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Philosopher's Stone: 15 HP/5, 8 MP/5
HP/5 is valued at 29 gold/point (based off of regrowth pendant)
MP/5 is valued at 55.7 gold/point (based off of meki pendant)
Net worth before factoring in gold/10: ~881 gold
Cost Efficiency: 881/800 = 110%
Avarice Blade: 12% Crit Chance
Crit is valued at 50 gold/point (based off of brawler's gloves)
Net worth before factoring in gold/10: 600 gold
Cost Efficiency: 600/750 = 80%
Kage's Lucky Pick: 25 Ability Power
AP is valued at 21.75 gold/point (based off of amp tome)
Net worth before factoring in gold/10: ~544 gold
Cost Efficiency: 544/765 = 71%
Heart of Gold: 200 HP
HP is valued at 2.64 gold/point (based off of ruby crystal)
Net worth before factoring in gold/10: ~528 gold
Cost Efficiency: 528/825 = 64%
UPDATED 8/14/2012
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get two of them philos on ma alistar and outlast any vlad player in the world
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Its so funny, when I started to play LoL a year ago... I rush Philosopher's Stone every game and all my team call me bad, noob, shit player =(
And wdf, 1 year later, Philosopher's Stone is da new FOTM??
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philostone used to cost over 200 gold more, give the same stats and not build into anything.
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*and riot steadily nerfed all the other overly-efficient items
That's right, folks. Nerfing is the answer to every balance problem. 
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On May 20 2011 00:40 myopia wrote:*and riot steadily nerfed all the other overly-efficient items That's right, folks. Nerfing is the answer to every balance problem.
QQ me a river. Nerfing other items was correct and nerfing Philostone is the right way to fix this current imbalance.
In the meantime, run 0 Mp5 and rush double philostone on all laners with mana. Thank me later.
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Pretty simple evidence for philo stone nerfs, but in the meantime abuse that roaming meta
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Step 1) Make philo stone hyper cost effective
Step 2) Nerf heart of gold
Step 3) Make philo stone build into tenacity item
????
Step win) Philostone on everyone
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more evidence of philo stone being OP
1) 800g to build philo stone, sells back for 400g
2) upgrade to Eleisa's miracle for 400g, sell back for 840g
3) net gain 40g (assuming you were selling the philo stone anyway)
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You upgrade and then sell it for extra money? Hilarious. Are there any other items like that?
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nope, it's the only one that works that way. It works out like that since doran's and gold/10 items sell for 50%, while other items sell for 70%. The other gold/10 upgrades are too expensive to net profit.
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I never realized that, but it makes sense to me. Lawl, still retarded though.
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On May 20 2011 00:37 Mogwai wrote:
philostone used to cost over 200 gold more, give the same stats and not build into anything.
ít didnt give gold per 5 either 
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On May 20 2011 02:34 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 00:37 Mogwai wrote:
philostone used to cost over 200 gold more, give the same stats and not build into anything. ít didnt give g5 either
yes it did. unless I'm super trippin' balls, it has given gold/10 since like, november of 2009.
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Why would they name it a Philosopher's Stone if it didn't have gold/10?
Also according to LoL wiki it has had gold/10 before Sept of 09.
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I certainly had gold/10 when I started LoL, but that only was like half a year ago...
Guess I actually might dig up my Regrowth opening on Ashe again. It's not exactly good against burst though (roamers!). I was using armor seals and MP5L glyphs lately, so that would then change to MRL glyphs which is at least some extra safety.
I wonder how it will fare.
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My team got mad at me when I bought my fourth Philosopher's Stone.
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yeah costing that way with regen items doesn't work
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I personally think they should nerf the stats on Philo stone, not the cost. If a gold/10 item costs 1k+, then there's really no point in getting it at all 'cause the up front investment is too high. I think it'd still be well worth it if they just nerf the regen.
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On May 20 2011 04:17 EmeraldSparks wrote:
My team got mad at me when I bought my fourth Philosopher's Stone.
tell them they nubs and rage at them. 4 philostone superpro :p.
I think 2 is a good number, 3 is pushing it but maybe good if you get 3 earlier than 10 minutes. 4 is too many.
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On May 20 2011 04:18 UniversalSnip wrote:
yeah costing that way with regen items doesn't work
no no you are super wrong regen stacking is overpowered
everybody would be carting around double FoNs if regen stacked npnp
On May 20 2011 04:24 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 04:17 EmeraldSparks wrote:
My team got mad at me when I bought my fourth Philosopher's Stone. tell them they nubs and rage at them. 4 philostone superpro :p. I think 2 is a good number, 3 is pushing it but maybe good if you get 3 earlier than 10 minutes. 4 is too many.
you got to go big or go home
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fknoobs making fun of my shit. I'm not actually trolling you guys, Philostone is legit straight up overpowered and I think it's crazy to not buy at least 1 on most laners.
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On May 20 2011 04:28 Mogwai wrote:
fknoobs making fun of my shit. I'm not actually trolling you guys, Philostone is legit straight up overpowered and I think it's crazy to not buy at least 1 on most laners.
I've actually been buying one or two philosopher's stones in every game where I'm not trying to rush Sheen, IE, or planning to rambo super hardcore. It's been working out decently, although sometimes I do regret that whenever I get barely killed due to not having 200 HP or whatever it basically kills your investment.
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How can people joke about it's imbaness. Its clear as the light of day.
I get it on most of my lanes besides when I play AP carries or ranged AD carries. Will try it on them later but I think getting damage earlier and dominating your lane with them is more important.
On Tanks and Tanky dps and supports on the other hand...
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On May 20 2011 04:28 Mogwai wrote:
fknoobs making fun of my shit. I'm not actually trolling you guys, Philostone is legit straight up overpowered and I think it's crazy to not buy at least 1 on most laners.
well you know I've been pimping this item as the new op ever since hog nerf
I'm just saying calculating regen doesn't really work off pendant
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On May 20 2011 04:52 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 04:28 Mogwai wrote:
fknoobs making fun of my shit. I'm not actually trolling you guys, Philostone is legit straight up overpowered and I think it's crazy to not buy at least 1 on most laners. well you know I've been pimping this item as the new op ever since hog nerf I'm just saying calculating regen doesn't really work off pendant
why do you think you can't calculate regen like that?
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Calculating regen off of regrowth pendant and meki is fine. Philo stone is literally the only item in the game where costing regen like that gives you numbers that at first glance seem weird (well maybe Force of Nature also), and that's because philo stone is OP.
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Hm...
It is pretty efficient and all that, but I'm not sure who I'd get it on...
I mean, it does slow down my other items by 800g, and I'd probably rather just get a Catalyst on many heroes, which can then build to RoA or Banshee's, both of which are goddamn awesome...
I dunno...
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even guys I get cata on, I'm still opening a single philostone now (like, singed for example). I mean, on a tank/bruiser/support with mana, I think you're crazy to not get at least 1. Casters are more debatable, but it adds a ton of sustainability to anyone in lane (much moreso than cata, for whatever that's worth).
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using philo, you can now forgo all of your regen seals/glyphs and pick up the extra defensive stats (MR/armor/HP)
its a high sustainability item, allowing you to farm and harass more. The extra defensive stats from seals glyphs only amplify this. It pays for itself in g/10 in ~26m and when is your game not going that long (unless its completely one-sided and you surrender)
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On May 20 2011 05:54 volcryn wrote:
using philo, you can now forgo all of your regen seals/glyphs and pick up the extra defensive stats (MR/armor/HP)
its a high sustainability item, allowing you to farm and harass more. The extra defensive stats from seals glyphs only amplify this. It pays for itself in g/10 in ~26m and when is your game not going that long (unless its completely one-sided and you surrender)
uh 90% of my games don't go 26 minutes past the time where I pick a philo up.
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I guess my average game time is ~35 minutes, so it never feels like its setting me back
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Had a game where our mid Kassa got 2 philos to sustain vs a Vlad. Worked out well vs hextech stack. He just spammed q/e on creeps and got similarly farmed. =D
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I think when you get it by is still the most important factor.
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On May 20 2011 04:54 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 04:52 UniversalSnip wrote:On May 20 2011 04:28 Mogwai wrote:
fknoobs making fun of my shit. I'm not actually trolling you guys, Philostone is legit straight up overpowered and I think it's crazy to not buy at least 1 on most laners. well you know I've been pimping this item as the new op ever since hog nerf I'm just saying calculating regen doesn't really work off pendant why do you think you can't calculate regen like that?
Because the item simply isn't that good. It's overpowered but it wasn't good enough to compete with the oldschool of broken 'static stats' tank items. Reverie is not over 900 gold above efficiency not including the active. This method of calculation does not reflect regen item's actual in game value, it's worthless.
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it's not worthless, just not nearly as good as 'math' makes it out to be.
regen as a stat is wonky as many people have said. worth alot until the fight actually starts, but then it adds almost no power to you.
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On May 20 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:
it's not worthless, just not nearly as good as 'math' makes it out to be.
It's not just 'not worthless' the item is op
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Yellow runes give you 3.69 mp5. That's 221 gold worth of mana regen.
Yellow armor runes give you 12.69 armor, or 126 gold worth of armor.
However that tiny advantage goes out the window if you stay in lane long enough to get 4 more creep kills.
I always thought that at the end of the day mp5 runes were ultimately to delegate mana regen to runes so that you could rush deathcap or ie. Right?
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On May 20 2011 14:38 MobutuTheWindSeeker wrote:
Yellow runes give you 3.69 mp5. That's 221 gold worth of mana regen.
Yellow armor runes give you 12.69 armor, or 126 gold worth of armor.
However that tiny advantage goes out the window if you stay in lane long enough to get 4 more creep kills.
I always thought that at the end of the day mp5 runes were ultimately to delegate mana regen to runes so that you could rush deathcap or ie. Right?
Scaling Mana regen scales far better than scaling armor does, and is less important in the early game than another 100-50% armor at level 1. Regen is also not as valuable when you don't have a full ability set, whereas Armor is stronger in fights under those conditions, where every champion autoattacks.
I'm also not sure where you got that gold number for armor - the most efficient armor is Chain Mail, which is 15.55g / Armor. Using that number, Flat Armor runes are worth 197 gold, and compared to Cloth Armor's 16.67 / Armor ratio for level 1, they're worth 211.5g
Scaling Mana Regen doesn't break ahead of flat armor until level 7. Scaling Mana Regen runes give you .585 mp5 / level, for a total of 586.5g worth of regen (10.53 mp5). That's 32.58 gold / level. On some champs, they're still really important because you're an enormous mana hog, but on many champs, just waiting for Philo Stone(s) / Catalyst is enough.
Take a champion like Janna, who has 12.8 armor at level 1 - flat armor yellows double her base armor straight up, and make you way harder to gib in the early game. On Rammus, the beefiest champion in the game, you're still getting another 50% armor from them. Flat Regen, and especially regen/level, just can't compare to that kind of power.
Sidenote:
Scaling Armor runes give you 1.35 armor / level. That's 21 gold / level, for a total of 378 gold worth of armor (24.3). Flat armor's way better because champions gain armor / level and bonus defense's effect is usually most pronounced at level 1.
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I wish old me could see people talking about Philo being OP.
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Wow. Just tried this on malz, taking off my mana regen yellow and blues and putting in armor and mr per lvls. With 2 philostones I don't have ANY hp or mana problems going 9/0/21. (I used to go 0/9/21) I have to manage a tad better early game but after the first stone it's not so bad and after 2 forget about it. More then enough.
You get items SOoo much faster. Great find!
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2011 16:45 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Wow. Just tried this on malz, taking off my mana regen yellow and blues and putting in armor and mr per lvls. With 2 philostones I don't have ANY hp or mana problems going 9/0/21. (I used to go 0/9/21) I have to manage a tad better early game but after the first stone it's not so bad and after 2 forget about it. More then enough.
You get items SOoo much faster. Great find!
The question is why you would have mana or HP problems on Malz to begin with, given that Cata is core on him, that he's such a strong laner to begin with, and he has a mana restore mechanic. 
But yeah, Philo is hella lame right now on so many people right now.
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I never had mana problems with mana regen blues and yellows and ya I made cata first item.
But I'm liking this armor per lvl MR per level and going at least 1 philo before core items. If I last hit well and get a kill, I go double philo before core items. Worth the cost. Again, very nice find.
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I still can't decide if the philo openings are worth it. When you've got two philo stones, you essentially have the same regen as if you were constantly drinking a health and mana potion 24/7. Pretty nice.
But in my experiments on casters, rushing cata still feels so much stronger.
What item would you open if you were going to philo rush? Feels really strange showing up to lane as malz or tree with a regrowth pendant.
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you could also open boots, fairy charm or d-ring. I think regrowth #1 though.
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Philo is beast in many scenarios, but I don't think you should build them at all if you're mid. It's nearly impossible to die and not farm that you're just delaying your core. Also not that worth it if your champ has a way to sustain himself, unless you're aiming to out-harass your opponent and zone him / push him out of lane.
If you're a support champion that's mana hungry early on, you could open 2 fairy charms and pots.
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Since Jarman is free to play this week on EU, I open with 2 Philos. It's insane, really. Never have to back, never have to fear for life or whatever. Just stay in lane 24/7 and farm up like a boss. Then go with the Warmogs -> Atmas FotM and you have yourself a beasty char. In my regular noob/troll games, I get 2 Warmogs -> Atmas so fast, it's incredible. Maybe other people are just bad and give me no fight for farm on the lane, no idea.
Can't try Jarizard/Jarmander(?) coz people are baddies, yet someone has to DEMACIAAA the other team, though.
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Impossible to die mid? what?
Anyway I always build early philos on alistar mid because it gives me the hp/mana regen to do whatever the fuck I want and be safe, even against the cheesiest vlad build possible.
I've also killed alistars who goes straight sheen or more doran rings, it just doesnt give you the hp regen you may need to able to zone or go toe to toe with a strong AP like malz/vlad.
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On May 20 2011 17:28 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I never had mana problems with mana regen blues and yellows and ya I made cata first item.
But I'm liking this armor per lvl MR per level and going at least 1 philo before core items. If I last hit well and get a kill, I go double philo before core items. Worth the cost. Again, very nice find.
what you've actually discovered is that mana regen runes are really bad post-nerf
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I've been opening double faerie charm + pot on cho/gp for a while now but sometimes you really wonder if it's worth it over dring
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On May 21 2011 05:42 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 17:28 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I never had mana problems with mana regen blues and yellows and ya I made cata first item.
But I'm liking this armor per lvl MR per level and going at least 1 philo before core items. If I last hit well and get a kill, I go double philo before core items. Worth the cost. Again, very nice find. what you've actually discovered is that mana regen runes are really bad post-nerf
None of my pages have mana regen on them anymore after the nerf. Even if you've got like swain or anivia those are characters you're going to itemize for and/or or hog blue, so I'd really just rather have the extra armor and mres.
Initially I was going to say that I think 2 philo stone is a waste (after all farming that second philo takes a long time compared to the first if you start health pendant), but on some characters like Alistar 2 stone actually feels really strong. You never have to B, ever, and Alistar doesn't really need tank items badly so if you get in trouble you just ult/Q/W and then a minute later you're back to full HP from 2 philos + roar, roaming around and being a complete boss.
Still, 2 stones (or even 1 stone) on someone like Kog Maw with bad base damage and no escapes just seems to be asking for trouble. I think I'll try it though...
Overall I'd take one health pendant over two faerie charms on most champs. Maybe on Cho I can see going charms since he needs the mana, but at the same time with health pendant you become nearly unharassable and I like that. =)
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I've been opening either double Philosophers or Philosopher Avarice Gold every game on Jarvan where I don't desperately need items to not die.
It seems to work.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Also, whenever you sell a Philo stone, should always try and upgrade it to that tenacity item it builds into. Upgrade is 400 gold, but you sell for 440 more if you upgrade it, so free 40 gold.
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On May 20 2011 02:18 volcryn wrote:
more evidence of philo stone being OP
1) 800g to build philo stone, sells back for 400g
2) upgrade to Eleisa's miracle for 400g, sell back for 840g
3) net gain 40g (assuming you were selling the philo stone anyway)
On page 1
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I believe this opens up a new era of trolling for me
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How does the philostone nerf (and unique passive nerf) affect the strength of these items?
I run Jarvan, and I no longer stack philo stones/HoG's. Should I continue to do so?
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Philo stone still 121% efficiency so just one of each should be fine.
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Well, it's no longer worth stacking multiple copy of the same item but I have no idea why you would stop buying one of them all of a sudden
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On June 24 2011 09:31 Goshawk. wrote:
Well, it's no longer worth stacking multiple copy of the same item but I have no idea why you would stop buying one of them all of a sudden
Yea even with the slight health regen nerf, philo stone is still a great opening for most.
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on jarman I run single philo, no HoG. On supports and lots of tanks I run 1 HoG + 1 Philo. Thing about it on Jarman is that he farms too well for me to feel good about buying a HoG.
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On June 24 2011 10:11 Mogwai wrote:
on jarman I run single philo, no HoG. On supports and lots of tanks I run 1 HoG + 1 Philo. Thing about it on Jarman is that he farms too well for me to feel good about buying a HoG.
I feel the same way. I go regrowth --> philo and then usually Warmogs.
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i dont know why they didnt nerf the actual gold/5 instead of artificially restricting op items.
If they felt they gave too much gold, just nerf it?
Or if they have too many other good stats, nerf those.
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@LaNague Gold/5 is major part of support character strategy and gold nerf would make these items obsolete . ( ppl would rush big items instead )
There are 4x G/5 items and each class of characters benefits from specific G/5 item ( many can use 2x some even 3) G/5 items shined coz characters could build 4x Hogs witch fit perfectly with thir characters role AND get g/5 passive.
Now you still can build 4x different G/5 items , but since it wount be cost effective to make avarice blade on Taric he wount. This change still lets ppl stack G/5 items , but now they need to rethink gains vs cost.
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This really seems like exactly the wrong way to nerf this imbalance. It's like they are trying to mediate the difference between its use in EU and US meta. If they are ok with philo stone being imba as long as you aren't obviously "abusing" it by stacking them, it implies that the game's balance is fine as long as they nerf whatever big groups of people are raving about at the moment. At that rate upper level play will be perpetually unbalanced because of how long it takes for their strategies to gain popularity.
I really like the competing metagame aspect that came to a head in dreamhack and this change seems designed to direct people to playing closer to a weird compromise between the two meta's instead of allowing them to develop naturally.
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wtf are you talking about the nerf worked perfectly
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I don't really think I understand Attakjing either, Philo gave too much regen for it's value --> fixed, Eleisa upgrade gave free gold for selling it after --> fixed, stacking philo ultra gay ---> fixed.
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Miracle upgrade still nets you 10 gold.
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On June 25 2011 00:15 Mogwai wrote:
Miracle upgrade still nets you 10 gold.
Wtf still?
It still requires an additional 100 gold to get 30 less gold though
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Math nerd time!
Gold/10 item costs X gold and upgrades into a non-Gold/10 item for an additional Y gold.
Selling the gold/10 item will give you X/2 gold back
Selling the upgrade will give you 7(X + Y)/10 gold back
In order to solve when the upgrade cost pays for itself, we simply need to look for when the difference between those 2 sell costs is equal to the cost of the upgrade itself, in equation terms:
7(X + Y)/10 - X/2 = Y
7X/10 + 7Y/10 - X/2 = Y
2X/10 + 7Y/10 = Y
2X/10 = 3Y/10
2/3 * X = Y
So any time the upgrade cost from a gold/10 item is less than 2/3 the cost of the gold/10 item itself, you will net gold to upgrade before selling. Philostone costs 800, so as long as Miracle's recipe cost is below 533, it will always net you gold to upgrade prior to selling.
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Could you update the OP smash? Love you long time
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done, still waiting on the long time love.
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Bumping because Neo reminded me this thread exists.
Updated math for HoG:
Heart of Gold: 200HP
HP is valued at 2.64 gold/point (based off of ruby crystal)
Net worth before factoring in gold/10: ~528 gold
Cost Efficiency: 528/825 = ~64%
It's now the most inefficient GP10 item. By a long shot.
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Yet, HOG is still one of the most bought Gold item (after Philo) because item-wise, it will build into something relevant.
I'm willing to bet that Support would probably be ignored Philo if it didn't build into Shurelya
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United States37500 Posts
Bump.
Thanks for Smash for updates. Should reflect both HoG HP nerf and Philo HP Regen nerf that went live on the Zyra patch.
HoG is now the least gold efficient GP/10 to buy.
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ah gp5 with its very own thread. i buy gp5 on many champs, and i didnt realize why it felt so much better to have them, then to play a game without getting 1-2 until i looked at your passive gold gain.
your passive gold gained is 13 per 10sec. adding one gp5 item increases your net gp10 by 38%. having 3 more then doubles your passive gold gained.
that said, i find 2 gp5 items to be the sweet spot (especially on junglers).
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I rarely see locket of iron solari and almost never see Randuin's Omen built on supports. It's so expensive, and most supports want to max their CDR and often build an aegis before thinking of upgrading their HOG (If they can somehow afford an item like Randuins, then FH is probably a better choice.) Philo is more than just shurelias, it's cost-efficient regen on a type of character that needs regen to function well.
For supports (or junglers), If you drop the HOG, you can build Aegis about earlier . By this point, the HP HOG would have given you is even less cost-efficient, because Aegis is MUCH more efficient for survivability stats than ruby crystal is.
How much earlier?
Well, let's take a support who has a philo (and boots), GP10 quints + 4 points greed. That gives them 23 GP10 (13 base, 5 from rune/mastery, 5 from philo.) Aegis will take 14 minutes to build up.
Now lets say they get a HOG first. The HoG will take them 6 minutes, then they get 28 GP10, and the Aegis will take them 12 more minutes after the HOG. I'd rather have the aegis 4 minutes sooner. Obviously we're buying wards in here, but we're also getting a tiny handful of CS, maybe an assist, and any further sources of gold devalue GP10 items, because if you have other gold sources
Now, if you get like first blood on support (oops?) or some other kind of unexpected early lead, then getting a gp10 item with it early can be good, because that's probably not going to happen again, and ultimately, you'll probably still get your Aegis before the 20 minute mark or so. So using your gold to increase your later income isn't devalued the way it would be for other champions, who could instead get offensive items and bully around their opponent better, thus getting more cs or causing the enemy to lose CS (just as good as getting it yourself.)
On other characters besides support, GP10s should be VERY situational.
For example, if TF can't pop the creepwave quickly, he has less time to roam when he ganks, which means he'll have lost more CS by the time he gets back. His ganks are also less scary, and thus somewhat less likely to net a kill (though this is much harder to measure, and can be written off as "well they only REALLY need my stun to net a kill.")
If Irelia is chillin in her lane, farming under turret, and then goes back to buy around level 5, she can get GP10s or not. The consideration is this: If I buy a Phage instead, will I be able to fight the opposing laner better, allowing me to chase them away with my combo? Or will I still be sitting under my turret passively farming? Will the extra AD allow me to miss fewer CS under the tower? If my jungler comes and they don't see him, will he escape if I don't get the phage? Will he get away regardless if I do get the phage?
Remember, as irelia, you're hitting a strong point soon, and factor this in your decision. (level 7-9 irelia scary!)
The same question can be asked about proper defensive items vs GP10 if you're worried about tower dives against you. Chain mail->Warden's mail might serve you better here than HOG.
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United States23745 Posts
Since GP10 items is a banned topic in GD, Neo gave me permission to bump this thread. I'm interested in having a discussion on the current state of GP10.
I honestly almost never build GP10 items anymore. Sightstone+Rune and Masteries seem to supply enough gold throughout the game. That said, I still see pros pick up Philo Stone all of the time and I wonder why this is. No one really builds Shurelia's anymore and the stats on Philo have been gutted pretty hard. So why do you think pros still buy it? Out of habit? What does the rest of the TL community think about the current state of GP10s?
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United States37500 Posts
I only build GP10s on Janna nowadays. Philo, Pick, Ruby Sightstone, Morellonomicon is the typical build order.
Outside of Janna, I feel like Aegis or Locket first is a much better buy. Janna's kit benefits largely from both the 20% CDR and Mana regen. I also max Q first on Janna.
Edit: I also think Shurelia's a pretty subpar support item nowadays but it works nice with Janna as well since it synergizes with her passive.
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if your goal is to sort of stagnate and just wait and sit on your hands until an opportunity arises (i.e. wait in strategic location (e.g. at tower to defend) and look for an initiation opportunity or simply heal and stall the enemy's push if you're at a disadvantage, such as on sona (and perhaps lulu? in general more "supporty" ranged supports) i feel philo is still an okay item to wait on because the stats are somewhat relevant and gp/10 is good. on melee supports (esp those with sustain in some f orm) i feel just sightstone if you need it and fighting items such as aegis, locket, tabi is better for the most part. because if you're playing stall at tower with those champions you're gonna have a bad time relative to say sona or lulu even if you do get philo.
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Sometimes I get philo on mummy in jungle before spirit stone if I feel like I can afford it, but I'm pretty sure it's a 0 EV buy and I could be getting something better like a kindlegem or parts of aegis. Still, I run 0/9/21 mummy sometimes depending on MU and that extra gold gen means you hit your peaks at certain parts of the game a little faster while sacrificing a bit of early tank stats.
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I very often buy Philo on supports, but I then rush it into a Reverie a lot of the time.
My typical support build is Philo -> Kindlegem -> evaluate game and go for Reverie or Locket depending on what's up -> Sightston after one or both are complete.
People overvalue Sightstone quite a bit I think. It's a super efficient GP5 that doesn't build into anything, not an essential item.
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I feel philo is pretty standard on all supports. The receipe pays itself off after 10 minutes (340 gold cost) plus I like building Reverie later anyway, it just flows into the game.
Ruby Sightstone is pretty efficient IMO. Pays receipe off after 8 wards and you definitely will be putting down at least 20 sightstone wards in a game as support. In late game after you got everything else you need, you could sell it and get a better item, I've had a friend who sold it and bought deathcap as support lux in a 50 minute game.
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On April 27 2013 12:21 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Sometimes I get philo on mummy in jungle before spirit stone if I feel like I can afford it, but I'm pretty sure it's a 0 EV buy and I could be getting something better like a kindlegem or parts of aegis. Still, I run 0/9/21 mummy sometimes depending on MU and that extra gold gen means you hit your peaks at certain parts of the game a little faster while sacrificing a bit of early tank stats.
If your peak does not involve a Shurelyas, i really doubt that there are any timing that you can hit better by first buying a Philo.
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Someone should update the OP with the new GP10 values in season 3. And sadly remove heart of gold. I kinda miss that thing.
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On April 29 2013 13:37 Leeto wrote:
Someone should update the OP with the new GP10 values in season 3. And sadly remove heart of gold. I kinda miss that thing.
Partly stolen from Lol wiki, but here ya go..
Philo costs 700g and gives 792g of stats. Gold efficiency is 113%
Kage's Lucky Pick costs 765g and gives 544g of stats. Gold efficiency is 71%. Additionally it will take abit over 9 minutes to pay for itself.
Avarice blade costs 800g and gives 500g of stats. Gold efficiency is 62,5%. It will take 16 minutes and 40 seconds to pay for itself. Additionally every time you kill a minion you reduce this timer by 6,7 seconds.
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Man I remember way back when I would play Malphite with four Hearts of Gold and a Philo Stone ;P.
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I did some really simple math on g/10 things, when it was a free subject i the april fools thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405622¤tpage=13#244 and also #258.
Summary: Sightstone, and especially Ruby Sightstone, are the best G/10 items available, even in worst case scenarios.
Not including any masteries or runes, a "real" item will be afforded around 30 minutes, the greatest variables being assists and towers. Also worth noting, this is regardless of if you get both G/10 or not.
Personal conclusion: Get philo stone if have use of it (and who can't use good reg?), and only Kage's if you'll have a good enough early game to make do without other (better) stats, as well as are expecting a really long game.
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EPT
