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On July 29 2011 03:54 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 03:20 r33k wrote:On July 29 2011 01:23 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 29 2011 01:06 r33k wrote:Jax ganks on morde are 100% guaranteed kills with a pushed lane. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
Gunblade with wits end This is bad. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
standard ap build scales better into lategame I guess. This is worse. Stop doing that. How do you build jax? Properly. I build him properly. Gunblade into rageblade into atmas/BV, with a variable amount of dblades and the option to skip guinsoos if game is going badly. Saying that jax has poor lategame is pretty much like saying that morello is a woman. No matter how much you try do defend yourself, no matter how well you dress him up jax has good lategame and morello has a penis. ^ This. (although FoN is good in place of banshee's too) The person who said atmogs is dumb was entirely correct. Why are you building a pure hp item on a champion who gets hp from AD/AP? He's not vlad. He doesn't get AD/AP from HP. You don't need to waste that much gold on HP and do no damage on jax. Sure it can work in low elo, but so can AD vlad. That doesn't make it good though, lol.
you realized you're saying that to Slayer91 (the one who actually just advocated Warmog's on Jax) right? iirc, he's pretty decently rated on EU.
I mean, between counterstrike and relentless assualt, Jax gets a lot of free mitigation. Speccing Gunblade (the highest use of his passive) you get 330 HP. And you're saying that's a sufficient replacement for warmog's 1370? What? I'm not saying 330 free HP is a bad thing or that I don't appreciate it, but it's folly to think that HP is seriously that undervalued on Jax. Just ignoring his passive and building like most other Tanky DPS makes a whole lot of sense if you ask me.
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On July 29 2011 04:01 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 03:10 Two_DoWn wrote:
IMO Jax only needs 2 damage items, gunblade and rageblade. After that all you need are a billion resistances and your all set to 1v5 the enemy team. I hear this a lot. Nasus "only" "needs" trinity force. People said before irelia "only" "needs" ghostblade. It doesn't mean anything. You can get as much damage as you want and as much tank as you want, blanket statements like getting 2 items only for damage and the rest tank every g ame are wrong. I could easily say all you need is atmas and wits end and stack a lot of health before getting GA as an argument as well. There are no perfect builds, its an evolving game and there are far too many variables.
Only on Jax, the dual 'blades gets you an excelent mix of damage, aspeed, vampirism and ap. After that Jax does the most damage simply by staying alive. The longer that the fight goes, the better off Jax is because of the vampirism, dodge procs, and full rageblade and ult stacks. If your enemies build damage, then your fine because you have lots of tank and plenty of damage to kill them. If your enemies build tank, then you have more damage so you hit harder, and you are just as tanky as them thanks to your passive so you live longer anyway.
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On July 29 2011 03:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ult range REALLY hurt him. They managed to make his ult PERFECTLY not quite long enough to actually get from lane to lane. Kinda gutted the whole feel of the character.
As if you ever ulted from the middle of a lane to another lane. HI I AM GOING TO STUN YOU WHILE YOU ULTI.
So now you walk 5 steps back and 5 to the side, ulti and tadaaa, you reach another lane. At worst your enemies will now have 5 extra seconds to type TF MIA before they can see you ulted.
The point is: TF wasn't such a strong champ in competitive play anyways, or did you see him as #1 pick/ban during DH? He's for stomping noobs. Those don't know how to deal with TF regardess.
Sure I am omitting his lategame. Irrelevant in solo Q or generally low elo.
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On July 29 2011 04:05 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 03:54 BlackPaladin wrote:On July 29 2011 03:20 r33k wrote:On July 29 2011 01:23 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 29 2011 01:06 r33k wrote:Jax ganks on morde are 100% guaranteed kills with a pushed lane. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
Gunblade with wits end This is bad. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
standard ap build scales better into lategame I guess. This is worse. Stop doing that. How do you build jax? Properly. I build him properly. Gunblade into rageblade into atmas/BV, with a variable amount of dblades and the option to skip guinsoos if game is going badly. Saying that jax has poor lategame is pretty much like saying that morello is a woman. No matter how much you try do defend yourself, no matter how well you dress him up jax has good lategame and morello has a penis. ^ This. (although FoN is good in place of banshee's too) The person who said atmogs is dumb was entirely correct. Why are you building a pure hp item on a champion who gets hp from AD/AP? He's not vlad. He doesn't get AD/AP from HP. You don't need to waste that much gold on HP and do no damage on jax. Sure it can work in low elo, but so can AD vlad. That doesn't make it good though, lol. you realized you're saying that to Slayer91 (the one who actually just advocated Warmog's on Jax) right? iirc, he's pretty decently rated on EU. I mean, between counterstrike and relentless assualt, Jax gets a lot of free mitigation. Speccing Gunblade (the highest use of his passive) you get 330 HP. And you're saying that's a sufficient replacement for warmog's 1370? What? I'm not saying 330 free HP is a bad thing or that I don't appreciate it, but it's folly to think that HP is seriously that undervalued on Jax. Just ignoring his passive and building like most other Tanky DPS makes a whole lot of sense if you ask me.
I'm not saying HP is bad, I'm saying rushing a warmogs is bad on jax as a standard build. Hextech gunblade rush is just a lot better on him, and while it's 1k less hp than warmog it's about a million times more damage and utility on him (lifesteal + spellvamp + slow).
It's like, why do you not build warmogs on vlad? It gives you even MORE HP and it even gives him AP! Such an amazing item on him, right?? No, it really isn't. It just cuts in on his damage. HP isn't undervalued, it's just you get it from other sources. BV, triforce, hextech gunblade, etcetc. All of that gives him HP. To build an item that only gives hp on him is kind of a waste to me because you're giving up on a lot of damage for a stat you get from building more damage. He's partially similar to vlad in that sense, in that he gets a lot of mitigation in health through just building damage. So you can just build damage + armor/MR. Even vlad doesn't build pure HP like warmogs ever. If he does build a health item (rylais) it's more for the utility.
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On July 29 2011 03:36 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 03:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ult range REALLY hurt him. They managed to make his ult PERFECTLY not quite long enough to actually get from lane to lane. Kinda gutted the whole feel of the character. Not even enough to get from base back to mid, really stupid running to the mid turret and THEN ulting -_- They really should buff the range to 7000, or something. though I guess now you can actually call MIA on TF when he leaves mid in order to ult. EDIT: Pro at pressing new post instead of edit
...that would defeat the point of nerfing the ult in the first place.
The point is: TF wasn't such a strong champ in competitive play anyways, or did you see him as #1 pick/ban during DH? He's for stomping noobs. Those don't know how to deal with TF regardess.
#1 for stomping newbs?
He was banned or first picked at every elo and every tournament (including DH + prelims). He also had the highest win % of any champion above some rating threshold (idk 1800?).
I don't know where you're getting this idea from, but TF was broken no matter how "newb" you were.
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On July 29 2011 04:31 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 03:36 Shikyo wrote:On July 29 2011 03:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ult range REALLY hurt him. They managed to make his ult PERFECTLY not quite long enough to actually get from lane to lane. Kinda gutted the whole feel of the character. Not even enough to get from base back to mid, really stupid running to the mid turret and THEN ulting -_- They really should buff the range to 7000, or something. though I guess now you can actually call MIA on TF when he leaves mid in order to ult. EDIT: Pro at pressing new post instead of edit ...that would defeat the point of nerfing the ult in the first place.
That you can gank bot and top from mid? Not in my opinion, that's what it's designed for, it's just stupid that he can instantly port from base to bd the nexus or to bd enemy inhib turret, or tp from bot to top when the enemy starts coming for him
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United States47024 Posts
On July 29 2011 04:29 BlackPaladin wrote:
I'm not saying HP is bad, I'm saying rushing a warmogs is bad on jax as a standard build. Hextech gunblade rush is just a lot better on him, and while it's 1k less hp than warmog it's about a million times more damage and utility on him (lifesteal + spellvamp + slow).
It's like, why do you not build warmogs on vlad? It gives you even MORE HP and it even gives him AP! Such an amazing item on him, right?? No, it really isn't. It just cuts in on his damage. HP isn't undervalued, it's just you get it from other sources. BV, triforce, hextech gunblade, etcetc. All of that gives him HP. To build an item that only gives hp on him is kind of a waste to me because you're giving up on a lot of damage for a stat you get from building more damage. He's partially similar to vlad in that sense, in that he gets a lot of mitigation in health through just building damage. So you can just build damage + armor/MR. Even vlad doesn't build pure HP like warmogs ever. If he does build a health item (rylais) it's more for the utility.
The point of Atmogs on Jax is the synergy with his passive--HP->AD through Atmas coupled with AD->HP from his passive means that it doesn't matter if you're buying HP or AD, you're going to get a pretty solid amount of both because they scale back into each other. Warmog's just happens to be the most cost-effective pure source of HP or AD in the game.
The Vlad comparison isn't really apt because as an AP carry, survivability stats are much less useful midgame to him than damage--whereas on a melee DPS, survivability stats are always in demand. Not to mention that the Atma's passive has much better gold value than Vlad's passive (41.5 gold worth of AD for every 132 gold worth of HP, as opposed to 21.75 gold worth of AP for every 105 gold worth of HP).
On July 29 2011 04:31 Craton wrote:
...that would defeat the point of nerfing the ult in the first place.
I thought the point of nerfing the ult was to deal with the fact that he could splitpush bottom lategame while still creating Baron pressure because he could just TP there. Lane-to-lane ganks early-midgame were not that big of a deal IMO.
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On July 29 2011 03:20 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 01:23 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 29 2011 01:06 r33k wrote:Jax ganks on morde are 100% guaranteed kills with a pushed lane. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
Gunblade with wits end This is bad. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
standard ap build scales better into lategame I guess. This is worse. Stop doing that. How do you build jax? Properly. I build him properly. Gunblade into rageblade into atmas/BV, with a variable amount of dblades and the option to skip guinsoos if game is going badly. Saying that jax has poor lategame is pretty much like saying that morello is a woman. No matter how much you try do defend yourself, no matter how well you dress him up jax has good lategame and morello has a penis.
Cut the crap pls, I already am aware of how good gunblade and rageblade are on jax. My issue lies more on exploring other logical routes. Wits end isn't as grb but if you want mr without delaying your damage midgame by dumping 740 on negatron and being slower on your damage, it's a good item to consider.
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lane-to-lane ganks were probably a problem as well tbh. mostly due to the fact that like, you literally could never be aggressive on the non-TF lanes vs. a TF team or even if you were winning the fight because he could just suprise level 6 AP Carry you in the butt.
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They were a huge deal. Lane to lane ganks and counter ganks are what allowed TF get so strong that he's able to abuse split pushing by being able to 1v1 anyone. It also caused the same effect that eve/twitch did (as riot put it, "claustrophobic"). You could never be aggressive in a lane because at any second TF could ult in. Now he's forced to be more deliberate if he wants to do that, so you can do something other than farm at your tower.
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I agree on your wukong (vs lee) analysis because its pretty much what I said in the first place when I disagreed on phreaks idea to build trinity->tank items on him. In the end wukong needs a hotfix anyway (there are some scaling bugs on him) before ppl will figure him out.
As far as laneing goes: Did anyone try him bottom with support so far? Is he really that bad solo top? Arent there matchups that he can manage or even dominate with his skillset?
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On July 29 2011 04:38 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 04:31 Craton wrote:On July 29 2011 03:36 Shikyo wrote:On July 29 2011 03:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ult range REALLY hurt him. They managed to make his ult PERFECTLY not quite long enough to actually get from lane to lane. Kinda gutted the whole feel of the character. Not even enough to get from base back to mid, really stupid running to the mid turret and THEN ulting -_- They really should buff the range to 7000, or something. though I guess now you can actually call MIA on TF when he leaves mid in order to ult. EDIT: Pro at pressing new post instead of edit ...that would defeat the point of nerfing the ult in the first place. That you can gank bot and top from mid? Not in my opinion, that's what it's designed for, it's just stupid that he can instantly port from base to bd the nexus or to bd enemy inhib turret, or tp from bot to top when the enemy starts coming for him
I don't care if that's what it was designed for, it was a stupid broken mechanic. As far as I'm concerned, if TF ult nerf killed the character - fine. I'd rather have him be subpar, but still playable... which he is... than a ranged carry version of eve.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
ok we get it TF was anti-fun or w/e. But now that he cant do the whole ganking thing, hes absolute trash. He needs to have monster damage for being one of the squishiest chars in the game with no escape, he really needs a boost on his wildcard/pick a card damage now.
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United States47024 Posts
It'd also be nice if he didn't have the most random attack range ever, and got it buffed to something normal.
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buff his AA range to 575 and he's fine IMO.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
buffing his AA range would make him too linear, he just needs more damage now.
Laning would go: oh my AA range is larger then yours. GOLD CARD LOL YOU CANT DO ANYTHING
oh my AA range is shorter then yours...guess ill just spam wildcards(he already has to do this vs a lot of lanes which is how it should be prob)
with his design i think his low range needs to stay.
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On July 29 2011 04:43 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 03:20 r33k wrote:On July 29 2011 01:23 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 29 2011 01:06 r33k wrote:Jax ganks on morde are 100% guaranteed kills with a pushed lane. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
Gunblade with wits end This is bad. On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
standard ap build scales better into lategame I guess. This is worse. Stop doing that. How do you build jax? Properly. I build him properly. Gunblade into rageblade into atmas/BV, with a variable amount of dblades and the option to skip guinsoos if game is going badly. Saying that jax has poor lategame is pretty much like saying that morello is a woman. No matter how much you try do defend yourself, no matter how well you dress him up jax has good lategame and morello has a penis. Cut the crap pls, I already am aware of how good gunblade and rageblade are on jax. My issue lies more on exploring other logical routes. Wits end isn't as grb but if you want mr without delaying your damage midgame by dumping 740 on negatron and being slower on your damage, it's a good item to consider.
Wits end overcaps your AS without bringing any immediately useful stuff. The HP benefits from grb are better than what wits end gives, especially in the current meta where HP>EHP. Atmogs is better because of how quickly jax farms and fills up warmogs.
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current meta HP > EHP? what?
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On July 29 2011 05:53 Mogwai wrote:
current meta HP > EHP? what?
dat negative AR/MR
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On July 29 2011 05:53 Mogwai wrote:
current meta HP > EHP? what?
That seems to be the case with everyone supporting atmogs on everything. 
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EPT
