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United States47024 Posts
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote:
Flat CDR Blues - Duh.
Strongly disagree here. Given that you don't want to spam Shatter, that you generally aren't going to be fast activating-deactivating your ult, and that Attack Speed does more for your heal CD than minor CDR, flat CDR is sort of a weak choice for blues. MR, mp5, and AP/lvl IMO are all stronger choices for Taric.
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote:
Yellows -Flat mana. Why? Because it gives you nearly enough for an extra heal at lvl 1 and nothing scales well with yellow anyway (armor is redundant as hell: you already have the highest in the game with Shatter).
You take armor because as a babysitter and assist whore, you can't plan around being able to itemize it reasonably, beyond Aegis. Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage are cost-effective sources of MR, but most of the strong armor items require too much farm (GA, Randuin, Sunfire, etc.)
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote:
Aegis is MASSIVELY overrated, along with all other aurastacking builds. Only use it when you're the "main tanker" of your team or the only one that doesn't suffer from a support build.
How is Aegis massively overrated? It's one of the most cost-effective sources of balanced survivability in the game, and it's effect on minions folds into your ability to push lanes. That and the fact that it's whole cost is about the same as some of your "small chunk" items.
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On the subject of small-chunk items, Randuin's Omen is actually a good one. The highest single cost required for it is the Chain Mail (700g), and pretty much any part of it + wards can be done on 1k. Frozen Heart is an alright incremental item as well, breaking down to 700 + 400 + 575 + 300 + 300 + 800.
These two are also very good as small chunks, though they're really situational:
Deathfire Grasp - (435 + 330) + (435 + 390 + 420) + 600
Will of the Ancients - (435 + 435 + 330) + 435 + 765
Stark's is notably bad with the 1050 cost and then the 700 combine, as well as Abyssal (860 + 1050). At least Abyssal gives you 2 good items.
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On November 05 2010 10:53 TheYango wrote:Strongly disagree here. Given that you don't want to spam Shatter, that you generally aren't going to be fast activating-deactivating your ult, and that Attack Speed does more for your heal CD than minor CDR, flat CDR is sort of a weak choice for blues. MR, mp5, and AP/lvl IMO are all stronger choices for Taric. Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote:
Yellows -Flat mana. Why? Because it gives you nearly enough for an extra heal at lvl 1 and nothing scales well with yellow anyway (armor is redundant as hell: you already have the highest in the game with Shatter). You take armor because as a babysitter and assist whore, you can't plan around being able to itemize it reasonably, beyond Aegis. Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage are cost-effective sources of MR, but most of the strong armor items require too much farm (GA, Randuin, Sunfire, etc.) Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote:
Aegis is MASSIVELY overrated, along with all other aurastacking builds. Only use it when you're the "main tanker" of your team or the only one that doesn't suffer from a support build. How is Aegis massively overrated? It's one of the most cost-effective sources of balanced survivability in the game, and it's effect on minions folds into your ability to push lanes. That and the fact that it's whole cost is about the same as some of your "small chunk" items.
CDR Blues are helpful for the beginning of the game as they give you ~1-1.5 seconds off your heal and stun straight up. No blue runes scale really well to the lategame anyway.
Shatter is all the armor you ever need on Taric. With Mercs/Chalice and lvl 5 Shatter, Taric is packing over 120 armor/100 MRes by the midgame, easy. That's more than enough if you aren't doing hardcore tanking.
The better "balanced survivability" option is Guardian Angel, but even then, Taric's job is first as a healer, second as a disabler, and 3rd as an offtank. Building straight tank items like Aegis isn't necessary unless your team is relying on you to take hits. If you do build Aegis after the mandatory items, you probably won't get enough gold by the end of the game to get a Nashors or anything else that helps you heal, thus overcommitting to a tanky build and being relatively useless due to your piss-weak, long CD heals and stuns.
Nashor's Tooth greatly increases your ability to heal, which is your most important attribute as it's what Taric really brings to the table. It also lets you keep your ult up longer with MP/5 and AS (which directly relates to mana) and CDR to top it all off. Your ult is infinitely better than Aegis at pushing lanes, so maximizing the time you can keep it up is more important than a marginal midgame-only increase.
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I find Flat CDR blues to be very underwhelming. Visage + X + Utility is plenty of CDR, and if you wind up with Blue just Visage gives you the cap. Armor and MR both scale very well into the lategame, and I think ignoring it in favor of mana you don't particularly need is a mistake. I say that it's not particularly needed simply because Taric's mana needs are very bursty, and there's no way that 16 mp5 or 63 mana outdo 13 armor in the lategame. Mp5 comes much closer, but I have a hard time believing it's better than the damage reduction you get when Taric is strongest.
Even at low (~50) AP, Imbue still heals for 250. Until you get to the late lategame, that's at least 10% of a champion's health, and once you get to that point you're either A) able to afford an AP item or B) losing really badly. You need a -lot- of AP to make 3/4 small heals a fight better than 1/2 larger ones.
That said, though, if you can't take hits in a meaningful way for your team, Taric is honestly not the right pick anymore. Taric really loses a lot of his usefulness without healing himself as well (and without his R healing).
ps: Yango, if you don't find a more qualified tutor, i'll be glad to teach you some Taric-y stuff one day.
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I think Stark's rush is probably viable if you have any of
A) A specialized team composition (very heavy physical with decent resilience)
B) A fed carry whom you can amplify further with it.
C) A champion who can build Aegis and wants to
Unless any of those qualifications are met, I don't think it's a very good rush item because of how long it takes to provide a real benefit to you. Good examples of heroes you'd want to rush a Stark's for include Xin, Olaf, Mundo, Pantheon, Yi, Shaco, Tristana, Corki, Miss Fortune, Ashe, Kog'maw and Twitch. I don't include Tryndamere in this list because although Stark's would improve his DPS, he's not a champ you want other heroes to rush items to support. Probably good for Jax too, but he does a lot of magic damage.
If your team looked something like this:
Taric
Olaf
Corki
Galio
Morgana
You might want to get Stark's as your first big item because not only is your team leaned slightly physical damage-wise, but Galio can carry Aegis as well. Even with a less Aegis-conducive hero in place of Galio, it might still be worth getting early if Olaf or Corki get some quick kills.
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I've been trying out both the Doran's Ring opening and running without Clairvoyance. I think doing either one or the other is stronger than what i've been doing, but doing both is one hell of a mana fuck. I'm tempted to try running mp5pl (or maybe even flat mana) in blue to see what happens.
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United States47024 Posts
To me, there are two issues with Stark's:
1) The cost on the pieces (particularly the Recurve Bow) isn't cheap, and they aren't too great on their own for Taric (and don't build to anything else useful), so its hard to justify if you can't be sure you're going to finish it (e.g. if you get another item like Aegis first).
2) You maximize the benefit of Stark's with a fed carry/physical damage champ, but you can't know going into the game how fed your carry is going to be.
It's something I'd consider picking up post-Aegis if I happen to pick up a few unexpected kills, but otherwise, I'd probably only rush it if I knew beforehand that the team composition for it is right.
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Actual secret to victory: Guinsoo's Rageblade
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/F1eOj.jpg)
Actual new topic of discussion:
Taric - Viable solo lane?
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On November 07 2010 09:57 Niton wrote:Actual secret to victory: Guinsoo's Rageblade Actual new topic of discussion: Taric - Viable solo lane?
Lol, I've fought against one Taric Solo lane ever, he played decently well, but got completely destroyed. I have a hard time imagining a worse sololane.
...
Or you're just trolling -.-?
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United States47024 Posts
Back when I was way lower level, I remember playing Taric in a 1v2 lane, and somehow getting a kill on Sion in a Garen/Sion lane.
I was so much worse at this game then, and so were the people I played with.
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Beating an ashe who builds Tear doesn't make you good Niton 
I got so farmed that game, like 100 CS in 11 minutes or something.
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Taric is viable solo, but he just provides better support in a side lane.
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On November 07 2010 09:57 Niton wrote:Actual secret to victory: Guinsoo's Rageblade Actual new topic of discussion: Taric - Viable solo lane?
depends on the matchup. he's not someone you want high level or high farm, so he needs to be shutting people down for it to be a good idea and I don't think there are many good solos he actually counters. However, I once had to lane as Pantheon vs. a Taric with Armor Runes on a solo lane. It was not pretty, he absolutely butt-fucked me with his ~70 Armor at level 1 and I just could not push him off the damn creep so he had infinite mana and would just stun -> shatter me and continually heal. It was really really gay. But someone with sustained range Harass or a healing debuff should be able to destroy Taric.
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Hey guys, sorry for the thread necro. Just started playing LoL and bought annie as my first hero, I might buy a jungler or a physical dps like garen (not a pussy like yi, maybe pantheon or some other physical melee carry), having lots of success wirg her, but trying out taric right now, while he's free.
Here's my issue:
-Do you build Taric as support?
i.e
-Ability power for mass heals, shatter for the armour and aoe, and stun for the utility in team fights, with your ultimate for the +attack utility, which is really good for a melee comp
-Do you build him as a tank?
-Use the ultimate mostly for the self healing, mass armour, resist since they scale with healing and enough health to survive burst, only use heal for early game
-Do you build him as a hybrid?
Here's where I'm having trouble; Taric's passive means that if you're going for tank or support its basically useless either way, as your poor damage output and slow attack speed means you do almost no damage that 7.5% will make enough difference, and you're building him for teamfights in the mid/late game so you don't need mana regen slowly anyway. His heal also is reduced by 2 seconds every time you hit, so this is what I was testing:
-Go for an early dagger into a quick stinger (90 more gold over a recurve bow, allows a quick dagger for the first laning phase, and 10% less cooldown on heal/stun/shatter coming back up//your ultimate which you want to toggle on/off as it gets high mana the less cooldown the more you can use it without burning mana)
-Use the stinger to eventually get Nagor's Tooth which is 50% attack speed//10 mp5//55 ability power//25% less cooldowns and it not that expensive.
-Obviously merc treads.
-I've been getting chalice for the mana regen as its quite cheap and resist is good with taric because of scaling with healing, and it scales well with the tooth, but I'm not sure on if its worth it, why not get more mana for more burst and in quite situations farm mana with your 1 hit/s auto attack.
-Do I get +attack damage? Seems overboard since it only scales with the passive and midgame onwards you can't do too many damage in teamfights with just autoattack.
-How to I transition? More armour/resist to scale with my healing, perhaps frozen heart for even more cd reduction so I can heal every 2-3 auto attacks? More health for tankiness and its probably cheaper than getting both armour and resist. Do I go for more ability power to have better healing, shatter, and stun damage, as well as slightly better survivability with the ultimate.
I've been finding that I've been getting focused down hard, which gives him no chance to abuse his shatter passive, ultimate passive, team healing and self healing, and active shatter and stun. I know with annie it took me a while before I figured out how to get damage in but keep my distance and run when i need to from a teamfight after getting burst in. Perhaps I need another tank to go in and try to protect weakers with stun//heal and use that oppurtunity to get auto hits in to heal more and abuse the ultimate just for the damage?
I guess the reason I've been doing this attack speed opening is that you get a FANTASTIC lane, you farm creeps damn well with a quick auto hit and regen your mana, you aren't that harassable with a stun and heal, though mostly you want a ranged harasser who can do a lot of damage if he's not focused because i can use heals to keep in both in lane. You can pick off greedy divers with a stun in tower range, or general dive with stun shatter heal while your teammate picks him off while you're taking the tower damage.
But I've been having serious problems with a good transition.
Pure tanks seems too weak because your lane phase is bad, you'll probably have more mana issues that you need to tech to something like a quick rod. But if you can pull it off, basically ignore your heal after laning phase, and just mass health and whatever armour and resist you pick up from early game, that way you should be a very viable tank because of a shatter/ultimate both keeping you alive and boosting your time heavily, with stun to pick off a runner and shatter if you're routing them.
Pure support seems way too weak because you're not really contributing to the damage and you either have a 12 second heal or you're going to risk getting focused down trying to get melee hits in.
Perhaps I should start with the attack speed, get nashor's tooth for some decent healing support in midgame, and then just get everything else with mass health and don't worry about armour/resist after merc treads? Do I need a chalice or bigger mana pool so I can keep ultimate going, or just time it right?
It feels like to make him worth having instead of someone like annie who can guaranteed do tons of damage you have to live through the whole teamfight but actually take some damage from your weaker teammates as well, and after that the bonus of shatter armour+ultimate damage+your tanking and stun should make up for it, it doesn't seem like its too easy to do though. Shame because he's insanely good at lane phase if you get some attack speed.
Really would like some input he seems like a complicated champ because of the way he benefits from lots of different stats in different ways.
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thread necro is inevitable in this setup
but in any case, im glad as fuck that you did, i had never seen TAPIOCAS BROTHER IN THIS GAME BEFOREEE
edit: oh and in the spirit of contributing to the thread, i.e, lw, svisage taric all the way. gogo
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Yeah I went for spirit visage in my last game it seemed like a logical choice since it gives resist/hp and improves self healing which is exactly what he needs.
I just bought jax, since taric won't be free soon. Probably jungle opening but apparantly its pretty hard to jungle as jax.
I already know how insanely good chogath is at everything from his free week when i just started playing, and i might pick up garen/ww/taric/pantheon later at some point, not sure about WW he's not really my style i don't think.
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I've been going Doran's Ring -> boots 1 -> Aegis -> Boots 2 (usually mercs) -> Spirit Visage -> Soul Shroud if the game still hasn't ended (I almost never finish Shroud). Buy 3 wards every time you b if you can afford it. This leaves you very hard to kill but not entirely ignorable because you're providing something like 40 armor (or 12 and -30 to the other team), 20 MR, and almost a BF sword to your entire team. Plus some healing.
AP on Taric actually seems like it should be decent because his AP ratios are very good, but I've not tried it. I don't think I'd ever bother with any sort of attack damage/aspd though. You're melee so it's hard to even attack as often as your base attack speed lets you a lot of the time. And as far as CDR on Q goes ... I'd rather just build CDR, and with Taric's cooldowns CDR is quite helpful during teamfights on all your skills (including R a lot of the time).
As far as his passive goes it's mostly useful in laning (even if you're just last-hitting it adds up significantly) and after you win a teamfight so you don't have to b as much and don't need golem. It won't restore mana fast enough in teamfights to affect how long you can afford to leave Radiance on unless you're doing something dumb like DPS Taric. Aspd does literally nothing to help his passive during laning unless you're pushing the wave, which you generally do not want to do, or it maybe gets you one more attack off after you stun someone.
Generally you don't want to initiate teamfights. All you have is a single-target stun that doesn't even happen instantly, so you're unlikely to get anyone important out-of-position if you initiate with it. You want someone else to start fights if possible, and then you save your stun for someone like Kat/Panth/Shaco/Akali etc. who really wants to kill someone squishy but dies easily. Turn radiance on as soon as your AD characters start dealing damage, leave it on as long as you think you can while still having enough mana to Q/E (you probably use W before this point and probably won't need it again afterward) once after you turn it off. You won't be able to leave it on the whole fight in almost all cases, that's ok, being able to Q/E is much better in most cases. Q/W/E as they look necessary obviously, and try to autoattack in whatever time you have left over. Taric soaking damage is good for your team because he's hard to kill and--especially if you've run out of mana/blown your stun--doesn't do too much to actually kill the other team, so once the fight starts make sure you only run if the rest of your team is dying and the fight already lost (or if you managed to soak up ALL their damage so you're at terribly low HP and about to die anyway but your team can clean it up because they just wasted all their damage on Taric).
Note that the healing Radiance provides is rather small (unless you have tons of AP), but the damage it provides is not. 45 AD on everyone is huge.
I would not get Chalice on Taric because it doesn't help you keep Radiance on longer and as long as there are creeps somewhere to hit you will regen mana quickly enough with runes/your passive after fights. Though, if you just started playing you won't have tier 3 mp5pl runes so Chalice is better then (but I'd still not get it).
tl;dr version: Build tank/aurawhore (OP's build is good, pretty much what I've been doing but I skip the mana item, but then I'm running dual mp5pl runes because that's what I have), radiance won't be on the whole time in teamfights (also like the OP says it's fucking amazing at taking out turrets/inhibs/nexuses), if you want CDR build CDR. And buy wards.
edit: Also with Radiance on at level 18 and no items Taric has like 200 AD lol.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 13 2010 03:50 crate wrote:
As far as his passive goes it's mostly useful in laning (even if you're just last-hitting it adds up significantly) and after you win a teamfight so you don't have to b as much and don't need golem. It won't restore mana fast enough in teamfights to affect how long you can afford to leave Radiance on unless you're doing something dumb like DPS Taric. Aspd does literally nothing to help his passive during laning unless you're pushing the wave, which you generally do not want to do, or it maybe gets you one more attack off after you stun someone.
The awkward thing about Taric's passive in lane is that you don't *want* to be last hitting usually unless it's a minion that your lane partner can't get to (since you're a babysit support champ, 90% of other champs are more farm dependent than you, and you should cede every last hit you can to your lanemate--the only champs I can think of that I'd be ok taking last hits from is other support champs, and Garen once he's filled up Courage), and auto-ing high-hp minions pushes the lane.
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garen needs farm to become unkillable, known fact. if you're garen and neglecting farming, you're an idiot (tho its true its not as important as on some heroes like ranged carries)
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EPT
