EPT[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 141
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2011 16:18 turdburgler wrote: you make like 5 posts in a row saying people dont experiment and then open a post with "we can just agree in fact x" maybe im just a random noob but isnt it entirely possible that 2 mid would be good because it would allow you to make earlier pokes on the tower while still remaining safer? im not saying thats even my opinion it just seems odd that you say stuff hasnt been tried, but then you make other blanket statements. 2v1 mid is weaker than 2v1 sidelane because the short lane and lack of brush means you can't deny/zone the opponent solo as hard. Tower damage at such early levels that doesn't actually turn into a tower kill is very low-value. On September 06 2011 20:10 spinesheath wrote: Huge misconception. Many 1000-2500 gold items are incredibly efficient: Aegis of the Legion Wit's End Wriggle's Lantern The Brutalizer Sheen Guinsoo's Rageblade Will of the Ancients Those items are extremely strong considering how early you can get them. Big defense items generally are rather inefficient, with Warmog's being the biggest exception. Deathcap, Gunblade and Infinity Edge definitely are very efficient, more so than the list above? Debatable. It's still the case that the core offensive/defensive stats are multiplicative. Granted, the multiplicative nature of defensive stats tends to be pretty meaningless. So long as we continue to stick with AD + Support bot lane, ADs sucking up the farm will be correct IMO, because AD carries are the only role that truly utilize the multiplicative scaling of damage stats. As I mentioned a few pages back, APs don't actually scale multiplicatively after they have Deathcap, and the multiplicative scaling on defensive stats tends to be largely superfluous, because buying more defensive stats when you already survive every fight doesn't really do anything (other than make the other team ignore you)--meaning that if we return to tank or AP duo lanes, it's very possible that split farm might be a more real possibility (even in some pressure duo lanes like Poppy+Blitzcrank, we'd see uneven, but not complete, farm splits). | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 06 2011 20:10 spinesheath wrote: How do you lose Dragon control with a roamer? Quite obviously the roamer will focus on mid and bottom. Ideally invading the enemy bottom jungle together/in coordination with his jungler. The enemy mid and jungle will be under pressure and lose some Dragon control. Same for your bottom, of course. Go top to 2v1, then your bot is exposed for a 1v2 and drag is open for the enemy team. Run mid, and you waste your time in a short lane while your bot is zoned out, and then the enemy team can just do drag because your bot lane is super underfarmed. As much as Riot hates to hear, their changes to make junglers "unnecessary" have only contributed to making the game passive in laning. You cant be aggressive with a lot of roaming simply because Riot destroyed 1v2 lanes. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2011 21:28 STS17 wrote: Riot could force supports to require farm in order to be useful which would make a lane have to split farm in order to be effective. It's important to remember that if both teams have to split farm and therefore each of the four champs is performing sub-optimally* then it balances out. Therefore, increasing the dependence on farm of supports will encourage players to split farm in a lane more. I don't see why Riot should need to "force" anything. It's one of those things that irks me about what Riot does sometimes--there's nothing WRONG with supports not needing farm, so they can just let gameplay evolve around it in its own way. Riot trying to "fix" the issue is just going to muddle the mixture unnecessarily, and probably just create its own problems without solving anything, just like their jungle changes. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
This doesn't really increase the incentive to split farm. Even if you have two identical champs laning together with identical scaling it's still better for one of them to get all the farm in terms of damage for your team as long as they can use either infinity edge, rabadon's, or tank stats. Starting from this point, imagine that one of these champions is the "support" champion and the other is the "carry" (even though we're starting from a point where the two are identical). If, in this situation, you buff the person playing the "support" while nerfing base damage/cc all you've done is turn the "support" into a "carry" and now your support champ is laning mid and being babysat bottom while the "carry" is now relatively a "support". If you just nerf the base utility/damage of the "support" all you've done is make the "support" a less useful than a "carry" type champ in a 0 CS "support" role. If you do both you've still just made your support more "carry" and your "carry" is now "support". The only thing working against this force is that if 0 CS genuinely requires scaling to be really effective then the carry is more or less all alone botlane and if picked off the team is hurt more, so there's less margin for error. However right now this force is overpowered by the presence of GP/5 and the fact that some champs simply scale much better than others (e.g. Kog Maw vs Alistar, AD needs more farm than AP, etc) and so in a duo lane really want to hog the farm. This scaling is encouraged by multiplicative stats and big multiplier items like IE/Rabadon's which widen the gap between supports and carries, not to mention auras which let you put your farm in a place where it's multiplicative (spellvamp, lifesteal, aegis of awesome) if you can't use it yourself. In other words, the only result I think you'll get from support nerfs and buffs is you'll get is carries taking support roles and supports taking carry roles, assuming the supports you just nerfed/buffed get picked at all. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:07 phyvo wrote: If you just nerf the base utility/damage of the "support" all you've done is make the "support" a less useful than a "carry" type champ in a 0 CS "support" role. Wrong. Supports have incredibly high base strength. That's why you pick those champs as supports. Not because they are labeled "support" or because they have a heal or because they don't scale well with gold. Because they are very strong without farm. Therefore, if you nerf the base strength of supports, they might become just as good with 0 farm as any other champ. Right now they are MUCH stronger than most other champs without farm. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:07 phyvo wrote: Even if you have two identical champs laning together with identical scaling it's still better for one of them to get all the farm in terms of damage for your team as long as they can use either infinity edge, rabadon's, or tank stats. Starting from this point, imagine that one of these champions is the "support" champion and the other is the "carry" (even though we're starting from a point where the two are identical). The first one is true, the 2nd and 3rd are not. - AP champs don't benefit from any multiplicative stats OTHER THAN the DCap AP multiplier. MPen is under-itemized so you only buy Void Staff when it becomes necessary based on enemy mitigation stats. CDR is not cost-effective to buy because of blue buff. This means that if 2 AP champs are both able to reach Deathcap, it's no longer the case that AP is better stacked on one than the other. - Even though tank stats are multiplicative, the fact is generally pretty meaningless. One person stacking up a ton of gold in mitigation tends not to really go anywhere, particularly when they pass the point where they survive every fight. Once they are capable of surviving fights, they should actually probably slow up their farm, and let other people reach that point, because having two people survive a fight is better than 1 person dying and one person having a ton of HP left. On September 07 2011 00:15 spinesheath wrote: Wrong. Supports have incredibly high base strength. That's why you pick those champs as supports. Not because they are labeled "support" or because they have a heal or because they don't scale well with gold. Because they are very strong without farm. Therefore, if you nerf the base strength of supports, they might become just as good with 0 farm as any other champ. Right now they are MUCH stronger than most other champs without farm. I think you're missing his point. If you nerf the utility of individual supports, it doesn't get people to start playing those champs as farm-stealing duo laners. They just stop playing that champ as support, and start playing the next champ down the line with high baseline utility as a support and you just cascade downward forever. You don't actually reach a point everyone wants to split farm because offensive stats are STILL multiplicative, and you can't get everyone to have EXACTLY-EQUAL farm dependence. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:03 TheYango wrote: I don't see why Riot should need to "force" anything. It's one of those things that irks me about what Riot does sometimes--there's nothing WRONG with supports not needing farm, so they can just let gameplay evolve around it in its own way. Riot trying to "fix" the issue is just going to muddle the mixture unnecessarily, and probably just create its own problems without solving anything, just like their jungle changes. Actually, there's a lot wrong with a subset of champions not needing farm. If you don't need to farm to be effective then that means you are punished for farming. You referring to your team as a whole. Every single piece of gold you actively earn (active being defined as requiring an action to do, such as last hitting or killing a champion) hurts your team because you are denying that gold from a champion who needs it. It is the reason there is no "counter" to the support/carry (ap or ad) bottom lane because you now have three lanes getting "solo farm" instead of two which is almost strictly superior to a lane splitting farm amongst the two of them. Moreover, it removes a significant portion of the mechanical aspect of gameplay for that subset of champions. This game is about getting gold and pushing towers, everything you do in the game revolves around one of those two principals. If you tell someone they don't need to worry about getting gold, because they can perform at near optimum without it, then you are completely destroying the need for one of the largest mechanical skills in the game. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On September 06 2011 23:47 TheYango wrote: So long as we continue to stick with AD + Support bot lane, ADs sucking up the farm will be correct IMO, because AD carries are the only role that truly utilize the multiplicative scaling of damage stats. As I mentioned a few pages back, APs don't actually scale multiplicatively after they have Deathcap, and the multiplicative scaling on defensive stats tends to be largely superfluous, because buying more defensive stats when you already survive every fight doesn't really do anything (other than make the other team ignore you)--meaning that if we return to tank or AP duo lanes, it's very possible that split farm might be a more real possibility (even in some pressure duo lanes like Poppy+Blitzcrank, we'd see uneven, but not complete, farm splits). I'd just like to note here that when I mathed split farm vs two farm laning duo Brands (identical champs), one brand playing 0 CS support and one playing carry was still stronger (more damage total) than two brands splitting farm for most of the game. The exception was right before the carry brand finishes deathcap and super late game when the carry brand runs out of item slots (long after the duo brands had finished their deathcaps). I didn't even take into account doing anything but buying more AP after deathcap, like void staff for more damage or other stats that let you stay in a fight longer like health or mana. Deathcap and AP alone are enough to produce this effect. As a result I can hardly imagine tank + AP splitting farm. If tanks can't tank with 0 CS then the correct play is to find someone who can or stick another AP with utility bottom. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:18 phyvo wrote: I'd just like to note here that when I mathed split farm vs two farm laning duo Brands (identical champs), one brand playing 0 CS support and one playing carry was still stronger (more damage total) than two brands splitting farm for most of the game. The exception was right before the carry brand finishes deathcap and super late game when the carry brand runs out of item slots (long after the duo brands had finished their deathcaps). I didn't even take into account doing anything but buying more AP after deathcap, like void staff for more damage or other stats that let you stay in a fight longer like health or mana. Deathcap and AP alone are enough to produce this effect. As a result I can hardly imagine tank + AP splitting farm. If tanks can't tank with 0 CS then the correct play is to find someone who can or stick another AP with utility bottom. This feels weird to me. If all 4 Brands are buying plain AP, and the split-farm Brands both have Deathcap, then shouldn't they get the exact same DPS/gold efficiency because AP isn't multiplicative with itself? | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:15 TheYango wrote: The first one is true, the 2nd and 3rd are not. - AP champs don't benefit from any multiplicative stats OTHER THAN the DCap AP multiplier. MPen is under-itemized so you only buy Void Staff when it becomes necessary based on enemy mitigation stats. CDR is not cost-effective to buy because of blue buff. This means that if 2 AP champs are both able to reach Deathcap, it's no longer the case that AP is better stacked on one than the other. - Even though tank stats are multiplicative, the fact is generally pretty meaningless. One person stacking up a ton of gold in mitigation tends not to really go anywhere, particularly when they pass the point where they survive every fight. Once they are capable of surviving fights, they should actually probably slow up their farm, and let other people reach that point, because having two people survive a fight is better than 1 person dying and one person having a ton of HP left. You might be right in whether or not we should technically call it "multiplicative", but there are several reasons why your argument here isn't true. A) if blue buff is a factor then it's CDR and mana is more useful on a carry brand than a split farm brand. B) If it isn't then multiplicative stats from itemizing CDR is better on a carry brand than on two split farm brands. C) Even stacking pure AP after deathcap Carry/0 CS brands maintain a lead over split farm brands because Carry/0CS brand only needs to buy one deathcap. Hence, split CS brands only surpass 0 CS/carry brands just before Carry Brand's deathcap when Carry brand can no longer buy useful items. In regards to tank stats, it's true that if you don't die more tank stats don't help. But tanks die pretty regularly and tanky DPS like Renekton/Amumu also benefit from damage items, not to mention that damage is multiplicative in it's effectiveness with survivability. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:15 TheYango wrote: I think you're missing his point. If you nerf the utility of individual supports, it doesn't get people to start playing those champs as farm-stealing duo laners. They just stop playing that champ as support, and start playing the next champ down the line with high baseline utility as a support and you just cascade downward forever. You don't actually reach a point everyone wants to split farm because offensive stats are STILL multiplicative, and you can't get everyone to have EXACTLY-EQUAL farm dependence. The reason you're wrong is that eventually you hit a point where a good support player on a good support hero can still hold on, while otherwise two guys playing nukers or whatnot at bot lane will win, like the old days. Right now what's wrong with support heroes is that it usually is difficult for two nukers to defeat the support +1, because support heroes have too strong a baseline strength and are able to trump nukers. That said, as I mentioned yesterday, that is a misconception. Many old-fashioned bot lanes crush support+1 right now, but people are too stupid to do it. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
edit: lol this is moving fast. For easy reference On September 07 2011 00:22 TheYango wrote: This feels weird to me. If all 4 Brands are buying plain AP, and the split-farm Brands both have Deathcap, then shouldn't they get the exact same DPS/gold efficiency because AP isn't multiplicative with itself? At that point split farm brands scale the same but they're still behind because both had to buy deathcap and pay for that multiplier while the carry brand just piles on more AP until he can't anymore. edit2: crap, new post instead of edit. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:22 TheYango wrote: This feels weird to me. If all 4 Brands are buying plain AP, and the split-farm Brands both have Deathcap, then shouldn't they get the exact same DPS/gold efficiency because AP isn't multiplicative with itself? I haven't done the math myself, but Deathcap is only barely more efficient for AP than just buying a Needlessly Large Rod, unless you have other sources of AP for the passive to increase. Deathcap plus 2x NLR actually gives you more AP than 2x Deathcaps for less cost, for instance. So I think this ends up winning out. edit: By this I mean I'm counting the first Deathcap as 182 AP, not as 140. Deathcap plus 2x NLR on the same champion beats out 1 Deathcap on each of 2 champions though. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Math aside, the biggest downside to focusing farm onto a single champion is when that single champion gets picked off. Lots of games are lost when carries are caught out of position. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
On September 07 2011 00:28 Southlight wrote:That said, as I mentioned yesterday, that is a misconception. Many old-fashioned bot lanes crush support+1 right now, but people are too stupid to do it. Like? *takes out notebook* | ||
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unichan
United States4223 Posts
burst damage something like janna + renekton or i dunno whatever tank + support these two have huge cc together so if a jungler comes a kill is pmuch guaranteed | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
Cow LBC Kennen X Morg X Lux X Sion X Soraka is still a bitch because of her heal but if you can line up to magic damage you completely circumvent her "clutch" heal so you can counterpick her that way anyways. | ||
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