One of the strongest supports in the game (and easily the most fabulous), Taric is a tank/support hybrid with limited offensive capabilities but a powerful and versatile support skillset well-suited to dominating a duo lane and creating strong pushes.
Summoner Skills: Flash + Clairvoyance (/Exhaust/Ignite). Taric's summoners are very versatile, but he badly needs an escape mechanism from at least one of the slots, and nothing really compares to Flash. Clairvoyance is a spell that's very core to gameplay as well, and as a champion who doesn't require a second summoner to function, Taric is usually the best holder of it on a team.
Under rare circumstances, you may be paired on a team with a champion who also does not require a second summoner spell, such as Blitzcrank. If they take Clairvoyance, it may be more beneficial to your team for you to run Exhaust or Ignite.
Quints: Flat AP; Flat Armor; Movespeed - mix as desired Marks: Flat Armor OR Flat MRes Seals: Flat Armor Glyphs: AP / Level OR Flat MRes OR MRes/Level
Masteries are 0/8/21 + 1, with the last point in 3/3 armor or the applicable Summoner skill.
Taric's AP scaling is strong on his Q and E, but his innate survivability is the focus of this build.
Skills:
E level 1. Past level 1, what you rank should depend on how your lane is going - if it's going well, you can take W at level 2 and attempt to set up a kill; if it's not, you should usually take Q at level 2 to heal up.
Past the opening, there are a few skilling orders that work:
W > Q > E: The old standard, Shatter first is still an option because of its very strong passive and ability to contribute to burst damage. Imbue secondary allows slightly stronger heals in lane, even without AP.
W > E > Q: Once considered a one-point wonder, Dazzle has increased in power significantly due to gameplay changes which allow Taric to open up on softer targets in the bottom lane. With this build, one point of Imbue is required, at level 3 or 4.
E > W > Q: Dazzle is the only one of Taric's abilities that doesn't scale with mana cost by level, and it has strong level and AP scaling. For a non-AP build, it's often not as useful as levelling Shatter first, but it offers the highest damage potential in lane of any of these builds, with an impressive 400 max damage at rank 5.
E > Q > W: Not recommended. If you need to level your heal early, you're probably not in a position where Dazzle's damage means anything, and you'd be better off levelling Shatter for the bonus mitigation.
Q First builds: Also not recommended. The benefit of levelling Imbue is relatively small, with Rank 3 Imbue offering .52 more health per mana than rank 1, and that involves taking points out of Shatter. If you need lane sustainability, boosting rank 1 Imbue with early AP is a better option.
On Radiance: Radiance has an unfortunate tendency to be lackluster compared to the powerful ults of other supports. Though it's worth getting the first rank, putting off ranks 2 and 3 of Radiance until your other abilities are maxed can be a good idea depending on your team's composition.
Early game item checklist: - Boots 1 - At least 1 Gold/10 item (Heart of Gold, Philosopher's Stone, Kage's Lucky Pick) and/or 1-2 additional Doran's Rings - At least 1 ward purchased every return to base, with the exception of a return with exactly enough gold to purchase an above item. - Oracle's Elixir
Mid game item suggestions: - Boots 2, usually Mercury's Treads, but if you have a Philosopher's Stone you can get Ninja Tabi or Ionian Boots of Lucidity instead. - Aegis of the Legion - Spirit Visage -or- Catalyst the Protector - Wards
If you have a Philosopher's Stone -> Shurelya's Reverie -or- Eleisa's Miracle, depending on boots.
Late game item suggestions:
- Banshee's Veil - Tanky aura items, such as Abyssal Scepter or Frozen Heart. Soul Shroud is bad, don't buy it. - Spirit Visage if not purchased earlier. - Even more wards.
Playstyle:
Level 1: This is when you are by far your weakest. Either you're lacking your heal (99%) or your stun (1%), and you don't have an armor aura. Play mostly defensively in your lane, though if you have a setup for a level 1 kill then you should initiate it since you're almost certainly the most durable person in lane.
It's worth noting that Taric is one of the best initiators of a level 1 teamfight along with Sion, so make sure your team knows you can score a quick kill in one.
Levels 2-9 (earlygame): With your early heal and Shatter's armor boost, you have some of the best defenses in the game at this point. You have enough defensive ability to initiate tower dives, though you should be mindful of CC and the enemy jungler when doing so. Similarly, you can stand in front of your tower and absorb minion waves to preserve your tower's health.
You should attempt to save Dazzle if you think the enemy jungler will gank soon (4:35~ onward), and use it to retreat to safety. Don't be afraid to hit minions to refresh your heal, as long as they're still being last hit properly.
Proper use of Shatter and Dazzle is crucial to scoring kills in this phase. Use Shatter only when you're sure that the damage dealt will be greater than the extra damage taken by an ally from losing their armor from it.
Levels 10-17 (midgame): Taking towers is Taric's greatest strength over other pure supports, and it's during this stage of the game that it's most in play. Ideally you'll be finished or almost finished with Aegis at this point, and you should be rocking a strong amount of armor. You should be using your considerable endurance to make sure that you're absorbing as much damage as possible, and starting from this point it's entirely possible for you to simply tank a turret during a teamfight.
The best way for you to be a credit to team in this stage of the game is to make sure that if a tower is hitting someone, that someone is you. Also make sure to always be hitting things (and keep Imbue on cooldown),
At this point in the game, it's important to assess which parts of the enemy team are going to be the most dangerous in the next 15-20 minutes and to build to counter them. Your R makes you a very strong pushing force, and your healing potential allows for an earlier Baron if it's possible.
Level 18 (endgame): Unless your team is losing horribly (in which case you might not have gotten to this point), you should have Aegis and between 2,000 and 4,000 gold in other items (and wards). Your role at this point in the game is diminished compared to early and midgame, but your stun remains incredibly strong on targets without a spellshield and you're tanky enough to require real effort to dislodge from a tower.
Rank 3 Radiance will cause even an AP to wreck towers at a good clip, and without ignite rolling on you, you're very difficult to kill. Keep warding and keep building toward team-specific items, because although your support 'things' are less interesting lategame than the AoE power of Janna/ Sona or Soraka, you're a full-fledged tank on top of your support.
General things: - Doran's Ring is a super cost-efficient item. If you find yourself behind in a game or otherwise hurting for gold, you should consider buying multiple Doran's Rings in place of where you would normally splurge on gold/10 items. - Force of Nature is usually not worth the money. When building defensive items, burst effective health is more important on Taric than similar champions because of his natural self healing. - Because Riot is very stubborn, healing yourself in a teamfight, regardless of whether or not it's the only way for you to have survived, does not grant assists. Make sure you hit your enemies (or heal someone else) if you want delicious assist gold. - Mejai's is actually not all that good on Taric unless you know you can maintain double-digit stacks. You're not a ranged support, you are a brave melee support, and Taric can put himself into positions where he can die to save the life of 2+ people fairly easily. - Pink Taric is fabulous. Buy him, play him, love him.
Pretty decent advice overall, but it's worth noting that Taric is a very versatile (and easy to play) champion. One thing to note is that it's better to level W when your lane opponents are mostly physical damage or if your lane partner does mostly physical damage. Otherwise, Q may be better; total judgement call. It's also a good idea to think about when you want to use your W. For example, if there's an enemy Garen you would want to wait until his spin is over so that you make full use of the armor aura, and then Shatter to apply the armor reduction debuff.
I also run CV 100% of the time on him instead of Clarity. The map awareness is amazing and personally, between Meditation, mp5/lvl runes, and his passive, I don't have mana problems. I'm a big fan of rushing Soul Shroud too but it depends on team makeup of course.
What are peoples' thoughts on building Catalyst into Rod of Ages? I don't usually start Catalyst and usually end up getting Aegis, but I've seen it done when another person on the team is already getting Aegis (even though, IMO Taric is probably the best Aegis-holder).
I also go almost 100% of the time with clairvoyance (altough i'm not that good with using it yet, but i think it is a really good support spell) and ghost. never bought spirit visage on him... i think i'm going to test that out, actually sounds very good, i just don't really have that item in my mind, cause taric is almost the only tank i play.
my runepage is currently mpen reds, armor yellow, mres/lvl blue, health quint. reds are going to get exchanged, prolly with armor like you, just need to save up IP. my question is, do you feel comfortable with the amount of health you have at lvl1 / early levels, when u go sapphire / ap quints?
On November 04 2010 14:07 TheYango wrote: What are peoples' thoughts on building Catalyst into Rod of Ages? I don't usually start Catalyst and usually end up getting Aegis, but I've seen it done when another person on the team is already getting Aegis (even though, IMO Taric is probably the best Aegis-holder).
But banshee's is a cheaper usage of the catalyst, and fits him better. If you're dominating so much that you can pull off a RoA rush, you've probably won the game regardless of what you buy. AP is kinda meh on him, because his cooldowns are so friggin slow (except imbue, when coupled with constant melee.)
On November 04 2010 22:29 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: I have always been a believer in rushing Soul Shroud. Starting mana-manip + W is the way to go.
WEQWWR is my normal build, going into Merc Treads then Aegis.
Buffric, anyone?
Personally I'm not really a fan of Soul Shroud. Armor and MR are preferable survivability stats compared to flat HP, because of how they interact with with his heal, and a CDR aura feels lackluster to me because most of the time champs that really need the CDR plan around capping it themselves (blue elixir, golem buff, etc.).
Regardless, getting both Soul Shroud AND Aegis in a game seems ambitious, but that's probably because I play Taric the way Zirun plays Janna (babysit the duo lane, don't take last hits, and let the other guy pretend he's free-farming--and wherever possible let someone more item-dependent clear pushed lanes).
Personally im big fan mejai at supports. If you know what you are doing, and you dont overextend in balanced teams, mejai might give you really cheap ap. With his awesome ap ratio its really worth getting some ap. After its cool to get some -cdr items (soul shroud seems fine, spirit visage is wonderfull on him). Also blue pot give everything you need.
You might also consider playing aura taric: aegis of legion as mandatory, as next items you could get starks fervor, and soul shroud: Aegis of legion aura + shatter= 22-42 bonus armor (depending on shatter level) + 15 magic resist Aegis of legion aura + radiance= 23-53 bonus attack damage (depending on radiance level) Stark's fervor aura + enemy unit under effect of active shatter= 30-50 armor penalty + some other aura stats.
On November 05 2010 01:03 Lunek wrote: You might also consider playing aura taric: aegis of legion as mandatory, as next items you could get starks fervor, and soul shroud: Aegis of legion aura + shatter= 22-42 bonus armor (depending on shatter level) + 15 magic resist Aegis of legion aura + radiance= 23-53 bonus attack damage (depending on radiance level) Stark's fervor aura + enemy unit under effect of active shatter= 30-50 armor penalty + some other aura stats.
How are you getting 7k+ gold a game without stealing someone's farm?
On November 05 2010 01:03 Lunek wrote: You might also consider playing aura taric: aegis of legion as mandatory, as next items you could get starks fervor, and soul shroud: Aegis of legion aura + shatter= 22-42 bonus armor (depending on shatter level) + 15 magic resist Aegis of legion aura + radiance= 23-53 bonus attack damage (depending on radiance level) Stark's fervor aura + enemy unit under effect of active shatter= 30-50 armor penalty + some other aura stats.
How are you getting 7k+ gold a game without stealing someone's farm?
Depends how long game it is. Honestly you got point. Lets cut it to merc threads, + aegis of legion, + wards. 3200 gold. AoL aura increase minion stats, which is really major boost to them + radiance aura, like guide author noticed, makes him really scary pusher.
I've found that a 2x Dorans ring -> Merc treads -> Chalice -> Whatever your team needs is the best build for Taric atm. I also think that Teleport deserves a special mention on Taric, because he's one of those heroes that can teleport to a creep-pushed lane while the other team is pushing, take out the tower, and get away. I usually take Cleanse/Ghost + Teleport on Taric and it works out very well for me.
Aegis, to me, seems overrated. You should focus more on AP and CDR, and I find Nashor's Tooth is an excellent item to take if your team already has someone else to take the hits. Faster attack and CDR means lightning fast heal CD and the extra AP makes up for the last nerf or 2 to his total heal. Unfortunately, the aforementioned nerfs mean you CAN'T skip AP anymore because your heal is so piss weak that it won't even counter a decent nuke or crit auto attack once mid-late game rolls around. I played him a ton a long time ago (Summer mostly) and I've started picking him up again, and I still maintain that his roles hierarchy is Healer -> Pusher -> Offtank.
More and more coherent arguments to come, I'm somewhat strapped for time atm.
Not very important Thing, but what is your preferred Skin for Taric?
when i play with some guys on vent and i ask what skin i should take they start screaming "NOT PINK PPLSSSSSS OMGZZZZZGTFO" while i think pink skin is best and hilarious :D
Has anyone had luck with AD/AS Taric? In a vacuum, being able to debuff your opponent and heal yourself infinitely seems like a good thing. All of his spells interact with building DPS in a positive way.
Skins on Taric are really important, and as slightly mentioned in the op, you should always pick pink Taric. You'll win the game be either really winning or losing it because of the troll value of pink Taric cannot be matched.
Oh hey, look at that - posts! If you want anything added to the OP aside from basic statements, make sure you tell me specifically - I don't want to misrepresent people.
The first order of buisness is probably the most important one in the entire thread. Pink Taric is the preferred skin of choice, and if you play Taric and ever buy a single skin for this game, it should be Pink Taric.
On Clairvoyance - I want to experiment with it more when Clarity isn't very practical (3+ people with no mana issues). I feel that Clarity is incredibly underrated though, and it keeps you in lanes / fights far longer than otherwise possible even excluding the ability to give a low-mana champ a good part of their mana pool back on demand.
Because of how CC interacts with Taric's ult (Silence, etc means you can't turn it off), you can find yourself out of mana in a hurry, and being able to stay in the fight even after something like that has won me more than a few games.
On Aegis - Aegis gives 3 of the 4 stats you want on an item (only Randuin's and Spirit Visage match this total, though items like Banshee's Veil are very similar). Given that it's so in-line with what Taric wants (and it's easily accessible on a Support / Tank budget), I would recommend to any other potential Aegis holders that you get it, with the possible exception of a competent Shen. I can't see myself ever intentionally skipping Aegis unless the game was already won and I had a chance to build an AP item to press our advantage.
On Soul Shroud - HP is the worst Effective Health stat for Taric, and there's more efficient sources of CDR for yourself. I feel Soul Shroud is incredibly overrated as well, because as TheYango said, it's unlikely that the people who need 40% CDR are going to stop at 25% CDR + no blue buff in hopes that they'll have your aura every time they need to use their abilities. If you have far too much money, it's something to look into, but it's really a poor choice compared to CDR / tank items for yourself.
On RoA / AP builds - None of Taric's abilities need a large amount of AP to be useful. Shatter gives 30 Armor / Armor Reduction at 0 AP, Dazzle is a 1 - 2 second stun at 0 AP, and Radiance is 90 / 45 AD at 0 AP that scales poorly with AP. Given that your cooldowns are fairly long on W and E, the benefit to Q from AP is less than simply gearing for CDR and healing 1-2 seconds quicker with better support abilities.
Mejai's is a particularly bad item on Taric compared to other supports. Mejai's is an excellent item on Sona, Janna and Soraka because of something they all have in common - they're ranged casters who are one of the people most likely to escape a teamfight going wrong, because they have no place in the thick of things.
Taric not only HAS to be in melee to be an effective teamfight healer, but he's a a character that builds tanky who can hold the enemy team long enough to allow other people to escape. If you have an extra 1300 gold to build Mejai's in the timeframe where you'd buy Aegis / Visage, you're probably going to win anyways, so I feel that Mejai's is very much a "win more" item.
---
On November 04 2010 17:58 byFd wrote: my question is, do you feel comfortable with the amount of health you have at lvl1 / early levels, when u go sapphire / ap quints?
It can be a little dicey sometimes at level 1, but given that autoattacks are a significant part of just about every level 1 kill combo, having 50 armor in lane (and the second red pot) should you alive. Even with higher HP, it's often not wise to fight before 2 unless you know your lane is stronger, just because not having Imbue makes fighting much harder. Any early deaths in my lanes generally could not have been prevented without better play from my lanemates. (Chasing low HP targets without popping a potion / failure to retreat when neccesary).
On November 04 2010 22:29 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: I have always been a believer in rushing Soul Shroud. Starting mana-manip + W is the way to go.
WEQWWR is my normal build, going into Merc Treads then Aegis.
Buffric, anyone?
I'm curious how your lane manages to hold alright until 3? Starting without health potions OR stun at level 1 is a recipe to get owned unless you're laning with someone who takes CC at level 1 and you have double escape summoners. You might be able to push back at 3, but realistically your mana regen isn't being put to very good use if you can't heal up the damage you're taking for 2 levels.
I used to like Chalice a lot on Taric, but honestly, in a reasonable game where you're getting minimal CS early on and maybe an assist or two here and there, even small things like extra Doran's Rings can really delay your Aegis a lot. And since finishing Aegis really helps you let your team take control of the game, most of the time just getting to finish Aegis is just better.
On Clairvoyance vs. Clarity--I will 100% of the time take Clairvoyance if no one else on the team has it. The vision is so helpful, particularly when your other sidelane has no map awareness, and doesn't ward, so you can scout an incoming gank. Then again, that's probably because I play Terran in SC1/SC2, and ComSat Station is imba.
I'm curious how your lane manages to hold alright until 3? Starting without health potions OR stun at level 1 is a recipe to get owned unless you're laning with someone who takes CC at level 1 and you have double escape summoners. You might be able to push back at 3, but realistically your mana regen isn't being put to very good use if you can't heal up the damage you're taking for 2 levels.
That was a typo on my part. It's supposed to read WQEWWR, R > W > Q > E.
I have MPen Reds, MP5 Blues and Yellow, HP Quints.
AP Quints - Necessary, you need SOME AP to be viable, at minimum.
AP/lvl or AS Reds - He benefits marginally from AS reds and marginally from AP, your choice, it's such a small change it hardly makes a difference.
Flat CDR Blues - Duh.
Yellows -Flat mana. Why? Because it gives you nearly enough for an extra heal at lvl 1 and nothing scales well with yellow anyway (armor is redundant as hell: you already have the highest in the game with Shatter).
Lvl 1 depends on your lanemate: Physical dps (Especially Garen/Xin) - Dazzle Squishy caster - Shatter Tanky hero or anyone else without decent burst: Heal
Always go 1/1/1 and have all 3 skills at lvl 3. From there, use your lane tempo to determine your skill order: If you're getting harassed endlessly by LaBlanc, Galio, Sona, etc: get more heal. If you're dominating the lane, get W and do "shatterbombs": when they overextend to get a last hit, stun them, shatter, and be behind your creeps before they retaliate.
Aegis is MASSIVELY overrated, along with all other aurastacking builds. Only use it when you're the "main tanker" of your team or the only one that doesn't suffer from a support build.
Taric is SHIT at farming, you need items that are easily buyable in small chunks, so RoA is out despite how much I loved it way back when. Starting with Doran's Ring, pick up a second one and boots on your first b, finish mercs and grab a chalice on your second. Then you play your team: Aegis in the situation above. If you're an offtank, consider Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart or Catalyst -> Banshees if they have more AD or AP respectively. If you have enough beef on your team, go Codex -> Nashors, then everything else is just "as needed" because the game shouldn't go too long past that.
The most important thing in the game is knowing your limits. How much you can get away with without dying as far as laning/ganks/teamfights go. Know when to hold em, fold em, and run away. Taric can hold em forever early game. Don't be afraid to absorb auto attacks from ranged DPS if you have a buddy to make them pay for it (or you're far back enough the creep start taking them down, with shatter and heal, you can last longer than they can against constant creep fire). Once you hit late game, be very careful of burst casters and hybrids like Akali, they will destroy you almost as much as anyone else unless you're building tank.
That's all I can think of for now.
Oh, and Emerald Taric is my favorite. I have the pink but always play green.
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote: Flat CDR Blues - Duh.
Strongly disagree here. Given that you don't want to spam Shatter, that you generally aren't going to be fast activating-deactivating your ult, and that Attack Speed does more for your heal CD than minor CDR, flat CDR is sort of a weak choice for blues. MR, mp5, and AP/lvl IMO are all stronger choices for Taric.
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote: Yellows -Flat mana. Why? Because it gives you nearly enough for an extra heal at lvl 1 and nothing scales well with yellow anyway (armor is redundant as hell: you already have the highest in the game with Shatter).
You take armor because as a babysitter and assist whore, you can't plan around being able to itemize it reasonably, beyond Aegis. Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage are cost-effective sources of MR, but most of the strong armor items require too much farm (GA, Randuin, Sunfire, etc.)
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote: Aegis is MASSIVELY overrated, along with all other aurastacking builds. Only use it when you're the "main tanker" of your team or the only one that doesn't suffer from a support build.
How is Aegis massively overrated? It's one of the most cost-effective sources of balanced survivability in the game, and it's effect on minions folds into your ability to push lanes. That and the fact that it's whole cost is about the same as some of your "small chunk" items.
On the subject of small-chunk items, Randuin's Omen is actually a good one. The highest single cost required for it is the Chain Mail (700g), and pretty much any part of it + wards can be done on 1k. Frozen Heart is an alright incremental item as well, breaking down to 700 + 400 + 575 + 300 + 300 + 800.
These two are also very good as small chunks, though they're really situational:
Deathfire Grasp - (435 + 330) + (435 + 390 + 420) + 600 Will of the Ancients - (435 + 435 + 330) + 435 + 765
Stark's is notably bad with the 1050 cost and then the 700 combine, as well as Abyssal (860 + 1050). At least Abyssal gives you 2 good items.
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote: Flat CDR Blues - Duh.
Strongly disagree here. Given that you don't want to spam Shatter, that you generally aren't going to be fast activating-deactivating your ult, and that Attack Speed does more for your heal CD than minor CDR, flat CDR is sort of a weak choice for blues. MR, mp5, and AP/lvl IMO are all stronger choices for Taric.
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote: Yellows -Flat mana. Why? Because it gives you nearly enough for an extra heal at lvl 1 and nothing scales well with yellow anyway (armor is redundant as hell: you already have the highest in the game with Shatter).
You take armor because as a babysitter and assist whore, you can't plan around being able to itemize it reasonably, beyond Aegis. Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage are cost-effective sources of MR, but most of the strong armor items require too much farm (GA, Randuin, Sunfire, etc.)
On November 05 2010 09:49 deth2munkies wrote: Aegis is MASSIVELY overrated, along with all other aurastacking builds. Only use it when you're the "main tanker" of your team or the only one that doesn't suffer from a support build.
How is Aegis massively overrated? It's one of the most cost-effective sources of balanced survivability in the game, and it's effect on minions folds into your ability to push lanes. That and the fact that it's whole cost is about the same as some of your "small chunk" items.
CDR Blues are helpful for the beginning of the game as they give you ~1-1.5 seconds off your heal and stun straight up. No blue runes scale really well to the lategame anyway.
Shatter is all the armor you ever need on Taric. With Mercs/Chalice and lvl 5 Shatter, Taric is packing over 120 armor/100 MRes by the midgame, easy. That's more than enough if you aren't doing hardcore tanking.
The better "balanced survivability" option is Guardian Angel, but even then, Taric's job is first as a healer, second as a disabler, and 3rd as an offtank. Building straight tank items like Aegis isn't necessary unless your team is relying on you to take hits. If you do build Aegis after the mandatory items, you probably won't get enough gold by the end of the game to get a Nashors or anything else that helps you heal, thus overcommitting to a tanky build and being relatively useless due to your piss-weak, long CD heals and stuns.
Nashor's Tooth greatly increases your ability to heal, which is your most important attribute as it's what Taric really brings to the table. It also lets you keep your ult up longer with MP/5 and AS (which directly relates to mana) and CDR to top it all off. Your ult is infinitely better than Aegis at pushing lanes, so maximizing the time you can keep it up is more important than a marginal midgame-only increase.
I find Flat CDR blues to be very underwhelming. Visage + X + Utility is plenty of CDR, and if you wind up with Blue just Visage gives you the cap. Armor and MR both scale very well into the lategame, and I think ignoring it in favor of mana you don't particularly need is a mistake. I say that it's not particularly needed simply because Taric's mana needs are very bursty, and there's no way that 16 mp5 or 63 mana outdo 13 armor in the lategame. Mp5 comes much closer, but I have a hard time believing it's better than the damage reduction you get when Taric is strongest.
Even at low (~50) AP, Imbue still heals for 250. Until you get to the late lategame, that's at least 10% of a champion's health, and once you get to that point you're either A) able to afford an AP item or B) losing really badly. You need a -lot- of AP to make 3/4 small heals a fight better than 1/2 larger ones.
That said, though, if you can't take hits in a meaningful way for your team, Taric is honestly not the right pick anymore. Taric really loses a lot of his usefulness without healing himself as well (and without his R healing).
ps: Yango, if you don't find a more qualified tutor, i'll be glad to teach you some Taric-y stuff one day.
I think Stark's rush is probably viable if you have any of
A) A specialized team composition (very heavy physical with decent resilience) B) A fed carry whom you can amplify further with it. C) A champion who can build Aegis and wants to
Unless any of those qualifications are met, I don't think it's a very good rush item because of how long it takes to provide a real benefit to you. Good examples of heroes you'd want to rush a Stark's for include Xin, Olaf, Mundo, Pantheon, Yi, Shaco, Tristana, Corki, Miss Fortune, Ashe, Kog'maw and Twitch. I don't include Tryndamere in this list because although Stark's would improve his DPS, he's not a champ you want other heroes to rush items to support. Probably good for Jax too, but he does a lot of magic damage.
If your team looked something like this: Taric Olaf Corki Galio Morgana
You might want to get Stark's as your first big item because not only is your team leaned slightly physical damage-wise, but Galio can carry Aegis as well. Even with a less Aegis-conducive hero in place of Galio, it might still be worth getting early if Olaf or Corki get some quick kills.
I've been trying out both the Doran's Ring opening and running without Clairvoyance. I think doing either one or the other is stronger than what i've been doing, but doing both is one hell of a mana fuck. I'm tempted to try running mp5pl (or maybe even flat mana) in blue to see what happens.
1) The cost on the pieces (particularly the Recurve Bow) isn't cheap, and they aren't too great on their own for Taric (and don't build to anything else useful), so its hard to justify if you can't be sure you're going to finish it (e.g. if you get another item like Aegis first).
2) You maximize the benefit of Stark's with a fed carry/physical damage champ, but you can't know going into the game how fed your carry is going to be.
It's something I'd consider picking up post-Aegis if I happen to pick up a few unexpected kills, but otherwise, I'd probably only rush it if I knew beforehand that the team composition for it is right.
On November 07 2010 09:57 Niton wrote: Actual secret to victory: Guinsoo's Rageblade
Actual new topic of discussion:
Taric - Viable solo lane?
Lol, I've fought against one Taric Solo lane ever, he played decently well, but got completely destroyed. I have a hard time imagining a worse sololane.
On November 07 2010 09:57 Niton wrote: Actual secret to victory: Guinsoo's Rageblade
Actual new topic of discussion:
Taric - Viable solo lane?
depends on the matchup. he's not someone you want high level or high farm, so he needs to be shutting people down for it to be a good idea and I don't think there are many good solos he actually counters. However, I once had to lane as Pantheon vs. a Taric with Armor Runes on a solo lane. It was not pretty, he absolutely butt-fucked me with his ~70 Armor at level 1 and I just could not push him off the damn creep so he had infinite mana and would just stun -> shatter me and continually heal. It was really really gay. But someone with sustained range Harass or a healing debuff should be able to destroy Taric.
Hey guys, sorry for the thread necro. Just started playing LoL and bought annie as my first hero, I might buy a jungler or a physical dps like garen (not a pussy like yi, maybe pantheon or some other physical melee carry), having lots of success wirg her, but trying out taric right now, while he's free. Here's my issue: -Do you build Taric as support? i.e -Ability power for mass heals, shatter for the armour and aoe, and stun for the utility in team fights, with your ultimate for the +attack utility, which is really good for a melee comp -Do you build him as a tank? -Use the ultimate mostly for the self healing, mass armour, resist since they scale with healing and enough health to survive burst, only use heal for early game -Do you build him as a hybrid? Here's where I'm having trouble; Taric's passive means that if you're going for tank or support its basically useless either way, as your poor damage output and slow attack speed means you do almost no damage that 7.5% will make enough difference, and you're building him for teamfights in the mid/late game so you don't need mana regen slowly anyway. His heal also is reduced by 2 seconds every time you hit, so this is what I was testing: -Go for an early dagger into a quick stinger (90 more gold over a recurve bow, allows a quick dagger for the first laning phase, and 10% less cooldown on heal/stun/shatter coming back up//your ultimate which you want to toggle on/off as it gets high mana the less cooldown the more you can use it without burning mana) -Use the stinger to eventually get Nagor's Tooth which is 50% attack speed//10 mp5//55 ability power//25% less cooldowns and it not that expensive. -Obviously merc treads. -I've been getting chalice for the mana regen as its quite cheap and resist is good with taric because of scaling with healing, and it scales well with the tooth, but I'm not sure on if its worth it, why not get more mana for more burst and in quite situations farm mana with your 1 hit/s auto attack. -Do I get +attack damage? Seems overboard since it only scales with the passive and midgame onwards you can't do too many damage in teamfights with just autoattack. -How to I transition? More armour/resist to scale with my healing, perhaps frozen heart for even more cd reduction so I can heal every 2-3 auto attacks? More health for tankiness and its probably cheaper than getting both armour and resist. Do I go for more ability power to have better healing, shatter, and stun damage, as well as slightly better survivability with the ultimate.
I've been finding that I've been getting focused down hard, which gives him no chance to abuse his shatter passive, ultimate passive, team healing and self healing, and active shatter and stun. I know with annie it took me a while before I figured out how to get damage in but keep my distance and run when i need to from a teamfight after getting burst in. Perhaps I need another tank to go in and try to protect weakers with stun//heal and use that oppurtunity to get auto hits in to heal more and abuse the ultimate just for the damage?
I guess the reason I've been doing this attack speed opening is that you get a FANTASTIC lane, you farm creeps damn well with a quick auto hit and regen your mana, you aren't that harassable with a stun and heal, though mostly you want a ranged harasser who can do a lot of damage if he's not focused because i can use heals to keep in both in lane. You can pick off greedy divers with a stun in tower range, or general dive with stun shatter heal while your teammate picks him off while you're taking the tower damage. But I've been having serious problems with a good transition. Pure tanks seems too weak because your lane phase is bad, you'll probably have more mana issues that you need to tech to something like a quick rod. But if you can pull it off, basically ignore your heal after laning phase, and just mass health and whatever armour and resist you pick up from early game, that way you should be a very viable tank because of a shatter/ultimate both keeping you alive and boosting your time heavily, with stun to pick off a runner and shatter if you're routing them. Pure support seems way too weak because you're not really contributing to the damage and you either have a 12 second heal or you're going to risk getting focused down trying to get melee hits in.
Perhaps I should start with the attack speed, get nashor's tooth for some decent healing support in midgame, and then just get everything else with mass health and don't worry about armour/resist after merc treads? Do I need a chalice or bigger mana pool so I can keep ultimate going, or just time it right?
It feels like to make him worth having instead of someone like annie who can guaranteed do tons of damage you have to live through the whole teamfight but actually take some damage from your weaker teammates as well, and after that the bonus of shatter armour+ultimate damage+your tanking and stun should make up for it, it doesn't seem like its too easy to do though. Shame because he's insanely good at lane phase if you get some attack speed.
Really would like some input he seems like a complicated champ because of the way he benefits from lots of different stats in different ways.
Yeah I went for spirit visage in my last game it seemed like a logical choice since it gives resist/hp and improves self healing which is exactly what he needs. I just bought jax, since taric won't be free soon. Probably jungle opening but apparantly its pretty hard to jungle as jax. I already know how insanely good chogath is at everything from his free week when i just started playing, and i might pick up garen/ww/taric/pantheon later at some point, not sure about WW he's not really my style i don't think.
I've been going Doran's Ring -> boots 1 -> Aegis -> Boots 2 (usually mercs) -> Spirit Visage -> Soul Shroud if the game still hasn't ended (I almost never finish Shroud). Buy 3 wards every time you b if you can afford it. This leaves you very hard to kill but not entirely ignorable because you're providing something like 40 armor (or 12 and -30 to the other team), 20 MR, and almost a BF sword to your entire team. Plus some healing.
AP on Taric actually seems like it should be decent because his AP ratios are very good, but I've not tried it. I don't think I'd ever bother with any sort of attack damage/aspd though. You're melee so it's hard to even attack as often as your base attack speed lets you a lot of the time. And as far as CDR on Q goes ... I'd rather just build CDR, and with Taric's cooldowns CDR is quite helpful during teamfights on all your skills (including R a lot of the time).
As far as his passive goes it's mostly useful in laning (even if you're just last-hitting it adds up significantly) and after you win a teamfight so you don't have to b as much and don't need golem. It won't restore mana fast enough in teamfights to affect how long you can afford to leave Radiance on unless you're doing something dumb like DPS Taric. Aspd does literally nothing to help his passive during laning unless you're pushing the wave, which you generally do not want to do, or it maybe gets you one more attack off after you stun someone.
Generally you don't want to initiate teamfights. All you have is a single-target stun that doesn't even happen instantly, so you're unlikely to get anyone important out-of-position if you initiate with it. You want someone else to start fights if possible, and then you save your stun for someone like Kat/Panth/Shaco/Akali etc. who really wants to kill someone squishy but dies easily. Turn radiance on as soon as your AD characters start dealing damage, leave it on as long as you think you can while still having enough mana to Q/E (you probably use W before this point and probably won't need it again afterward) once after you turn it off. You won't be able to leave it on the whole fight in almost all cases, that's ok, being able to Q/E is much better in most cases. Q/W/E as they look necessary obviously, and try to autoattack in whatever time you have left over. Taric soaking damage is good for your team because he's hard to kill and--especially if you've run out of mana/blown your stun--doesn't do too much to actually kill the other team, so once the fight starts make sure you only run if the rest of your team is dying and the fight already lost (or if you managed to soak up ALL their damage so you're at terribly low HP and about to die anyway but your team can clean it up because they just wasted all their damage on Taric).
Note that the healing Radiance provides is rather small (unless you have tons of AP), but the damage it provides is not. 45 AD on everyone is huge.
I would not get Chalice on Taric because it doesn't help you keep Radiance on longer and as long as there are creeps somewhere to hit you will regen mana quickly enough with runes/your passive after fights. Though, if you just started playing you won't have tier 3 mp5pl runes so Chalice is better then (but I'd still not get it).
tl;dr version: Build tank/aurawhore (OP's build is good, pretty much what I've been doing but I skip the mana item, but then I'm running dual mp5pl runes because that's what I have), radiance won't be on the whole time in teamfights (also like the OP says it's fucking amazing at taking out turrets/inhibs/nexuses), if you want CDR build CDR. And buy wards.
edit: Also with Radiance on at level 18 and no items Taric has like 200 AD lol.
On December 13 2010 03:50 crate wrote: As far as his passive goes it's mostly useful in laning (even if you're just last-hitting it adds up significantly) and after you win a teamfight so you don't have to b as much and don't need golem. It won't restore mana fast enough in teamfights to affect how long you can afford to leave Radiance on unless you're doing something dumb like DPS Taric. Aspd does literally nothing to help his passive during laning unless you're pushing the wave, which you generally do not want to do, or it maybe gets you one more attack off after you stun someone.
The awkward thing about Taric's passive in lane is that you don't *want* to be last hitting usually unless it's a minion that your lane partner can't get to (since you're a babysit support champ, 90% of other champs are more farm dependent than you, and you should cede every last hit you can to your lanemate--the only champs I can think of that I'd be ok taking last hits from is other support champs, and Garen once he's filled up Courage), and auto-ing high-hp minions pushes the lane.
garen needs farm to become unkillable, known fact. if you're garen and neglecting farming, you're an idiot (tho its true its not as important as on some heroes like ranged carries)
baby sit support champ sounds really boring I probably won't bother with taric at all then just being a passive aura is kinda dumb. Im trying jax but its like he needs to attack constantly to do anything but has no slow and a stun only if you're getting physically attacked no wonder nobody plays him lol. leap attack should at least have some kind of passive, all you need to do in a teamfight is not physically attack him so he has no dodge and then caster burst or something he seems extremely underpowered compared to annie/chogath which are the other 2 ive played. He basically has to jungle because he lacks lane skills, or maybe 2v2 with someone like taric aurawhoring but he cant gank at all =[
On December 13 2010 03:50 crate wrote: As far as his passive goes it's mostly useful in laning (even if you're just last-hitting it adds up significantly) and after you win a teamfight so you don't have to b as much and don't need golem. It won't restore mana fast enough in teamfights to affect how long you can afford to leave Radiance on unless you're doing something dumb like DPS Taric. Aspd does literally nothing to help his passive during laning unless you're pushing the wave, which you generally do not want to do, or it maybe gets you one more attack off after you stun someone.
The awkward thing about Taric's passive in lane is that you don't *want* to be last hitting usually unless it's a minion that your lane partner can't get to (since you're a babysit support champ, 90% of other champs are more farm dependent than you, and you should cede every last hit you can to your lanemate--the only champs I can think of that I'd be ok taking last hits from is other support champs, and Garen once he's filled up Courage), and auto-ing high-hp minions pushes the lane.
If you have a decent lane-mate, however, there is an alternative! Simply direct the hits you would be using on minions on to your opponents, and kill them imoimo. Taric is probably the most offensively-minded of all of the supports, because his skillset and best builds all lend toward him being an incredibly capable diver / tower tank.
Can anyone give some tips on how to play a good taric support? Do you go back pre-6 to buy wards? What do you do in fights when all your spells are on CD? When do you turn on ult? Any special strategies for warding?
Spells on cooldown: 1) you are under attack: get the fuck out 2) fight going in your favor, stun up soon: get in position to stun a high priority target 3) everything else: stick to your ranged carries and wait for your cooldowns while blocking skillshots etc.
Ult: 1) Several people attacking a tower/dragon/baron 2) When you need it to survive 3) During fights when it looks like your team can get a few seconds of fairly uninterrupted autoattacking
Wards: Check the last couple of pages of the Janna thread, there should be something about it.
I'm fucked now. I don't know what runes to go for, seeing as i, at the moment, are using armor on both seals and marks, to prevent their AD carry from fucking me up early game etc. The problem before with mana, could be fixed with 2 philo stones. Wtf am i supposed to do now? I still want mah armor, but i need mana reg.
On June 23 2011 20:58 Sponkz wrote: I'm fucked now. I don't know what runes to go for, seeing as i, at the moment, are using armor on both seals and marks, to prevent their AD carry from fucking me up early game etc. The problem before with mana, could be fixed with 2 philo stones. Wtf am i supposed to do now? I still want mah armor, but i need mana reg.
Honestly 1 Philo and a mana item (Glacial Shroud, Cata, Sheen) should be plenty.
Oh yeah what Slayer says: DRing is good. AP is strong on Taric.
Or just stack dorans rings you don't really need health regen on taric although 1 philo is nice so you can soak up harass and not have to waste heals on yourself if your carry is ok. 1 Philo and 2 dorans rings is a lot more efficient than philo+hog because you get a bunch of AP which is really useful early game and you get the regen equivalent of 1.2 philos since they nerfed it. Just trade ap quints for gold/10 quints to make up some of the lost gold/10 you gain ap on the dorans ring.
Not the biggest fan of half items like spines mentioned mostly because they cost a lot and you don't really need them in lane. (Max mana mostly useful for keeping your ult on for a long period of time, don't randomly waste stuns and your mana will be fine) If you somehow end up with 1500 gold or so almost always save the extra 400 for an aegis than getting a selfish item like a sheen which makes a much smaller difference to the teamfight.
Although if you intend to go solo lane super carry tank taric banshee veil+frozen heart+sheen into more ap and lichbane or triforce es #1 best taric.
Ignore my earlier posts in this thread they were me when I just started playing trying to come up with some troll taric ap/attack speed hybrid and get mana from damage dealt from passive and spam heals with auto attack -2 seconding your heal cd and damage coming from R+auto attack with high attack speed. Works if you have some magical non moving target and no focus on a non tank melee guy.
taric, just like any other support role, seriously shouldn't concern itself with an item build. you shouldn't be last hitting anything and your only roles in lane are to zone the enemy and keep your carry healed.
get a philo, hog, t2 boots, 2x doran rings, 5x wards and you have yourself an end-game taric. if for some reason you accidently ksed someone and scored some gold, you should get an aegis... that's about it.
you don't need mana regen. you need mana management and positioning. and you don't get these from items/runes.
either start with boots + ward + pot (if you're laning with a more self-sufficient ad carry like trist or cait) or a doran's ring (if you feel like you're going to have to be in lane). if your lane is fine and dandy then roam and make your presence known. if your lane has something like an alistar ashe or some shit then you should just stay.
e q w w/q w/q r cv/flash 0/9/21 movespeed/hp quints, armor yellows, mr blues, hp/lvl reds. that's how i stat it.
follow around your ganker early game and switch to your carry late-game when team fights start.
You somehow don't get me. It's the early game which is an issue. And starting with a doran's ring, just isn't good (at least for me). How do i make up for early game mana issues? And don't give me some shit about mana management in laning phase, because you can't account for passive/aggressive playstyle on low ELO (yup stuck in ELO hell lol).
NVM: Thought of a solution, flat mreg glyphs what up.
On June 23 2011 22:36 Sponkz wrote: You somehow don't get me. It's the early game which is an issue. And starting with a doran's ring, just isn't good (at least for me). How do i make up for early game mana issues? And don't give me some shit about mana management in laning phase, because you can't account for passive/aggressive playstyle on low ELO (yup stuck in ELO hell lol).
NVM: Thought of a solution, flat mreg glyphs what up.
No. You shouldn't need to use mana regen on any of your runes. They're not slot-effective and yes, mana management is the answer. I use don't even start DRing a lot of the time and I don't run into mana issues.
If you're babysitting a carry, don't waste your Shatters unless they're going to turn into kills. Sustaining your carry is your highest priority. Keeping the Shatter passive up is actually very good for mitigating harass vs. them or yourself. Stuns can be used more liberally but make sure they're accomplishing something.
In a duo where you're hoping to put out pressure (i.e. Garen, Alistar, Blitz, etc.), you're naturally looking to put out damage, but coordinate it with your lanemate. Your stuns should lead into something from your lanemate, and if they can't, don't waste Shatter. You should't run out of mana before being able to force a kill/bluepill/summoners in a lane like Taric+Garen.
On June 23 2011 22:36 Sponkz wrote: You somehow don't get me. It's the early game which is an issue. And starting with a doran's ring, just isn't good (at least for me). How do i make up for early game mana issues? And don't give me some shit about mana management in laning phase, because you can't account for passive/aggressive playstyle on low ELO (yup stuck in ELO hell lol).
NVM: Thought of a solution, flat mreg glyphs what up.
No. You shouldn't need to use mana regen on any of your runes. They're not slot-effective and yes, mana management is the answer. I use don't even start DRing a lot of the time and I don't run into mana issues.
If you're babysitting a carry, don't waste your Shatters unless they're going to turn into kills. Sustaining your carry is your highest priority. Keeping the Shatter passive up is actually very good for mitigating harass vs. them or yourself. Stuns can be used more liberally but make sure they're accomplishing something.
In a duo where you're hoping to put out pressure (i.e. Garen, Alistar, Blitz, etc.), you're naturally looking to put out damage, but coordinate it with your lanemate. Your stuns should lead into something from your lanemate, and if they can't, don't waste Shatter. You should't run out of mana before being able to force a kill/bluepill/summoners in a lane like Taric+Garen.
How do you sustain alot of harass? By healing i guess. What happens when you heal? You lose mana.
My point is, that if you're against an agressive lane, which tends to poke you/your carry alot, you will end up healing alot. So it's like, either you bluepill or you wait for your mana to be regged. The last thing isn't an option if you don't have enough mana reg. Please enlighten me, cause from my POV, mana reg runes are needed.
You sustain against harass by being a rock. You should running Armor/Resist runes, 0/9/21 and soaking the majority of damage. Level W first unless you're against a super AP lane.
Your job isn't just to sit in the back and throw heals on your carry, it's to be the one taking all of the poke/harass. This doesn't mean running around taking unnecessary damage, but it does mean taking damage. Because you built tanky all that harass you soak is half as effective, meaning you need half the healing to deal with it. Less healing is less mana spent.
If you're running out of mana super fast you're either taking unnecessary damage or spending your mana unwisely.
On June 23 2011 22:36 Sponkz wrote: You somehow don't get me. It's the early game which is an issue. And starting with a doran's ring, just isn't good (at least for me). How do i make up for early game mana issues? And don't give me some shit about mana management in laning phase, because you can't account for passive/aggressive playstyle on low ELO (yup stuck in ELO hell lol).
NVM: Thought of a solution, flat mreg glyphs what up.
You seem to be saying: "I can't go 2 philos any more, and I want more mana regen" Which implies you need the 2 philos to regen mana, when 1 philo and 2 dorans rings has more mana regen and is more useful. What you are really saying is: "I can't open double 3 mp5 mana thingies anymore WTB mana regen"
You've got 3 options on taric: 1: Dorans ring. Gives 1 less mp5 than your previous opening but you make it up in ability power and have more hp when is great. Efficient but no ward and no boots so you need a fairly early back. 2: Boots. (with ward+hp pot, or pink ward if they will ward your brush to stop you camping it)You make up the lack of mana regen with the fact that your early game before they get boots is so strong, because simply stun+you get at least 2 free auto hits since you move faster you might get even more, and it lets you avoid harass after you back out. Obviously your carry should be helping dps and you should always stun their carry so they can't retaliate. 3: 3 mp5 thingy+lots of wards and pots and stuff. You more than make up for the 3 mp5 by having hp and mana pots.
If you are laning with a melee consider just opening health regen so you don't need to waste mana on heals. Double melee with taric usually means that you can get harassed easily but you are much stronger when you commit to a fight. Just make sure both of you are in position before you stun and you can probably force a summoner spell.
Either way, your playstyle is to sit in the brush, if they facecheck you should be much stronger since taric is a boss with naturally high armour, high health, and high base damage. If try to harass your carry too agressively just stun their carry and pwn him with your big mace.
Biggest mistake tarics make is using their stun if its not a big attack. It's ok as a last resort to keep your carry alive but it costs 100 mana. Shatter isn't that bad because its only 50 and does a lot of damage and helps your follow up attacks because of the armour pen, but usually you need a stun first to get in range.
I guess you can get out of mana by healing but the best way to not need to heal is to camp the brush and put pressure on them. Taric is the strongest support early on pretty much, they shouldn't be able to fight you unless you have some trash carry like sivir and they have vayne or something.
I guess you can get harassed a lot if there are too many creeps on their side that its too risky to be agressive, best thing there is tell your guy to back off to tower and you won't lose many creeps because if they have 3-6 more ranged creeps they will clear your wave super fast.
Well doran's ring aren't useful unless your team is doing extremely good. I shouldn't be lasthitting at all, and if i don't get kills/assists/towers im basicly fucked, cause i won't have any gold for wards. But meh, who cares, tell me i build him bad, cause it seems i found the solution for it, but apparently i'm not doing it well enough. Oh well, idc :p
On June 24 2011 02:50 Sponkz wrote: Well doran's ring aren't useful unless your team is doing extremely good. I shouldn't be lasthitting at all, and if i don't get kills/assists/towers im basicly fucked, cause i won't have any gold for wards. But meh, who cares, tell me i build him bad, cause it seems i found the solution for it, but apparently i'm not doing it well enough. Oh well, idc :p
As I mentioned in the Janna thread, it takes 10 minutes for a HoG to catch up to a DRing on cost-effectiveness. Before that point there is absolutely no reason to be behind on ward gold because you spent less gold to get superior stats.
Effectively, buying a DRing is like getting better stats than a HoG along with immediate spare gold to get 5 wards.
Even though I rarely play him anymore because I can't seem to win a game with him in solo queue, I'm still paying attention to this thread and I'm going to update/fix the OP sometime today or tomorrow. If there's anything you guys think I should add aside from what's been posting, let me know and i'll put it in when I fix the OP up.
On June 24 2011 02:50 Sponkz wrote: Well doran's ring aren't useful unless your team is doing extremely good. I shouldn't be lasthitting at all, and if i don't get kills/assists/towers im basicly fucked, cause i won't have any gold for wards. But meh, who cares, tell me i build him bad, cause it seems i found the solution for it, but apparently i'm not doing it well enough. Oh well, idc :p
Look at this way: Dorans rings are extremely efficient for gold. We're talking about 900 gold worth of stats for 475 gold. If you buy a gold item, it will take roughly 25 minutes for it JUST TO PAY FOR ITESELF. The reason people get them is because they become more and more efficient as the game goes on, Doran's rings are going to be a worse 30-40 minutes in the game but significantly better for the first 20 minutes or so. Instead of spending 800-875 gold on a gold item you are spending 475 gold on an item that gives MORE STATS and guess what? You get free money to spend on wards.
Doran's rings also let you dominate early game better, which can result in you getting kills/assists or towers, because if you get a kill in lane you get a lot of free damage on a tower. It can snowball pretty fast.
You will get some farm when you carry leaves lane, its going to be minor of course, but not the same as roaming the map and getting literally no creeps.
Base gold/10 with greed is 14, add one gold item is 19, so getting that second gold item is 25% more base gold which is significant but it's not the difference between "wards" and "no wards" especially considering how much money you are spending on it compared to the drings. Also, gold quints. If it takes 20 minutes to get your second gold item, it will be 50 minutes until the second gold item makes as much gold as the gold quints have. (3 gold/10 vs 5 gold/10 when you buy the item).
Because they take so long to pay for themselves, you have to remember the stats are the most important part of the gold item, the gold gaining bit is actually more about making the item more cost efficient. HoG's are good because they let you stay alive longer in team fights. Kage's are good because AP is good. Philos are arguably good because they help your lane sustain and sustain in tower siege situations. Dorans rings give a combination of all 3 of these things and are more cost effective for a significant portion of the game. Taric is also an early game support mostly as well so that's what you should focus on. Although AP is good on him, his scaling is pretty terrible compared to soraka or sona you mostly just want to have the stats to not get insta bursted and to have the rest on helping your heal.
On June 24 2011 02:50 Sponkz wrote: Well doran's ring aren't useful unless your team is doing extremely good. I shouldn't be lasthitting at all, and if i don't get kills/assists/towers im basicly fucked, cause i won't have any gold for wards. But meh, who cares, tell me i build him bad, cause it seems i found the solution for it, but apparently i'm not doing it well enough. Oh well, idc :p
As I mentioned in the Janna thread, it takes 10 minutes for a HoG to catch up to a DRing on cost-effectiveness. Before that point there is absolutely no reason to be behind on ward gold because you spent less gold to get superior stats.
Effectively, buying a DRing is like getting better stats than a HoG along with immediate spare gold to get 5 wards.
While you might be right, i still think there's a difference in being cost-effictive and being useful as a support to your team. Sure DRing might be more cost-efficient than the HoG when you buy it upfront, but the constant gp/10 makes you being able to piss wards all over the map. With the DRing i'm relying on either my gp/10 quints or the gold ticking in every second as standard. 5 wards won't be a game-changer. If a game lasts say 30 minutes, you should've popped out more than 5 wards, and if you suddenly lose because of no map control, you have no way of getting back into the game, because you can't re-ward, since your team just got aced without killing anyone and you don't have gold for wards.
Having 1 more gold item gives you the money for 2 extra wards every 5 minutes. Add that to the fact that you are spending more money up front means you don't get that many more wards. If you get your second gold item at 20 minutes instead of a dorans ring you are down 4 wards so you dont start making money until 30 minutes and are going to have 4 more wards by 50 minutes, and most games end in 30 minutes or less.
Also, I seriously seriously doubt you have problems buying wards even off just base gold and gold quints. The only times I am ever short of gold for wards is when I am losing horribly have 0 gold items and I bought an aegis. The main trouble with warding is actually losing map control and the other team having oracles, more than gold. You never need to FILL the map with wards anyway. Just entrances to jungle and baron/dragon, sometimes their buffs, obviously focusing around baron when its the main objective.
On June 24 2011 02:50 Sponkz wrote: Well doran's ring aren't useful unless your team is doing extremely good. I shouldn't be lasthitting at all, and if i don't get kills/assists/towers im basicly fucked, cause i won't have any gold for wards. But meh, who cares, tell me i build him bad, cause it seems i found the solution for it, but apparently i'm not doing it well enough. Oh well, idc :p
As I mentioned in the Janna thread, it takes 10 minutes for a HoG to catch up to a DRing on cost-effectiveness. Before that point there is absolutely no reason to be behind on ward gold because you spent less gold to get superior stats.
Effectively, buying a DRing is like getting better stats than a HoG along with immediate spare gold to get 5 wards.
While you might be right, i still think there's a difference in being cost-effictive and being useful as a support to your team. Sure DRing might be more cost-efficient than the HoG when you buy it upfront, but the constant gp/10 makes you being able to piss wards all over the map. With the DRing i'm relying on either my gp/10 quints or the gold ticking in every second as standard. 5 wards won't be a game-changer. If a game lasts say 30 minutes, you should've popped out more than 5 wards, and if you suddenly lose because of no map control, you have no way of getting back into the game, because you can't re-ward, since your team just got aced without killing anyone and you don't have gold for wards.
Your first gp10 item will pretty much always get to be cost-effective. Thats not being argued. However, your second one (which is the issue at hand, with regard to the stackability of them), will not be bought until 15-20 minutes. They don't become worthwhile till 35-40 minutes. Before then,you're not even gaining wards from them--you're just filling the gold hole the items themselves created. And even after that, both teams will have oracles on constant rotation, so you're not going to haphazardly dump wards around the map.
And you got it backwards. DRings are BETTER when your team is doing poorly because they give immediate stats. Early kills/towers/dragons favor gp10 items because getting them early increases the chance of payoff. You don't buy gold/10 when your team has no control over objectives and might lose before the gold/10 amounts to anything.
While on the Janna thread I 100% argue'd for two gold/10 items, on Taric this is an entirely different issue imho.
Where on Janna I still stand with the point that the AP and MP5 on DRing are almost a complete waste and the "It's SO COST EFFICIENCT" does not hold up, taric really benefits from those two stats.
Philo -> DRings/Oracle/Ward -> Aegis is the way to roll imho.
Main question for me would be whether to prioritize Oracle or DRing, but that's kinda depending on the game you're playing.
Finally updated the tanky build, I'm going to be writing up an AP build later but I just wanted to update that fucking dinosaur of a build in case I get lazy again (Clarity lol ).
Yo, I never noticed there was a Taric thread but he is the champ I primarly used to get 2k (Corki being the other huehuehue). I go real man's Taric Full ap page / cv flash. Take bot with some strong champ. Max DAZZLE and SHATTER with 1 point in Q. I delay my ulti depending whether or not I am laning with someone who benefits from the AD.
I go 2-3 drings into deathcap and then build survivability. At lvl 2 you can usually 100 to 0 someone with your duo partner.
On July 15 2011 16:36 HazMat wrote: Yo, I never noticed there was a Taric thread but he is the champ I primarly used to get 2k (Corki being the other huehuehue). I go real man's Taric Full ap page / cv flash. Take bot with some strong champ. Max DAZZLE and SHATTER with 1 point in Q. I delay my ulti depending whether or not I am laning with someone who benefits from the AD.
I go 2-3 drings into deathcap and then build survivability. At lvl 2 you can usually 100 to 0 someone with your duo partner.
Im guessing you take CS in lane and cant play babysitter for AD with that build?
Ok that build is crazy lol. First game went 6-2-9 as taric/vayne vs soraka corki and they surrendered at 20, next game 3-5-29 as garen/taric vs alistar/ashe, first time playing taric in like a year XD.
My only question is, do you prioritize wards over getting deathcap? Seems like im asking my team to buy wards with this build more than i would playing more conservatively.
On July 15 2011 16:36 HazMat wrote: Full ap page / cv flash. Take bot with some strong champ. Max DAZZLE and SHATTER with 1 point in Q. I delay my ulti depending whether or not I am laning with someone who benefits from the AD.
by full AP page do you mean flat AP everything? do you run scaling anything? MPen or AP reds?
how do you feel about taking improved exhaust for the -10 MR for essentially doubling your burst power early? (i don't know if i'd give up clair for it, but situationally i'd give up flash?)
On July 16 2011 09:08 Hakker wrote: Ok that build is crazy lol. First game went 6-2-9 as taric/vayne vs soraka corki and they surrendered at 20, next game 3-5-29 as garen/taric vs alistar/ashe, first time playing taric in like a year XD.
My only question is, do you prioritize wards over getting deathcap? Seems like im asking my team to buy wards with this build more than i would playing more conservatively.
Yeah, sadly with this build you become a lot less supportive and buy less wards/oracles so it's mostly a solo queue build.
@Gtr: I run mpen reds, scaling ap yellows (flat probably better but I don't own them), flat ap blues and quints. I'd like to get exhaust or ignite but Flash/CV is too important.
Sometimes your lane partner will grab exhaust which you'll always use on the enemy carry, even if you jump the support.
okay so i tried this and it's stupid stupid strong our fiddle died to blue twice so i wasn't expecting a win... but then i got first blood after 100-0'ing the enemy sona pretty much by myself at level 2, en route to feeding my vayne 4 more kills by level 6. any time sona left her tower she died. vayne was like 7-0-2 by 15 minutes and had a cleaver and PD by 20. just so ridiculously powerful and consistent. even with cait trapping the brush this build was unstoppable. i went 2 d-rings into philo, HoG and was building deathcap when they surrendered. do you suggest skipping the gold/5s since they're coming late into the build? and for boots, sorc or merc?
I like the idea of ap taric. Dmg taric stronger than standard support taric. Taric has too hard of a time being a heal type support bot, at least with dmg taric you can abuse his earlier timings harder, and then become mediocre/a stun bot again.
On July 16 2011 11:53 gtrsrs wrote: okay so i tried this and it's stupid stupid strong our fiddle died to blue twice so i wasn't expecting a win... but then i got first blood after 100-0'ing the enemy sona pretty much by myself at level 2, en route to feeding my vayne 4 more kills by level 6. any time sona left her tower she died. vayne was like 7-0-2 by 15 minutes and had a cleaver and PD by 20. just so ridiculously powerful and consistent. even with cait trapping the brush this build was unstoppable. i went 2 d-rings into philo, HoG and was building deathcap when they surrendered. do you suggest skipping the gold/5s since they're coming late into the build? and for boots, sorc or merc?
Yeah I don't get GP5 since I try to get 3drings super fast for crazy burst before the laning phase ends. Maybe 1 kage but that means you can only have 2 drings since you need a slot for wards. boots are usually mercs.
@zulu: Meh. AP effects all of Taric's skills so i don't see the reason an aegis when you can do everything better with AP (stronger dazzle, shatter, ulti and heal)
On July 16 2011 12:30 zulu_nation8 wrote: for most of the time during fights you're just gonna be sitting in the middle of crowds doing nothing so isn't it better to just rush aegis?
pro-tip your jungler gets aegis now anyways so you don't need to IMO
okay i'll skip the HoG and philo next game and get a faster deathcap
Personally, I don't think a support relying on team securing globals and lane doing well, no cs, and securing 3 dorans and a big tier item is really solid.
I've been playing ap taric for the longest time when I'm bored and wanna go botlane to trollhard. After so many games with retarded scores, I figured it wasn't as trolly as I first thought.
Only problem is not enough wards, as shake already mentioned. If we really need them I just get a kage pick after my initial doran and use them conservatively.
Ok ive determined this is the single best trollbuild for duo queue pick taric and use shakes manric build then have your friend play garen with ad runes (dont need arp cuz of manrics armor reduction) and exhaust+ignite, its free kills from level 2. Even jungler ganks hardly work because you can 100-0 any support/carry lane in between stun+silence.
ap taric bot lane isn't even funny in *RANKED* games i've already made 2 people ragequit before 10 minutes i always apologize after the game because i know trying to lane against taric/cait where you get stunlocked and bursted down any time you leave your tower has to be the least fun thing ever
i always thought in solo queue you should take a solo lane and carry the game that way, but with this build i've learned that it's easier to carry by destroying 2 people in lane instead of 1
i've been duoing with different people to try different combos. lee sin is real real strong with this too, but he's a little harder to finesse if you can't land the skillshots because of creeps or whatever. annie is beast ofc. haven't tried garen but i know there's no way it's not brokenly good. i'm loving this i'm taking it all the way to gold
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/xic40.jpg)
[/QUOTE]
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/F1eOj.jpg)
).
