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On September 06 2011 10:10 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 09:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On September 06 2011 07:01 iChau wrote:On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
1- I read quite a lot of times that current metagame is boring, that we should put 2 AP bot and AD carries mid. How viable is this style ? I mean, AP nowadays take mid to have good farming, and a sololane makes them lvl faster. In a duo lane, they might lack some AP, etc ?
AP Carry Mid - because AP carries rely on levels much more than farm. AD Carry + Support Bot - because AD carries rely on farm much more than levels, and supports provide lane sustainability and they can babysit the AD carry. Tanky DPS/AP (ex: Chogath, Nasus) who needs farm, Top. Im convinced this is a bit of a misconception. The right ad carry can use mid just as effectively as an ap carry, some even more so. Trist and corki both scale incredibly well with levels, and make mid essentially ungankable. And puting the right ap carry/support bot has the potential to completely zone out the enemy team. How is anyone going to farm against taric brand? You move forward, you die. You're right, it's a misconception. Also is currently the norm because it's easy to heap responsibility for wards and such on one person, and it's hard to swallow ego and share farm. Otherwise there's no real difference of sorts.
Thats actually a good point. The heap all bot lane farm on 1 person works currently because no one has figured out a good way to split farm. It may turn out that there is no better way, but currently no one is even trying new things out.
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On September 06 2011 10:29 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:10 Southlight wrote:On September 06 2011 09:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On September 06 2011 07:01 iChau wrote:On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
1- I read quite a lot of times that current metagame is boring, that we should put 2 AP bot and AD carries mid. How viable is this style ? I mean, AP nowadays take mid to have good farming, and a sololane makes them lvl faster. In a duo lane, they might lack some AP, etc ?
AP Carry Mid - because AP carries rely on levels much more than farm. AD Carry + Support Bot - because AD carries rely on farm much more than levels, and supports provide lane sustainability and they can babysit the AD carry. Tanky DPS/AP (ex: Chogath, Nasus) who needs farm, Top. Im convinced this is a bit of a misconception. The right ad carry can use mid just as effectively as an ap carry, some even more so. Trist and corki both scale incredibly well with levels, and make mid essentially ungankable. And puting the right ap carry/support bot has the potential to completely zone out the enemy team. How is anyone going to farm against taric brand? You move forward, you die. You're right, it's a misconception. Also is currently the norm because it's easy to heap responsibility for wards and such on one person, and it's hard to swallow ego and share farm. Otherwise there's no real difference of sorts. Thats actually a good point. The heap all bot lane farm on 1 person works currently because no one has figured out a good way to split farm. It may turn out that there is no better way, but currently no one is even trying new things out.
Well the thing is there really aren't any champions that are farm independent except supports, which means that splitting farm between two people generally results in 2 champs on your team performing sub-par.
Although that's not to say there aren't champs who could live with half as much farm. Lanes like Ali+Blitz and such have pretty strong laning potential and also don't require much farm to be useful.
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On September 06 2011 10:36 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:29 Two_DoWn wrote:On September 06 2011 10:10 Southlight wrote:On September 06 2011 09:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On September 06 2011 07:01 iChau wrote:On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
1- I read quite a lot of times that current metagame is boring, that we should put 2 AP bot and AD carries mid. How viable is this style ? I mean, AP nowadays take mid to have good farming, and a sololane makes them lvl faster. In a duo lane, they might lack some AP, etc ?
AP Carry Mid - because AP carries rely on levels much more than farm. AD Carry + Support Bot - because AD carries rely on farm much more than levels, and supports provide lane sustainability and they can babysit the AD carry. Tanky DPS/AP (ex: Chogath, Nasus) who needs farm, Top. Im convinced this is a bit of a misconception. The right ad carry can use mid just as effectively as an ap carry, some even more so. Trist and corki both scale incredibly well with levels, and make mid essentially ungankable. And puting the right ap carry/support bot has the potential to completely zone out the enemy team. How is anyone going to farm against taric brand? You move forward, you die. You're right, it's a misconception. Also is currently the norm because it's easy to heap responsibility for wards and such on one person, and it's hard to swallow ego and share farm. Otherwise there's no real difference of sorts. Thats actually a good point. The heap all bot lane farm on 1 person works currently because no one has figured out a good way to split farm. It may turn out that there is no better way, but currently no one is even trying new things out. Well the thing is there really aren't any champions that are farm independent except supports, which means that splitting farm between two people generally results in 2 champs on your team performing sub-par. Although that's not to say there aren't champs who could live with half as much farm. Lanes like Ali+Blitz and such have pretty strong laning potential and also don't require much farm to be useful.
At the moment, that is the case. However, what is to say that there are no item/farm/champion combinations that pull off better effectiveness? People dont bother trying.
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with my noob squad i've found sion + taric in bot or Soraka + Brand and it does very well against most of the support + ranged ad combos we run into. Alistar + Blitz can be fun too but doesnt seem to work well against good players that rarely make positioning mistakes.
Also agree with trist being a beast in mid. I've been playing her 0/21/9, tp + ignite, flat ad reds, 6 flat ad yellow 3 armor yellows, mp5pl blues , and doran blade opener. @ lvl 1 you have like 725 hp, and 70 AD which is pretty scary to deal with. Harassing with W+E in the early levels you can trade with pretty much anyone and come out ahead as long as you aren't retarded about managing minion agro. If you dont have a kill by lvl 6 you can buy real quick, tp back mid, and unload a full combo with ignite that a lot of people underestimate the damage of. I don't play in super tryhard elo very much anymore but I've been beating a lot of people that I know are better players than me so I think this build has some potential.
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On September 06 2011 10:50 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On September 06 2011 10:29 Two_DoWn wrote:On September 06 2011 10:10 Southlight wrote:On September 06 2011 09:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On September 06 2011 07:01 iChau wrote:On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
1- I read quite a lot of times that current metagame is boring, that we should put 2 AP bot and AD carries mid. How viable is this style ? I mean, AP nowadays take mid to have good farming, and a sololane makes them lvl faster. In a duo lane, they might lack some AP, etc ?
AP Carry Mid - because AP carries rely on levels much more than farm. AD Carry + Support Bot - because AD carries rely on farm much more than levels, and supports provide lane sustainability and they can babysit the AD carry. Tanky DPS/AP (ex: Chogath, Nasus) who needs farm, Top. Im convinced this is a bit of a misconception. The right ad carry can use mid just as effectively as an ap carry, some even more so. Trist and corki both scale incredibly well with levels, and make mid essentially ungankable. And puting the right ap carry/support bot has the potential to completely zone out the enemy team. How is anyone going to farm against taric brand? You move forward, you die. You're right, it's a misconception. Also is currently the norm because it's easy to heap responsibility for wards and such on one person, and it's hard to swallow ego and share farm. Otherwise there's no real difference of sorts. Thats actually a good point. The heap all bot lane farm on 1 person works currently because no one has figured out a good way to split farm. It may turn out that there is no better way, but currently no one is even trying new things out. Well the thing is there really aren't any champions that are farm independent except supports, which means that splitting farm between two people generally results in 2 champs on your team performing sub-par. Although that's not to say there aren't champs who could live with half as much farm. Lanes like Ali+Blitz and such have pretty strong laning potential and also don't require much farm to be useful. At the moment, that is the case. However, what is to say that there are no item/farm/champion combinations that pull off better effectiveness? People dont bother trying.
It's hard to do that because items like Deathcap, IE, and multiplicative stats like penetration, crit, etc all encourage you to heap farm on one of the duo players (not to mention that big items are more efficient than smaller ones). If you lane two pairs, four identical champions against each other the ones that split farm will do less damage for most of the game. The only exception is right before rabadon's is done (for ap stacking) and late late game when the carry no longer gets much benefit from farm.
The only other weakness of farm splitting is if the support needs farm just to not die or if the carry dies too easily.
edit herpaderp bolded correction
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:10 Southlight wrote:
You're right, it's a misconception. Also is currently the norm because it's easy to heap responsibility for wards and such on one person, and it's hard to swallow ego and share farm. Otherwise there's no real difference of sorts.
I don't think it's an ego thing. The fact that all offensive and defensive stats are multiplicative supports the logic that if you have 2 people in a duo lane, 1 of them getting all the farm is superior to splitting the farm (1 person getting IE is superior to 2 people each getting BF Swords).
A couple noteworthy things about this assumption though:
1) AP casters don't benefit as much from this multiplicative scaling--the only multiplicative offensive stats available to casters are AP, CDR, MPen, and DCap's %-AP increase. CDR is capped by blue buff, and flat MPen is under-itemized, so as long as your AP carry gets his DCap as fast as possible and his Void Staff when needed, any additional gold only scales your damage linearly. This could support the case for a 2x AP duo lane, because so long as they can both get their Deathcap off split-farm, they're not any worse off than if only 1 person got farm.
2) Comparisons of multiplicative offensive/defensive stats do not account for hard-to-quantify utility (earlier Oracles, item actives, Tenacity, etc.), or the raw cost-effectiveness of aura items. The strength of items like Soul Shroud, Aegis, and WotA could potentially outweigh the benefits of a single person's farm in a duo lane simply because of how much free gold value comes from the aura.
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Honestly I think Corki can effectively be in any lane. Corki can obvious go bot with a support, but can hold his own, especially post 6 at mid. I think he has the pure damage to beat many champs top as well.
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On September 06 2011 10:10 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 09:59 Two_DoWn wrote:On September 06 2011 07:01 iChau wrote:On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
1- I read quite a lot of times that current metagame is boring, that we should put 2 AP bot and AD carries mid. How viable is this style ? I mean, AP nowadays take mid to have good farming, and a sololane makes them lvl faster. In a duo lane, they might lack some AP, etc ?
AP Carry Mid - because AP carries rely on levels much more than farm. AD Carry + Support Bot - because AD carries rely on farm much more than levels, and supports provide lane sustainability and they can babysit the AD carry. Tanky DPS/AP (ex: Chogath, Nasus) who needs farm, Top. Im convinced this is a bit of a misconception. The right ad carry can use mid just as effectively as an ap carry, some even more so. Trist and corki both scale incredibly well with levels, and make mid essentially ungankable. And puting the right ap carry/support bot has the potential to completely zone out the enemy team. How is anyone going to farm against taric brand? You move forward, you die. You're right, it's a misconception. Also is currently the norm because it's easy to heap responsibility for wards and such on one person, and it's hard to swallow ego and share farm. Otherwise there's no real difference of sorts.
It is not a complete misconception imo. ap carries are just much better laners. And controling the middle is fucking important. You want somone there who can push lanes very fast if they have to, which is what all the common ap carries can do very well. Corki is a good counterexample (dunno about trist though) because he is somewhat of a in-between thing same for urgot. Those are champs that can burst/poke way better than other ad carries and potentially push their lanes very fast. But a vayne? ashe? cait? Dunno if they hold a lane that well against what you see mid these days.
Also most ap carries bring some kind of burst and AoE to the table which is often more impactfull than sustained damage. Sustained ad damage also comes much more from items than from levels and the ability based magic damage is very level depedand.
I mean this is no dogma or sth but it certainly makes sense that you see this lineup so often. In a very general way it is the most solid thing to do.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2011 12:21 clickrush wrote:
It is not a complete misconception imo. ap carries are just much better laners. And controling the middle is fucking important. You want somone there who can push lanes very fast if they have to, which is what all the common ap carries can do very well. Corki is a good counterexample (dunno about trist though) because he is somewhat of a in-between thing same for urgot. Those are champs that can burst/poke way better than other ad carries and potentially push their lanes very fast. But a vayne? ashe? cait? Dunno if they hold a lane that well against what you see mid these days.
Cait was considered one of the best solo laners in the game before this AD-must-go-bottom crap started. She probably still is. She has great creep control, great zoning with traps, long range poke, and very reasonable burst with passive auto->Q->R.
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Trist has burst comparable to an ap carry once she hits 6. And rocket jump is a super godly way to ensure you never get ganked for a kill. Cait is an excellent laner as well, as is ez.
We are now in the opposite spot to where we were 3 months ago- then people wouldnt try ad bot, now they wont try them mid. The inertia in this game is INCREDIBLE, made all the worse by the millions of players who think they know everything and will not stand for any experimentation unless HSGG did it first.
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went 7-5 in 5s but ended up 7 points below where i started from
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Is the patched delayed till next week?
I've been hearing this all over solo ranked.
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Saint super drunk right now. And super funny. Odd how the two tend to go hand in hand.
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yay more time to get gold!
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On September 06 2011 13:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
Saint super drunk right now. And super funny. Odd how the two tend to go hand in hand.
SV real alcoholic.
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On September 06 2011 13:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
Saint super drunk right now. And super funny. Odd how the two tend to go hand in hand.
Its fucking hysterical.
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On September 06 2011 13:14 Conversion wrote:
Is the patched delayed till next week?
I've been hearing this all over solo ranked.
I hope it's just a day
Late august was a week ago riot!
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On September 06 2011 07:08 BlackPaladin wrote:
Something that I noticed when I started playing LoL is that people tend to call things OP....a LOT. As if everything is OP. The same thing happened when SC2 hit the market. You got a ton of really shitty players calling this OP and that OP. But the problem is even worse in LoL, because you get top players calling this and that OP, shit tier, etc. It's like, if it has a small niche, or if it has a large niche, it's either shit tier or OP. There is no middle ground in people's minds for some reason. There is no such thing as "counters." In my mind it's like some dude building only immortals vs zerglings and calling zerglings OP and how immortals are shit tier. And it's annoying as fuck when top players say it cause shitty players like to take their words as the words of God and thus if they say it then it MUST be true. -_______-
It's simple why the OMG THAT SHIT IS SO OP is seen more in LoL than anywhere else.
If it wouldn't be OP if you lose against it, that would mean you're a baddie. No one in this game is a baddie, didn't you get the memo? zzzz
Counters? YOU MEAN YOU CAN COUNTER ME IN LANE? LOL RITE. IF YOU WIN AGAINST ME IT WAS FUCKING OP, GTFO WITH YOUR 'COUNTERS' LOL NEWB.
On September 06 2011 07:01 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
1- I read quite a lot of times that current metagame is boring, that we should put 2 AP bot and AD carries mid. How viable is this style ? I mean, AP nowadays take mid to have good farming, and a sololane makes them lvl faster. In a duo lane, they might lack some AP, etc ?
AP Carry Mid - because AP carries rely on levels much more than farm. AD Carry + Support Bot - because AD carries rely on farm much more than levels, and supports provide lane sustainability and they can babysit the AD carry. Tanky DPS/AP (ex: Chogath, Nasus) who needs farm, Top. Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
2- After I get my runes, I'd like to buy an AP carry champ (since I don't play any). I'd like Lux or Karma (she interests me a lot, but haven't tried her yet). Which one would you advice ?
Lux is way better than Karma (who is considered underpowered). Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 06:22 -Zoda- wrote:
3- In my laning phase, I have hard times. I got harassed quite a lot and can't really manage to avoid it, nor respond because I focus a lot on last hitting. When the laning phase gets over, I usually have the most CS, but I'm not the richest 'cause I am 0/0/0 or 0/0/1 if I got a gank, 0/1/1 if I got ganked, while teammates are 5/1/6 or stuff like that. To sum up, my laning phase is extremely passive, I can't manage to get a kill, even playing with champs like Trist who are supposed to be agressive laners... If you are top or mid, you should be ganking WHEN you see the PERFECT opportunity. Usually, you want to farm until about level 6 and then look if there's any opportunities to gank. If your teammates are 5/1/6 and you're 0-0-1, that means you're just not participating in team fights (when the first team fight happens, there should be multiple ones after).
You're just spewing out info you heard from "top solo q streamers" (aka people who play this game 1n5) and from "everyone in solo q" (aka sheep to the previously mentioned people) - he asked if it is viable and your answer is completely offtopic.
I wouldn't exactly call the current metagame boring, but hugely ineffective, mostly due to the "OMG OP" and "LOL COUNTERS" part mentioned above.
Let me put it in bold because then it might get through better:
People at this game (99.8%, yes this includes some of the top streamers) are horribly bad at this game when it comes to flexibility, creativity and therefor clear judgement.
The current "metagame" only exists because it works. Not because it works good. Imho the "Bruiser top / AP mid / AD support bot" is the easiest way for a team to NOT FUCK UP laning, which is crucial in solo q.
THERE ARE SO STRONG DIFFERENT LANES THAT CAN COMPLETELY FUCK UP THE ENEMY TEAM.
So, we picked Cho'Gath, Caitlyn, Taric, Brand and Lee Sin, rite.
We can have Taric/Brand show up with full armor and ap runes bot and destroy their AD/support (who run armor+ad cause they didn't expect that).
We can have Caitlyn show up mid with flat mres quints & blues + ad yellows and destroy most Ap carries.
We can even put Cho/Taric bottom if cho starts cloth+5, let Brand and Cait solo and let Taric roam after Cho is safe enough to 1n2.
All this stuff is completely viable. A team that's capable of saying "Let's send our bruiser 1n2 bot and our AD/support top" within the first 5 seconds of a game starting (cause their CV spotted some weakness in terms of runes e.g.) will always be superior to a team that doesn't have that option because it never thought about it / practiced it.
Why does no one do it? Cause no one cares about being good at this game.
There are some very, very few people and teams (maybe team Xan or like Shushei, Reginald and Jiji can be put into that category) who try things that seem completely 'weird' but are actually the result of putting thought and work into actually winning this game over an inferior opponent (not just in a mechanical, but also in a strategical sense).
The next step of evolution in this game has to be correctly predicting and countering the enemy teams picks & gameplan. Once this catches on champs that have their roles well disguised in picking (Brand can lane mid or bot with hard-cc support, Cait can go wherever she pleases, Lee can jungle or top fine etc. etc.) will be strongest.
Why? Because it works. Running the same lanesetup forever and ever again is like learning one single starcraft strat and beating people over and over again with it.
Playing a strong strategy you are comfortable with, but your enemy is not is half the way to victory in almost any game out there. However, that means you have to expand your own perspective on the game first - a feat I see loads of the "high mechanical skill + high ego"-people incapable of.
(Also, just a hint: The crew I just mentioned is the one most dominant in the early stages of a game. LoL is still rather young and by it's very nature will take more longer to evolve than let's say Quake/CS/Starcraft/Poker.)
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-sigh-
Remind me again, elo decay doesn't start until a month right? 'Cause I got gold like 1-2 weeks ago. Don't want to have to risk losing it 'cause of decay and late august actually not being late august.
Altho Moonbear's "expect the unexpected" came true. I was expecting a patch. No patch = unexpected :[
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EPT
