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On July 28 2011 09:41 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:08 LaNague wrote:
tanky IS what u do with melee carries, you cant build them dps because then they blow up in half a second. Ranged carries also blow up in half a second. What you mean is tanks, not melee carries. What makes AD based tanks viable (triforce+tank items / atmogs build) is their CC and/or support spells. Wukong has neither. So building him as a tank seems like building akali as a tank or master yi. I'am not saying that you should only build dps on a melee carry. But the less utility a champion provides the more damage he has to do IMO.
"Melee carries" and your definition of "Tanks" are the same thing. "blowing up in half a second" is more manageable when you can stay out of range of all but 1 person and shoot them. As a melee to hit someone you will be in range of most of their team so you must always be prepared for focus fire.
Triforce/tank or atmogs are not the only viable builds for tanky dps either. The general trend is right though; pick builds with crazy effiicient hybrid builds because building pure damage items that ranged AD build and pure tank items will leave you will less overall stats.
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On July 28 2011 14:25 HazMat wrote:Please explain how a Zilean dies to an Ashe mid. I know it's bruiseleet but even for him that's mad weird.
ok, so
level 1, I hit him for 1/3 of his HP with volley and lol just auto attack him a bunch. I flash for the kill, he flashes away to safety. I push to tower, he returns to lane as I back to buy some pots because I opened dblade because my chat is broken and I had no idea I'd be soloing until we're all standing at blue and my team tells me I'm mid, lol. I get back on lane. He runs up to put a bomb on my head, using his CDs. I turn on frost shot, volley -> exhaust, attack 2 or 3 times, he dies, lol. AsheGizmo #1, can't touch dat balls out offensive spec in a solo lane.
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On July 28 2011 22:37 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 14:25 HazMat wrote:On July 28 2011 13:56 Mogwai wrote:
ashegizmo #1. true or false? Please explain how a Zilean dies to an Ashe mid. I know it's bruiseleet but even for him that's mad weird. ok, so level 1, I hit him for 1/3 of his HP with volley and lol just auto attack him a bunch. I flash for the kill, he flashes away to safety. I push to tower, he returns to lane as I back to buy some pots because I opened dblade because my chat is broken and I had no idea I'd be soloing until we're all standing at blue and my team tells me I'm mid, lol. I get back on lane. He runs up to put a bomb on my head, using his CDs. I turn on frost shot, volley -> exhaust, attack 2 or 3 times, he dies, lol. AsheGizmo #1, can't touch dat balls out offensive spec in a solo lane.
TL;DR
OldShake > NewShake
Last hitting > NewShake
Flash + Exhaust > 1/2 HP Zilean
Amumu > teamfights
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So I'm trying to wrap my head around lane theory, or at least for the current metagame. I get that tank/assassin=jungle, Tanky DPS = top, AP carry = mid, AD carry + Support = bot. What I don't understand really is why. What exactly makes is so important that AD is bot, and AP is mid? What makes these lanes so rigid, and why isn't there a more diverse set of counters/games that happen?
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On July 28 2011 15:10 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 13:48 Juicyfruit wrote:
Well it's true it's being reverted; I didn't pay attention to the nerf a while back Q.Q
That said, I don't know whether I buy that Jax needs to be in the middle of everything since with standard AP build (Drings -> Deathcap) he has like 3000HP by deathcap.
His burst is very powerful for a tanky DPS, and his full loadout would be comparable to any caster, so if he can just dump that onto a squishy, and then flash out and burst again, he can comfortable clean up after that. Except building him pure AP is rather dumb since he scales much better with AD than AP.
Haha I was just comparing him to a standard ap burster so I used deathcap.
Gunblade with wits end sound pretty beast for jax, though because of having no void staff you need to win fast. The standard ap build scales better into lategame I guess.
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On July 28 2011 23:17 kepael wrote:
So I'm trying to wrap my head around lane theory, or at least for the current metagame. I get that tank/assassin=jungle, Tanky DPS = top, AP carry = mid, AD carry + Support = bot. What I don't understand really is why. What exactly makes is so important that AD is bot, and AP is mid? What makes these lanes so rigid, and why isn't there a more diverse set of counters/games that happen?
Mostly its that people don't care to experiment, but assuming that mid and bot get the same amount of farm you'd prefer a higher lvl ap carry than ad carry since they rely more on skills as opposed to an ad carry which cares more about farm.
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On July 28 2011 13:05 Flakes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 12:34 Shikyo wrote:On July 28 2011 12:19 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 28 2011 09:15 arnath wrote:
Can somebody who owns him comment on whether Jax is as ridiculous right now as he looks on Jiji's stream? I don't know whether he's overpowered, but the leap strike AD ratio buff is HUGE for his early game, since it takes into account the base damage. It just got back to how it was earlier. Jax wasn't OP back then either. Jax is ok if you can lane him vs someone nice top but his problem is he's countered so easily (Mordekaiser) And also the fact that he needs to be in the middle of everything in teamfights and he honestly dies really quickly to some focusfire by mages, and physical with SOTD just totally counters him as Jax tends to not get any armor. If he gets fed early he's super strong in the midgame, but it's hard to get fed early as he doesn't beat or go even with almost any common solo top and Mordekaizer is impossible to beat for Jax. Fortunately at 1500 (and counting!) he solos top just fine. Especially if you go all out offensive from level one and are willing to trade kills (whatever gets you to lategame faster). Speaking of Jax vs. Morde in ranked, ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zJBye.jpg) my response when things like this happen is usually "If I wasn't lucky, I wouldn't play Jax." + Show Spoiler +Yes I lived. That Morde was unhappy, to say the least.
But that shouldn't even happen. Every time you want to go for lasthits, the Morde should just E you whenever you get in range, and you pretty much get denied if he plays intelligently. If you jump to him you really can't do much vs him as Q is insane dmg and the shield gives him such a DoT that you need to run if you don't want to die, and he'll just E you when you run away.
I have no idea how you got 3-1 by 8min.
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Jax can probably farm against a morde lane if he brings enough pots and have mr runes, and jax is decently good at tower last hitting because of his e. I'm talking outta my balls on this one though.
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On July 28 2011 23:35 Juicyfruit wrote:
Jax can probably farm against a morde lane if he brings enough pots and have mr runes, and jax is decently good at tower last hitting because of his e. I'm talking outta my balls on this one though.
Well he can lasthit at tower sure, but he's going to be taking dmg from mordes W from one of the minions and E every time it's up. Sure if he gets enough pots he can farm for a short while, but even so he can't even go even unless the Morde plays it completely wrong(only farmpush, no harrass or deny)
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On July 28 2011 23:17 kepael wrote:
So I'm trying to wrap my head around lane theory, or at least for the current metagame. I get that tank/assassin=jungle, Tanky DPS = top, AP carry = mid, AD carry + Support = bot. What I don't understand really is why. What exactly makes is so important that AD is bot, and AP is mid? What makes these lanes so rigid, and why isn't there a more diverse set of counters/games that happen?
Top gets to AFK farm the most, so you want something largely immovable from lane.
Mid controls the map (sidelane ganks + dragon) and gets solo exp/cs, so you want something that scales well on levels and has strong early-mid game presence for ganks and dragon fights.
Bot gets babysat, but splits exp, so you want something that has comparatively low CC or escapes to your other lanes.
The reason its 1:1:2 is because dragon is on the bottom half of the map and only the sidelanes have bushes. 1:2:1 is very ineffective because everyone is always visible.
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WTF since when does TL have [LoL] tags for streams?
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On July 29 2011 00:05 -Kato- wrote:
WTF since when does TL have [LoL] tags for streams?
Since I PMed chill and asked him to include them
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I don't know what i am doing half the time but Kayle seems suprisingly effective. Her W is shit and her passive is shit but Q-E-R do most of the work.
It's especially funny against Singed who you can kite all day long with that 4-second 35% slow wich is pretty harsh for him.
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I think the only way to play Kayle now is to go Malady Cleaver Starks Abyssal ->
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IMO she needs an ad ratio on q and e. Or e at the VERY least.
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Jax ganks on morde are 100% guaranteed kills with a pushed lane.
On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
Gunblade with wits end
This is bad.
On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
standard ap build scales better into lategame I guess.
This is worse. Stop doing that.
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I missed a penta cos too cheap to use exhaust. Fuck me.
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On July 29 2011 01:06 r33k wrote:
Jax ganks on morde are 100% guaranteed kills with a pushed lane.
Ofcourse but Morde should ward, and he shouldn't really be pushing too much until he's got the ward o_o
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On July 28 2011 19:27 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:41 clickrush wrote:On July 28 2011 09:08 LaNague wrote:
tanky IS what u do with melee carries, you cant build them dps because then they blow up in half a second. Ranged carries also blow up in half a second. What you mean is tanks, not melee carries. What makes AD based tanks viable (triforce+tank items / atmogs build) is their CC and/or support spells. Wukong has neither. So building him as a tank seems like building akali as a tank or master yi. I'am not saying that you should only build dps on a melee carry. But the less utility a champion provides the more damage he has to do IMO. "Melee carries" and your definition of "Tanks" are the same thing. "blowing up in half a second" is more manageable when you can stay out of range of all but 1 person and shoot them. As a melee to hit someone you will be in range of most of their team so you must always be prepared for focus fire. Triforce/tank or atmogs are not the only viable builds for tanky dps either. The general trend is right though; pick builds with crazy effiicient hybrid builds because building pure damage items that ranged AD build and pure tank items will leave you will less overall stats.
your dodged my argument completely there. building him as a tank (or tanky or whatever) like you would build jarvan or lee sin doesnt cut it for a champion that provides 0 utility. Why would you pick wukong over lee sin when he provides nothing but damage while lee brings shields, an in-built randuins and a positional knockup?
wukongs utiliy and sustain is just lackluster compared to atmogs/triforce tanks right now. Even if you have more overall stats with a tank build you will have less dps. So either A) wukong is underpowered or B) he should be built more offensively. No?
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On July 29 2011 01:06 r33k wrote:Jax ganks on morde are 100% guaranteed kills with a pushed lane. This is bad. Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 23:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
standard ap build scales better into lategame I guess. This is worse. Stop doing that.
How do you build jax?
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EPT
