD and/or AP to be useful. No she won't require CD or AP o.O What kind of logic is that. Maybe she'll be OP with AP but she won't be useless without | ||
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Orpheos
United States1663 Posts
On September 06 2011 20:10 spinesheath wrote: And then the best players have to play supports, ward the whole map and never even take a single cs or kill. It's sad. Huge misconception. Many 1000-2500 gold items are incredibly efficient: Aegis of the Legion Wit's End Wriggle's Lantern The Brutalizer Sheen Guinsoo's Rageblade Will of the Ancients Those items are extremely strong considering how early you can get them. Big defense items generally are rather inefficient, with Warmog's being the biggest exception. Deathcap, Gunblade and Infinity Edge definitely are very efficient, more so than the list above? Debatable. How do you lose Dragon control with a roamer? Quite obviously the roamer will focus on mid and bottom. Ideally invading the enemy bottom jungle together/in coordination with his jungler. The enemy mid and jungle will be under pressure and lose some Dragon control. Same for your bottom, of course. I think the difference between many of the large items vs small items is more about number of item slots in the endgame and unique passives like bveil, dcap, iedge | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
The only issue is that the last time Riot tried a hero like this they created Karma (nuker), Morgana (nuker), and Orianna (nuker), so you'd have to really tinker with her non-support spells. But fortunately Janna's the BEST example of a hero that can benefit from a mechanism like this because her spells are by design not really based on AP ratio (as they're mostly about CC). | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
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crate
United States2474 Posts
On September 06 2011 23:10 Southlight wrote: I said increased. As in increase the cooldown on Q and W to like 20 each. Make it necessary to buy CDR. Basically what they did to Alistar's Q and W, although the CDR per level base kinda messes him up in this comparison. On September 06 2011 22:40 Southlight wrote: Worsen CD on shield, increase AP ratio, reduce CD on her other spells. Boom, requires CD and/or AP to be useful. Perhaps now the confusion is clear. | ||
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NightWalks
Latvia252 Posts
Moonbear, why doesn't riot force eject people who are AFK at champ select and don't pick a champion? This . @Moonbear and rest of TL to discuss : Do you think it's correct that when summoner DC's BOTH sides receive announcement ? This promotes free pushes / dragons / dives etc etc and puts the side with unfortunate DC in even bigger disadvantage. If enemy doesn't know you are missing a player you still have time to defend until said sumoner reconnects and you can continue game normally. Now if I see 5minutes into game that enemy jungler DC's ... we just push the shit out of unfortunate enemy team and game experience is crippled for both sides ( I suppose IP farmers are happy ) | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On September 06 2011 23:12 crate wrote: Perhaps now the confusion is clear. I feel so dyslexic these days. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
On September 06 2011 23:12 NightWalks wrote: @Moonbear and rest of TL to discuss : Do you think it's correct that when summoner DC's BOTH sides receive announcement ? This promotes free pushes / dragons / dives etc etc and puts the side with unfortunate DC in even bigger disadvantage. If enemy doesn't know you are missing a player you still have time to defend until said sumoner reconnects and you can continue game normally. Now if I see 5minutes into game that enemy jungler DC's ... we just push the shit out of unfortunate enemy team and game experience is crippled for both sides ( I suppose IP farmers are happy ) It's a great indea indeed. I've won quite a few games thanks to this, it always feels cheaty. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On September 06 2011 22:40 Southlight wrote: Worsen CD on shield, increase AP ratio, reduce CD on her other spells. Boom, requires CD and/or AP to be useful. Scaling CC. Knockup duration scaling with AP, Slow % scaling with AP... stuff like that. Scaling CC is completely unexplored in LoL so far. Well except for Randuin's. BTW: WE NEED SMARTCAST FOR ITEMS | ||
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