On June 24 2011 09:31 Goshawk. wrote:
Well, it's no longer worth stacking multiple copy of the same item but I have no idea why you would stop buying one of them all of a sudden

Yea even with the slight health regen nerf, philo stone is still a great opening for most.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

June 24 2011 01:11 GMT

#63

on jarman I run single philo, no HoG. On supports and lots of tanks I run 1 HoG + 1 Philo. Thing about it on Jarman is that he farms too well for me to feel good about buying a HoG.

HazMat

United States17077 Posts

June 24 2011 01:52 GMT

#64

On June 24 2011 10:11 Mogwai wrote:
on jarman I run single philo, no HoG. On supports and lots of tanks I run 1 HoG + 1 Philo. Thing about it on Jarman is that he farms too well for me to feel good about buying a HoG.

I feel the same way. I go regrowth --> philo and then usually Warmogs.

LaNague

Germany9118 Posts

June 24 2011 02:06 GMT

#65

i dont know why they didnt nerf the actual gold/5 instead of artificially restricting op items.

If they felt they gave too much gold, just nerf it?
Or if they have too many other good stats, nerf those.

NightWalks

Latvia252 Posts

June 24 2011 05:59 GMT

#66

@LaNague Gold/5 is major part of support character strategy and gold nerf would make these items obsolete . ( ppl would rush big items instead )
There are 4x G/5 items and each class of characters benefits from specific G/5 item ( many can use 2x some even 3) G/5 items shined coz characters could build 4x Hogs witch fit perfectly with thir characters role AND get g/5 passive.
Now you still can build 4x different G/5 items , but since it wount be cost effective to make avarice blade on Taric he wount. This change still lets ppl stack G/5 items , but now they need to rethink gains vs cost.

Attakijing

United States693 Posts

June 24 2011 07:59 GMT

#67

This really seems like exactly the wrong way to nerf this imbalance. It's like they are trying to mediate the difference between its use in EU and US meta. If they are ok with philo stone being imba as long as you aren't obviously "abusing" it by stacking them, it implies that the game's balance is fine as long as they nerf whatever big groups of people are raving about at the moment. At that rate upper level play will be perpetually unbalanced because of how long it takes for their strategies to gain popularity.

I really like the competing metagame aspect that came to a head in dreamhack and this change seems designed to direct people to playing closer to a weird compromise between the two meta's instead of allowing them to develop naturally.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

June 24 2011 15:04 GMT

#68

wtf are you talking about the nerf worked perfectly

BouBou.865

Netherlands814 Posts

June 24 2011 15:07 GMT

#69

I don't really think I understand Attakjing either, Philo gave too much regen for it's value --> fixed, Eleisa upgrade gave free gold for selling it after --> fixed, stacking philo ultra gay ---> fixed.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

June 24 2011 15:15 GMT

#70

Miracle upgrade still nets you 10 gold.

101toss

3232 Posts

June 24 2011 15:25 GMT

#71

On June 25 2011 00:15 Mogwai wrote:
Miracle upgrade still nets you 10 gold.

Wtf still?

It still requires an additional 100 gold to get 30 less gold though

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

June 24 2011 15:38 GMT

#72

Math nerd time!

Gold/10 item costs X gold and upgrades into a non-Gold/10 item for an additional Y gold.

Selling the gold/10 item will give you X/2 gold back
Selling the upgrade will give you 7(X + Y)/10 gold back

In order to solve when the upgrade cost pays for itself, we simply need to look for when the difference between those 2 sell costs is equal to the cost of the upgrade itself, in equation terms:

7(X + Y)/10 - X/2 = Y
7X/10 + 7Y/10 - X/2 = Y
2X/10 + 7Y/10 = Y
2X/10 = 3Y/10
2/3 * X = Y

So any time the upgrade cost from a gold/10 item is less than 2/3 the cost of the gold/10 item itself, you will net gold to upgrade before selling. Philostone costs 800, so as long as Miracle's recipe cost is below 533, it will always net you gold to upgrade prior to selling.

Lanzoma

Mexico813 Posts

June 24 2011 17:55 GMT

#73

Could you update the OP smash? Love you long time

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

June 24 2011 18:09 GMT

#74

done, still waiting on the long time love.

sylverfyre

United States8298 Posts

August 14 2012 16:15 GMT

#75

Bumping because Neo reminded me this thread exists.

Updated math for HoG:

Heart of Gold: 200HP
HP is valued at 2.64 gold/point (based off of ruby crystal)
Net worth before factoring in gold/10: ~528 gold
Cost Efficiency: 528/825 = ~64%

It's now the most inefficient GP10 item. By a long shot.

XenOmega

Canada2822 Posts

August 14 2012 16:19 GMT

#76

Yet, HOG is still one of the most bought Gold item (after Philo) because item-wise, it will build into something relevant.
I'm willing to bet that Support would probably be ignored Philo if it didn't build into Shurelya

NeoIllusions

United States37500 Posts

August 14 2012 16:47 GMT

#77

Bump.

Thanks for Smash for updates. Should reflect both HoG HP nerf and Philo HP Regen nerf that went live on the Zyra patch.

HoG is now the least gold efficient GP/10 to buy.

Vaporized

United States1471 Posts

August 14 2012 16:48 GMT

#78

ah gp5 with its very own thread. i buy gp5 on many champs, and i didnt realize why it felt so much better to have them, then to play a game without getting 1-2 until i looked at your passive gold gain.

your passive gold gained is 13 per 10sec. adding one gp5 item increases your net gp10 by 38%. having 3 more then doubles your passive gold gained.

that said, i find 2 gp5 items to be the sweet spot (especially on junglers).

sylverfyre

United States8298 Posts

August 14 2012 16:56 GMT

#79

I rarely see locket of iron solari and almost never see Randuin's Omen built on supports. It's so expensive, and most supports want to max their CDR and often build an aegis before thinking of upgrading their HOG (If they can somehow afford an item like Randuins, then FH is probably a better choice.) Philo is more than just shurelias, it's cost-efficient regen on a type of character that needs regen to function well.

For supports (or junglers), If you drop the HOG, you can build Aegis about earlier . By this point, the HP HOG would have given you is even less cost-efficient, because Aegis is MUCH more efficient for survivability stats than ruby crystal is.

How much earlier?
Well, let's take a support who has a philo (and boots), GP10 quints + 4 points greed. That gives them 23 GP10 (13 base, 5 from rune/mastery, 5 from philo.) Aegis will take 14 minutes to build up.

Now lets say they get a HOG first. The HoG will take them 6 minutes, then they get 28 GP10, and the Aegis will take them 12 more minutes after the HOG. I'd rather have the aegis 4 minutes sooner. Obviously we're buying wards in here, but we're also getting a tiny handful of CS, maybe an assist, and any further sources of gold devalue GP10 items, because if you have other gold sources

Now, if you get like first blood on support (oops?) or some other kind of unexpected early lead, then getting a gp10 item with it early can be good, because that's probably not going to happen again, and ultimately, you'll probably still get your Aegis before the 20 minute mark or so. So using your gold to increase your later income isn't devalued the way it would be for other champions, who could instead get offensive items and bully around their opponent better, thus getting more cs or causing the enemy to lose CS (just as good as getting it yourself.)

On other characters besides support, GP10s should be VERY situational.
For example, if TF can't pop the creepwave quickly, he has less time to roam when he ganks, which means he'll have lost more CS by the time he gets back. His ganks are also less scary, and thus somewhat less likely to net a kill (though this is much harder to measure, and can be written off as "well they only REALLY need my stun to net a kill.")

If Irelia is chillin in her lane, farming under turret, and then goes back to buy around level 5, she can get GP10s or not. The consideration is this: If I buy a Phage instead, will I be able to fight the opposing laner better, allowing me to chase them away with my combo? Or will I still be sitting under my turret passively farming? Will the extra AD allow me to miss fewer CS under the tower? If my jungler comes and they don't see him, will he escape if I don't get the phage? Will he get away regardless if I do get the phage?
Remember, as irelia, you're hitting a strong point soon, and factor this in your decision. (level 7-9 irelia scary!)
The same question can be asked about proper defensive items vs GP10 if you're worried about tower dives against you. Chain mail->Warden's mail might serve you better here than HOG.

onlywonderboy

United States23745 Posts

April 27 2013 00:29 GMT

#80

Since GP10 items is a banned topic in GD, Neo gave me permission to bump this thread. I'm interested in having a discussion on the current state of GP10.

I honestly almost never build GP10 items anymore. Sightstone+Rune and Masteries seem to supply enough gold throughout the game. That said, I still see pros pick up Philo Stone all of the time and I wonder why this is. No one really builds Shurelia's anymore and the stats on Philo have been gutted pretty hard. So why do you think pros still buy it? Out of habit? What does the rest of the TL community think about the current state of GP10s?