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On May 20 2011 14:38 MobutuTheWindSeeker wrote:
Yellow runes give you 3.69 mp5. That's 221 gold worth of mana regen.
Yellow armor runes give you 12.69 armor, or 126 gold worth of armor.
However that tiny advantage goes out the window if you stay in lane long enough to get 4 more creep kills.
I always thought that at the end of the day mp5 runes were ultimately to delegate mana regen to runes so that you could rush deathcap or ie. Right?
Scaling Mana regen scales far better than scaling armor does, and is less important in the early game than another 100-50% armor at level 1. Regen is also not as valuable when you don't have a full ability set, whereas Armor is stronger in fights under those conditions, where every champion autoattacks.
I'm also not sure where you got that gold number for armor - the most efficient armor is Chain Mail, which is 15.55g / Armor. Using that number, Flat Armor runes are worth 197 gold, and compared to Cloth Armor's 16.67 / Armor ratio for level 1, they're worth 211.5g
Scaling Mana Regen doesn't break ahead of flat armor until level 7. Scaling Mana Regen runes give you .585 mp5 / level, for a total of 586.5g worth of regen (10.53 mp5). That's 32.58 gold / level. On some champs, they're still really important because you're an enormous mana hog, but on many champs, just waiting for Philo Stone(s) / Catalyst is enough.
Take a champion like Janna, who has 12.8 armor at level 1 - flat armor yellows double her base armor straight up, and make you way harder to gib in the early game. On Rammus, the beefiest champion in the game, you're still getting another 50% armor from them. Flat Regen, and especially regen/level, just can't compare to that kind of power.
Sidenote:
Scaling Armor runes give you 1.35 armor / level. That's 21 gold / level, for a total of 378 gold worth of armor (24.3). Flat armor's way better because champions gain armor / level and bonus defense's effect is usually most pronounced at level 1.
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I wish old me could see people talking about Philo being OP.
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Wow. Just tried this on malz, taking off my mana regen yellow and blues and putting in armor and mr per lvls. With 2 philostones I don't have ANY hp or mana problems going 9/0/21. (I used to go 0/9/21) I have to manage a tad better early game but after the first stone it's not so bad and after 2 forget about it. More then enough.
You get items SOoo much faster. Great find!
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2011 16:45 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Wow. Just tried this on malz, taking off my mana regen yellow and blues and putting in armor and mr per lvls. With 2 philostones I don't have ANY hp or mana problems going 9/0/21. (I used to go 0/9/21) I have to manage a tad better early game but after the first stone it's not so bad and after 2 forget about it. More then enough.
You get items SOoo much faster. Great find!
The question is why you would have mana or HP problems on Malz to begin with, given that Cata is core on him, that he's such a strong laner to begin with, and he has a mana restore mechanic. 
But yeah, Philo is hella lame right now on so many people right now.
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I never had mana problems with mana regen blues and yellows and ya I made cata first item.
But I'm liking this armor per lvl MR per level and going at least 1 philo before core items. If I last hit well and get a kill, I go double philo before core items. Worth the cost. Again, very nice find.
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I still can't decide if the philo openings are worth it. When you've got two philo stones, you essentially have the same regen as if you were constantly drinking a health and mana potion 24/7. Pretty nice.
But in my experiments on casters, rushing cata still feels so much stronger.
What item would you open if you were going to philo rush? Feels really strange showing up to lane as malz or tree with a regrowth pendant.
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you could also open boots, fairy charm or d-ring. I think regrowth #1 though.
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Mexico813 Posts
Philo is beast in many scenarios, but I don't think you should build them at all if you're mid. It's nearly impossible to die and not farm that you're just delaying your core. Also not that worth it if your champ has a way to sustain himself, unless you're aiming to out-harass your opponent and zone him / push him out of lane.
If you're a support champion that's mana hungry early on, you could open 2 fairy charms and pots.
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Since Jarman is free to play this week on EU, I open with 2 Philos. It's insane, really. Never have to back, never have to fear for life or whatever. Just stay in lane 24/7 and farm up like a boss. Then go with the Warmogs -> Atmas FotM and you have yourself a beasty char. In my regular noob/troll games, I get 2 Warmogs -> Atmas so fast, it's incredible. Maybe other people are just bad and give me no fight for farm on the lane, no idea.
Can't try Jarizard/Jarmander(?) coz people are baddies, yet someone has to DEMACIAAA the other team, though.
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Impossible to die mid? what?
Anyway I always build early philos on alistar mid because it gives me the hp/mana regen to do whatever the fuck I want and be safe, even against the cheesiest vlad build possible.
I've also killed alistars who goes straight sheen or more doran rings, it just doesnt give you the hp regen you may need to able to zone or go toe to toe with a strong AP like malz/vlad.
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On May 20 2011 17:28 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I never had mana problems with mana regen blues and yellows and ya I made cata first item.
But I'm liking this armor per lvl MR per level and going at least 1 philo before core items. If I last hit well and get a kill, I go double philo before core items. Worth the cost. Again, very nice find.
what you've actually discovered is that mana regen runes are really bad post-nerf
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I've been opening double faerie charm + pot on cho/gp for a while now but sometimes you really wonder if it's worth it over dring
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On May 21 2011 05:42 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 17:28 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I never had mana problems with mana regen blues and yellows and ya I made cata first item.
But I'm liking this armor per lvl MR per level and going at least 1 philo before core items. If I last hit well and get a kill, I go double philo before core items. Worth the cost. Again, very nice find. what you've actually discovered is that mana regen runes are really bad post-nerf
None of my pages have mana regen on them anymore after the nerf. Even if you've got like swain or anivia those are characters you're going to itemize for and/or or hog blue, so I'd really just rather have the extra armor and mres.
Initially I was going to say that I think 2 philo stone is a waste (after all farming that second philo takes a long time compared to the first if you start health pendant), but on some characters like Alistar 2 stone actually feels really strong. You never have to B, ever, and Alistar doesn't really need tank items badly so if you get in trouble you just ult/Q/W and then a minute later you're back to full HP from 2 philos + roar, roaming around and being a complete boss.
Still, 2 stones (or even 1 stone) on someone like Kog Maw with bad base damage and no escapes just seems to be asking for trouble. I think I'll try it though...
Overall I'd take one health pendant over two faerie charms on most champs. Maybe on Cho I can see going charms since he needs the mana, but at the same time with health pendant you become nearly unharassable and I like that. =)
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I've been opening either double Philosophers or Philosopher Avarice Gold every game on Jarvan where I don't desperately need items to not die.
It seems to work.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Also, whenever you sell a Philo stone, should always try and upgrade it to that tenacity item it builds into. Upgrade is 400 gold, but you sell for 440 more if you upgrade it, so free 40 gold.
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On May 20 2011 02:18 volcryn wrote:
more evidence of philo stone being OP
1) 800g to build philo stone, sells back for 400g
2) upgrade to Eleisa's miracle for 400g, sell back for 840g
3) net gain 40g (assuming you were selling the philo stone anyway)
On page 1 
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I believe this opens up a new era of trolling for me
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How does the philostone nerf (and unique passive nerf) affect the strength of these items?
I run Jarvan, and I no longer stack philo stones/HoG's. Should I continue to do so?
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Philo stone still 121% efficiency so just one of each should be fine.
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EPT
