EPTWut es a tank? huehuehuehue (splr: Morde es #1) - Page 2
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Darkchylde
United States473 Posts
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Scorcher2k
United States802 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:32 Darkchylde wrote: I consider Singed an off-tank, anybody with a slow or snare (which is pretty much every champ) and is semi-competent can make Singed's job a nightmare. Paired with another tank he can do his job significantly easier and just be unkillable. I can see that argument but wouldn't that apply to everyone else as well? There isn't a tank that is immune to slow/snares so I'm not sure how this changes Singed's viability. I also always run ghost/cleanse on him personally so that isn't really a problem. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:07 Scorcher2k wrote: I don't understand what you are implying here. How are you tanking if you aren't protecting your allies? Are you actually like throwing your body in front of them so that they can't run past you? The goal of a Tank is to protect your allies, you are right. That is what tanks WANT to do. But if they can't do that, that just means they suck at tanking, right? Just because someone is a tank, doesn't mean they are good at tanking. Not all heroes can accomplish their function. The ones who can't, suck. All tanking ever refers to, and should refer to IMO, is if a character is beefy/tough/durable. Thats what it generally means in video games, so I don't see why LoL should get a special definition for it. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
singed is an assassin btw, tank build is shit. | ||
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Scorcher2k
United States802 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:35 Sentenal wrote: All tanking ever refers to, and should refer to IMO, is if a character is beefy/tough/durable. Thats what it generally means in video games, so I don't see why LoL should get a special definition for it. I disagree with you on this point. Take WoW as an example yet again. A disc priest will be beefy/tough/durable, but they are NOT a tank by any means. I'm not giving LoL a special definition but I am trying to apply it specifically to it. On February 04 2011 03:42 Juicyfruit wrote: Singed bad hard tank, need so much farm to be effective, not used to babysit squishes, he himself is the carry and you are suppose to support HIM while he does his antics. The fact that he needs the farm is a very good point but I don't think that should change the fact that he is a tank that can remove an enemy from your allies. If a person playing Singed is not throwing people away from your squishes then I would argue that he is doing it wrong because it isn't hard to do and it is very beneficial. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:45 Scorcher2k wrote: I disagree with you on this point. Take WoW as an example yet again. A disc priest will be beefy/tough/durable, but they are NOT a tank by any means. I'm not giving LoL a special definition but I am trying to apply it specifically to it. Well let me try to rephrase that. The purpose of a "tank" in videogames are those who are designed to suck up damage and not die. IMO Tanks are defined by their purpose. I think this can be universally applied. Is this character meant to try and suck up damage, and then be able to take that damage and not die? If so, then they are a tank. Whether or not they are actually able to do that (for whatever) is an entirely different question, and just tells if said hero is bad at their job or not. So, while I don't know anything about WoW, are "disc priest" designed to suck up damage/not die? If that isn't their purpose, then I agree they aren't a tank, and are rather just "tanky". | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
Also, a disc priest is a terrible example. They might last a while in duels and arenas, but in any sort of raid or party situation, they'll get 2-shotted just like everyone else who isn't a "tank." edit: in prediction of "LoL is a 5v5 WoW arena" tanks in arena fights are rarely called tanks, you simply have dps that are tankier by virtue of their gear. All "tanks" in WoW arenas are just beefy dps, or have an abnormal amount of peels (but still generally dps pretty hard). | ||
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Scorcher2k
United States802 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:55 Sentenal wrote: Well let me try to rephrase that. The purpose of a "tank" in videogames are those who are designed to suck up damage and not die. IMO Tanks are defined by their purpose. I think this can be universally applied. Is this character meant to try and suck up damage, and then be able to take that damage and not die? If so, then they are a tank. Whether or not they are actually able to do that (for whatever) is an entirely different question, and just tells if said hero is bad at their job or not. So, while I don't know anything about WoW, are "disc priest" designed to suck up damage/not die? If that isn't their purpose, then I agree they aren't a tank, and are rather just "tanky". I think I understand now what you're saying. I'm not quite sure how to word this... I agree that a tank is first defined by being something that soaks a lot of damage. However, I think that their ability to actually force that to happen is what makes them a tank. Not the quality of their ability to force the damage to go to them but simply being able to do it period. The reason why I do not think that characters such as Mundo should be considered tanks (and instead as a beefy dps) is because they can not force the damage to turn onto them through anything other than doing damage. I honestly don't think either of us are wrong. This honestly just seems like a difference in opinion. On February 04 2011 04:08 Flakes wrote: edit: in prediction of "LoL is a 5v5 WoW arena" tanks in arena fights are rarely called tanks, you simply have dps that are tankier by virtue of their gear. All "tanks" in WoW arenas are just beefy dps, or have an abnormal amount of peels (but still generally dps pretty hard). Hmm, this is very true. This is also a great example as to why team composition is more important than simply who your tank is. I think you hit the nail on the head. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:35 Sentenal wrote: The goal of a Tank is to protect your allies, you are right. That is what tanks WANT to do. But if they can't do that, that just means they suck at tanking, right? Just because someone is a tank, doesn't mean they are good at tanking. Not all heroes can accomplish their function. The ones who can't, suck. All tanking ever refers to, and should refer to IMO, is if a character is beefy/tough/durable. Thats what it generally means in video games, so I don't see why LoL should get a special definition for it. You got that mixed up. A champ is not a tank and THEN you decide if he is a good or a bad one. A champ is a tank if he IS able to protect his allies and does so. Afaik a tank in WoW has the means to direct all damage to himself and mitigates it that way. But that's only HOW he does it, not WHAT he does: he protects allies. And in the end it doesn't matter how you do it as long as you achieve what you need to. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 04 2011 04:24 spinesheath wrote: You got that mixed up. A champ is not a tank and THEN you decide if he is a good or a bad one. A champ is a tank if he IS able to protect his allies and does so. Afaik a tank in WoW has the means to direct all damage to himself and mitigates it that way. But that's only HOW he does it, not WHAT he does: he protects allies. And in the end it doesn't matter how you do it as long as you achieve what you need to. How you do it is 100% relevant. To continue the WoW example, a discipline priest also protects his allies, but he does so by applying shields, buffs, healing, and repositioning skills--and as such is classified as a healer/support and NOT a tank. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:07 Scorcher2k wrote: I don't understand what you are implying here. How are you tanking if you aren't protecting your allies? Are you actually like throwing your body in front of them so that they can't run past you? he is hardy as fuck,,,, he can fucking throw someone the fuck away from your team mates,,,, he can throw down a fucking 75% slow in front of your fucking team mates,,,, and he is fast as hell to to be able to get to where he needs to be!!!!!! But really, how is he not? *edit for more fuck it's less about how he's not and more about how others are. you put him next to alistar, rammus and shen... what makes him a harder tank than say... amumu (2 hard CC, one of which is massive AoE), blitz (3 CC), Cho (2 CC), Malphite (2 CC, one of which is the #1 initiating skill). What makes shen more of hard tank than them too for that matter? Your classification just seems arbitrary and general consensus is that while the other 3 all conform to what we consider a tank very well, singed sticks out like a sore thumb since he lacks true initiation and reliable hard CC. On February 04 2011 03:45 Scorcher2k wrote: I disagree with you on this point. Take WoW as an example yet again. A disc priest will be beefy/tough/durable, but they are NOT a tank by any means. I'm not giving LoL a special definition but I am trying to apply it specifically to it. The fact that he needs the farm is a very good point but I don't think that should change the fact that he is a tank that can remove an enemy from your allies. If a person playing Singed is not throwing people away from your squishes then I would argue that he is doing it wrong because it isn't hard to do and it is very beneficial. all repositioning moves are situational. sometimes alistar headbutts the enemy trist into your team, sometimes he punts the enemy singed away. sometimes blitz pulls a squishy into your team, sometimes he pulls Garen away. it's just situational. On February 04 2011 04:20 Scorcher2k wrote: I think I understand now what you're saying. I'm not quite sure how to word this... I agree that a tank is first defined by being something that soaks a lot of damage. However, I think that their ability to actually force that to happen is what makes them a tank. Not the quality of their ability to force the damage to go to them but simply being able to do it period. The reason why I do not think that characters such as Mundo should be considered tanks (and instead as a beefy dps) is because they can not force the damage to turn onto them through anything other than doing damage. I honestly don't think either of us are wrong. This honestly just seems like a difference in opinion. everything in here is a difference of opinion. see, I think it's pretty silly to say that a tank needs to be able to force the opposing team to attack them, because honestly, the tanks that do that best are the ones that do damage. a team is more likely to be making the correct play when they try to focus down a Mundo or Garen than they are when they try to kill an Alistar or Rammus, yet it's unanimously accepted that Alistar and Rammus better fit the bill for "tank" than Mundo or Garen. And it has everything to do with CC, which is extremely useful but does nothing more to force the damage to come their way than a Garen on your carry's nuts forces the damage to come his way. On February 04 2011 04:26 Caller wrote: this is wrong title, should be "Wut es a tank? huehuehuehuehue" if I could change it, I would change it to: Wut es a tank? huehuehuehue (splr: Morde es #1) | ||
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ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
Personally I think we should categorize heros in terms of what they do (hero role) for a team instead of what characteristics a hero posses (hero property). For example amumu's hero role should be "initiatior" and one of his properties is being "tanky" (same with Malphite). Taric's hero role would be babysitter/supporter (maybe even ganker) and one of his properties would be "tanky". If you look at DotA/HoN this problem basically doesn't exist. Spectre/Sand Wraith's hero property is "tanky" but her hero role is "hard carry" while Puck/Bubble's hero role is "initiator/ganker" but he's super squishy. When choosing teams people shouldn't look for "tanks", they should look for "initiation". I really like how this guy categorizes in HoN. Of course it's not a one-to-one translation to LoL but the idea is the same (source: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=64274 ) + Show Spoiler + Roles (each hero has a primary and secondary role): Hard-Carry, Carry, Semi-Carry: Carries are typically rather weak in the early stages of the game and need to have a decent gold income through farming to reach their potential. When they do however, they are capable of winning a game almost by themselves. Hard Carries have more potential than Carries who have more potential than Semi- or Soft-Carries. Lower potential ususally means they become effective earlier in the game or they have other strengths and uses but just carrying. Their job is to farm and eventually lead their team to victory in the lategame. Supporter: Supporters are typically heroes who can be effective with few items and gold. They give up last hits in favor of the Carries and focus on denying and harassing. Their item choices are based on what the team needs (supportive items). They are also responsible for warding and counter warding. Ganker: A ganker should be looking for opportunities to team up and kill opponents during the late early and mid game once he reaches his critical level (Usually 6 or 7). Initiator: Initiation is the art of starting the combat with a big advantage for your team. Initiation typically involves one hero instantly appearing next to the enemy team (by means of Portal Key, Flash, Invisibility, ...) and starting the fight with a very powerful ability that is capable of turning the tide in his team's favor (e.g. Whirlpool, Shockwave, Eruption,...). Generally every team needs some kind of initiation to be able win the game. Know how to use your initiation abilities correctly when playing an Initiator! Properties (each hero can have multiple properties): Disabler: A hero with one or more immobilizing abilities. (Dedicated) Roamer: A hero with no fixed lane. Typically a Roamer stays in his opponents' forest and waits for opportunities to gank their short or mid lane from level 1 on. His aim is to keep the enemies undergeared and underleveled and not allowing them to farm. The Roamer however will be outgeared and outleveled himself pretty quickly. Roamers are rarely seen in pubs but they do appear in competitive play. Babysitter: Always a Supporter. Usually a ranged hero with abilities that allow him to protect and/or support a carry hero in the early laning phase. A babysitter will harass the enemies and deny his own creeps while he leaves the last hits and killing blows to his babysat carry whenever possible. He ensures the carry will start to become effective as soon as possible by giving him "free farm". Jungler: A hero who can level up by killing neutral creeps in the forest from level 1 on. This will give the team two solo lanes and usually more overall experience. Tank: A Tank's aim is to draw as much enemy fire on him as possible to allow the rest of the team to move and fight freely. Tanks shine through their high physical and magical damage reduction, high Health pool and tanking related abilities. It is a common misconception to assume that every team needs a tank. You can win games without a tank easily (unlike initiators). Nuker: A hero with one or more directly damaging abilities. These abilities are strongest in the early game and tend to lose power as the game progresses. Pusher: A hero with one or more Spells to destroy creep waves and/or buildings very effectively in the early- and midgame. TLDR: don't even use the word "tank", it only causes confusion. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The first are "pure" tanks. Their job consists of 2 functions: Primarily disrupt the other teams attack plans using utility, and secondarily be really fucking hard to kill. Think amumu or shen or alistar or rammus. They dont necessarily have to initiate, but they could. Where they really shine is their ability to interrupt the opposing teams attack pattern. Gallio is gonna force everyone to attack him. Rammus is going to blow up your carry, ect. As a secondary purpose, they are going to be able to bounce around from target to target, assisting the individual teamfight matchups and have enough health to survive the entire thing or at least long enough to get to each battle "zone." By this I mean shen taunting the enemy carry off your melee dps, then going over and finishing off a caster, then going back and killing the melee dps from the other team. The second group are what I think of as Tanky DPS. This group again has 2 goals. 1st, pick off the enemy squishy, and secondly, disrupt the enemy attack plans by FORCING them to attack you because of your sheer damage output. This group has nasus, singed, mundo, blitz. Note they all have a way to either slow or somehow capture the enemy carry. They force a teamfight not by running in and initiating, but by forcing the enemy team to react to their actions. For example a blitz pull forcing the enemy to engage, nassus or mundo hitting a slow on a out of position champion to where the rest of your team can dive in and the other has to help, or singed running in and flipping someone. After that though, their job in the teamfight is different. They do damage, singling out targets and killing them, forcing the enemy to attack them instead of other targets. Nasus siphoning the enemey carry and casters till they have to leave, singed sticking to a target and keeping them from entering the battle. They have less utility from an assistance to teammate standpoint, but are capable of selecting and shutting down enemy players, or if they can do enough damage, forcing the enemy team to try to focus them down at the expense of your carry. NOTE: the second group are different from "heavy" dps. Irelia, morde, olaf, ect. These champs have no way to force an engagement. Sure, they could catch an out of position champ, but they have no way to do it reliably. In battle, their job is the same as tanky dps, but outside of it they are walking paperweights. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
Olaf slows and runs through CC. Irelia has 99.99% CC reduction and has a dash and a slow/stun. Your distinction between heavy and tanky DPSs is completely nonsensical to me. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
(and therefore there are no tanks in LoL) | ||
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