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Completely missed your post actually. I was responding to the fact that he has "good ap ratios." I agree that he's good for reviving your tanky melee dps (and speeding them up so they can't be kited), but he can do that as support bottom while somebody else farms.
On August 05 2011 08:20 TieN.nS) wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Zilean might be strong early game, but he's awful late game. It's not even worth building AP on him because he only has one damage ability (that doesn't even scale that well). ????? Putting Zil bottom is stupid, having a level 6 Zilean for an early dragon fight is huge and one of the main perks for picking him. Don't really know how you're going to have max CDR if you don't itemize for it and it's pretty stupid to give blue buff to a Zilean with no farm. Don't know why you would want to pick Zilean for a "support" bottom in the first place either, especially considering you think that a farmed Zilean is useless lategame -- what good is a Zil without items then? lol I think it's fair to assume you just haven't seen a good Zilean, he's much better than you think.
I don't think I've ever seen Zilean picked in a tournament, not that I've watched an incredible amount of League, and I (almost) never watch people stream random games. All my thoughts are from playing him and playing with him. He's alright if you have a strong melee carry, but I'd rather play with an AP Carry or an actual support than have the bastard version of both of them.
My sentence about cdr is poorly worded, but as you said it doesn't take much to reach the cap meaning you can easily get it while you're being a ward bitch. Zilean without items spams E and saves your (melee) carry with his R. He's kinda like janna in that he disrupts movement of enemies without the shield.
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On August 05 2011 05:08 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 05:07 r.Evo wrote:
What worked great before the split:
Instalock.
Revive TP.
Type shit like "))))))" and "ok))"
People assume ur russian, retarded and dodge for you. gg. K I'll try this next time ok?)))))))))) Edit: trying it now, instalock eve Edit2: didn't work FUUUUU
cant do it with eve and revive/fXY, its too obvious that you want someone to dodge.
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On August 05 2011 08:20 TieN.nS) wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 07:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Zilean might be strong early game, but he's awful late game. It's not even worth building AP on him because he only has one damage ability (that doesn't even scale that well). ????? Putting Zil bottom is stupid, having a level 6 Zilean for an early dragon fight is huge and one of the main perks for picking him. Don't really know how you're going to have max CDR if you don't itemize for it and it's pretty stupid to give blue buff to a Zilean with no farm. Don't know why you would want to pick Zilean for a "support" bottom in the first place either, especially considering you think that a farmed Zilean is useless lategame -- what good is a Zil without items then? lol I think it's fair to assume you just haven't seen a good Zilean, he's much better than you think.
Hence why people play Zilean so little. He controls the midgame very well, but as soon as lategame hits you're 4+1v5ing every fight. Once you reach late enough, qwq stops being meaningful and you're just a glorified walking ult and slow. Those abilities are nice, but suddenly all that farm and solo exp you got is pretty ineffective. People like to think Zilean makes it a 6v5, but it's not true in many cases. He shines when you have little skirmishes where you can res someone off away from enemies, but if your carry dies in the middle of the scrum, he will just die the instant he resurrects.
In the midgame, at least Zilean can still do meaningful damage during the period where they're waiting for the revive, but at lategame you can shrug off Zilean pretty easily, since the bruisers and tanks will barely take damage from him (and the carries shouldn't be in range in the first place).
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2011 08:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Compared to a dedicated AP carry like Annie who has three scaling abilities yes. Her ratios are slightly lower, but she has not one, but three abilities to kill people with. The only thing Zilean has going for him is that he does sustained damage and punishes close knit team since bombs can hit multiple people if they're close-by, although I'm not sure I'd consider those good.
I mentioned this several pages back. Yes, Zilean falls behind Annie and Orianna on pure damage, but not every AP carry is Annie or Orianna. If you compare him to other AP carries like Kassadin, Gragas, or AP Sion (back when he was good), his damage is equal or greater to theirs, particularly when you take the positioning-dependence of their spells into account. Nobody complains that those champs fall off too hard lategame--but somehow the fact that Zilean's damage is loaded into 1.5 spells makes people antsy, even though both his sustained and burst damage can keep up with them.
On August 05 2011 08:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
The biggest problem with bombs is that they take three seconds to explode. You can kill somebody with annie instantly so they have no chance to get away or do anything about it. With Zilean you can force the first bomb to explode if you W and cast another, but if you can kill somebody with a single bomb you could have won playing anything. While you're waiting for the second bomb to explode they can lifesteal all that health back and then you get nowhere.
The delay on bombs is a double-edged sword, which has more pros than cons if you play it correctly. The biggest one is that being able to have an anti-carry bring a bomb on his back into the squishies of the enemy team allows push damage onto high-priority targets that would otherwise be out of your reach. Annie flash-ults past tanks onto enemy carry in the back? She gets instantly melted. But Zilean can EQ a tanky dude effortly past the front line, pushing his damage onto those carries with zero risk to himself.
There are also a surprising number of situations where a double bomb turns into instant damage, like when a creep is near the fight, or when a low-HP target runs through his team to escape.
On August 05 2011 08:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
You're not so much itemizing CDR as you are not farming at all/playing support bottom.
Zilean doesn't have enough to offer as a support. It's like playing Anivia as a support--she has a bunch of baseline utility in her kit, but she's far too limited by her mana-hunger and scales too well for that to be a reasonable choice. Zilean's babysitting has no sustainability (across health or mana), and his harass effectively cedes creep control to the other duo lane.
I know it's a cop-out argument, but honestly, Jiji, Regi, and Pobelter, who are arguably the 3 best AP carry players on US are extremely unlikely to be simultaneously wrong about how to play a champion that they all have played a ton of.
On August 05 2011 08:24 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen Zilean picked in a tournament, not that I've watched an incredible amount of League, and I (almost) never watch people stream random games. All my thoughts are from playing him and playing with him. He's alright if you have a strong melee carry, but I'd rather play with an AP Carry or an actual support than have the bastard version of both of them.
Did you just completely miss the period of like 2 months where CLG and TSM would ban or pick Zilean for Regi/Jiji every fucking game? Prior to his nerf, and when Irelia/Renekton/Jarvan were the kings of top lane, Zilean was undisputedly the best AP carry in the game.
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QWQ is a double-edged sword because it means you waste the opportunity to do a second haste or slow. If you choose to do that, then you lose damage.
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On August 05 2011 09:22 Craton wrote:
QWQ is a double-edged sword because it means you waste the opportunity to do a second haste or slow. If you choose to do that, then you lose damage.
QEWQ then?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2011 09:30 StuffedTurkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 09:22 Craton wrote:
QWQ is a double-edged sword because it means you waste the opportunity to do a second haste or slow. If you choose to do that, then you lose damage. QEWQ then?
Instant cast spells are hard to use.
Though I think what he's referring to is the fact that if you W on cooldown, you lose Q damage, because QWQ every 10 seconds is more damage than WQ every 6 seconds when W cools off. But that's really just something that as a Zilean player, you have to have a sense for--when you need that slow CD, and when you need more damage.
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Probably I didn't touch LoL from January/Febuary until June/July so there's a good chance that those two months are in that period.
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On August 05 2011 08:24 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Completely missed your post actually. I was responding to the fact that he has "good ap ratios." I agree that he's good for reviving your tanky melee dps (and speeding them up so they can't be kited), but he can do that as support bottom while somebody else farms. Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 08:20 TieN.nS) wrote:On August 05 2011 07:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Zilean might be strong early game, but he's awful late game. It's not even worth building AP on him because he only has one damage ability (that doesn't even scale that well). ????? Putting Zil bottom is stupid, having a level 6 Zilean for an early dragon fight is huge and one of the main perks for picking him. Don't really know how you're going to have max CDR if you don't itemize for it and it's pretty stupid to give blue buff to a Zilean with no farm. Don't know why you would want to pick Zilean for a "support" bottom in the first place either, especially considering you think that a farmed Zilean is useless lategame -- what good is a Zil without items then? lol I think it's fair to assume you just haven't seen a good Zilean, he's much better than you think. I don't think I've ever seen Zilean picked in a tournament, not that I've watched an incredible amount of League, and I (almost) never watch people stream random games. All my thoughts are from playing him and playing with him. He's alright if you have a strong melee carry, but I'd rather play with an AP Carry or an actual support than have the bastard version of both of them. My sentence about cdr is poorly worded, but as you said it doesn't take much to reach the cap meaning you can easily get it while you're being a ward bitch. Zilean without items spams E and saves your (melee) carry with his R. He's kinda like janna in that he disrupts movement of enemies without the shield.
I'm pretty sure Zilean was picked\banned a few times in dreamhack qualifiers.
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Both CLG, TSM and I think but not sure unr use Zilean mid a lot and other teams ban out Zilean mid against them.
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jiji playing Zilean solomid right now on stream for you non believers. Watch and be converted!
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Why is CLG playing vs 1300's?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2011 11:00 BlackPaladin wrote:
Why is CLG playing vs 1300's?
WCG Canada qualifiers.
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lol oh god I got to watch this. They don't even have a support lawl
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Damn if I knew this I would totally have signed up for WCG Canada LOL
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On August 05 2011 10:17 Slayer91 wrote:
Both CLG, TSM and I think but not sure unr use Zilean mid a lot and other teams ban out Zilean mid against them.
Reginald, jiji, Pobelter
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What's a good item build for soraka ? (sorry if this is the wrong thread)
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On August 05 2011 15:48 Nevuk wrote:
What's a good item build for soraka ? (sorry if this is the wrong thread)
gold/5 is good because of lack of farm. dring stack is good if you're getting raped or just want to be BEEFY (i never really get them, just gtfo harms way and heal your carry zzz).
wardswardswards
Shurelia's later on is really nice if you need to kite/your team needs help initiating. Deathcap is legit, makes your starcalls like free karthus ult on 1 sec cooldown np.
It's just like every other support really.
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On August 05 2011 15:48 Nevuk wrote:
What's a good item build for soraka ? (sorry if this is the wrong thread)
usually want to get the 3 gold/5 items that make sense on her: philo, kage's pick, heart of gold
boots are usually mercs
buy a lot of wards and/or an oracle
then aim for deathcap or aegis
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On August 05 2011 15:48 Nevuk wrote:
What's a good item build for soraka ? (sorry if this is the wrong thread)
ap/lvl on red/yellow/blue
flat ap on quints
3/6/21
ap/lvl in offense
armor and mr in def
and standard util
start boot pot ward
build 1~3(kage>philo>hog) gold/5 depending on how well ur doing(experiment with gold/5's see how many is "right" for u)
deathcap next followed by zhonya hourglass
upgrade boots to cdr before deathcap
upgrade philo to reverie if u need to
enjoy~
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EPT
