|
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
Like there are replays. In terms of architecture, LoL is a regular deterministic RTS game, the problem of making replays for that one has been solved countless times. It's a month of work for one programmer. With tests included. Okay, if you implement the infrastructure (see HoN and their replay database), it's more, but they are goddamn making replays for almost a year.
Don't talk trash about things you don't understand. For most of this and last year, the #1 priority has been server stability. I don't think you truly understand just how popular LoL is. LoL has several million games played every single day. Its player base competes with WoW. For a game that only launched 2 years ago, that's insane. The original client and back-end systems were not designed to scale so rapidly. In fact, a lot of it is incredibly bad at scaling. Riot also has a lack of engineers so if they spend all their time keeping the servers working, then they can't work on other things.
Riot also wants to do replays right. We're talking basically SC2 style replays with the ability to observe everything, see cooldowns on everything, different view modes, backward compatibility, maybe even camera tracking. Then realise that with several million games per day it's not that simple.
The game engine also prohibits replays to a certain extent. When you play, the only information your client receives from the server is the information on your screen. Nothing else. It's what makes the client hack-proof. You literally cannot hack the client to do things like reveal enemy positions. Even if you did do things like turn off FoW, you wouldn't see anything because your client does not have that information.
So you can see how fully functional replays would pose a challenge since you never actually receive all the information in a game. And with several million games played per day, storing every single replay ever on the Riot servers is not practical.
On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
Same with Magma Chamber and Project Shiny. The time they have taken to do it already exceeds the deadline for a complete game (provided you're using a licensed engine). And they don't have the design issues, only the graphics. Lol what?
Riot's engine is pretty much hand-made, but has some external assets in it. Do you understand the problem with Project Shiny? I'm going to quote myself here.
On June 09 2011 12:07 MoonBear wrote:
The second is Project Shiny. It's aim is an overhaul of graphics and rendering for the entire game (especially since Magma Chamber will have some new textures and stuff). However, the Tech Team also wants it so that if your machine now can run LoL, it will still be able to run LoL after Project Shiny is released. This also means a lot of testing of every change on pretty much every system that currently runs LoL. So basically, every graphics card, OS, RAM, Processing Chip, etc. combination that runs LoL now should still have to be able to run Project Shiny with no problem. In the worst case scenarios, you would have to turn the detail settings down, but it should still run without lag.
That is a LOT of testing for complete compatibility. Don't forget engineer and QA time still has to be spent on everything else Riot wants to do.
On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
It's like when they say "Our programmers are working on a new system that will allow global ult ranges to be displayed on the minimap" and they do with such pride as if it was anything even remotely close to a hard task. Wake up, Riot, it's an extremely simple mundane interface upgrade that takes 3 days at most to get done. By one person. And they talk about it as if they have a magician that is weaving intricate magical spells to get shit done.
What do you want, functioning servers and patches or global ult tech? Sure, they could order someone to do it. But so what? Even if the tech was in place, you'd still need to do a complete rework of Pantheon+TF (Shen will keep global ult). And again, there's not enough engineers. The PvP Client Team already has an incredibly huge backlog of things they need to do.
On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
Spectator mode my ass. How hard is it really to stream the game state to one more client and block the user input for it? Ugh.
Actually, quite hard. However, if you're a genius programmer, please feel free to apply for an engineering job.
On June 09 2011 20:27 BluzMan wrote:
Version control is a fine argument if only it was not done by S2 games months BEFORE the release. Riot's web storage is still a joke compared to what HoN had at release, and the game is like years old already. In HoN, you can go into anyone's match history almost as deep as you want, and DL and watch replays for each of those games. In LoL you can only look through 10 last games in match history and only see the stats of the player himself, but not the other 9 people participating.
Again, LoL was not designed to scale so rapidly given its player base. So much time has had to be spent on just keeping the game working with not enough manpower that there's not enough manpower for other functions.
On June 09 2011 20:27 BluzMan wrote:
Since Riot is also failing community projects (see recent drama) I have no idea where they dump all the money they're getting.
Money is not a problem. Having enough qualified people is the problem. If Riot could solve all their problems by throwing money at it, I assure you, everything would have been fixed long ago.
|
thanks for the insight, man
|
On June 09 2011 20:27 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 19:35 spinesheath wrote:On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
For the last 1,5 years I work at a game development company and I'm honestly puzzled by Riot's innovation deadlines. They take AGES to do simple stuff.
Like there are replays. In terms of architecture, LoL is a regular deterministic RTS game, the problem of making replays for that one has been solved countless times. It's a month of work for one programmer. With tests included. Okay, if you implement the infrastructure (see HoN and their replay database), it's more, but they are goddamn making replays for almost a year.
Same with Magma Chamber and Project Shiny. The time they have taken to do it already exceeds the deadline for a complete game (provided you're using a licensed engine). And they don't have the design issues, only the graphics. Lol what?
It's like when they say "Our programmers are working on a new system that will allow global ult ranges to be displayed on the minimap" and they do with such pride as if it was anything even remotely close to a hard task. Wake up, Riot, it's an extremely simple mundane interface upgrade that takes 3 days at most to get done. By one person. And they talk about it as if they have a magician that is weaving intricate magical spells to get shit done.
Spectator mode my ass. How hard is it really to stream the game state to one more client and block the user input for it? Ugh. It SHOULD be easy. However that is only the case if the current client/server code architecture is at least somewhat reasonable. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a huge mess. Replays become a bit harder if you have to consider patches, but it's not like you can't use an existing version control system and work it into the game. Riot stated that the lack of version management is the main reason replays are held back. It's not unlikely that they want to clean up all the other crap as well while they're at it. They have to restructure a lot of their code anyways. I thought about the Gravedigger in OOT as well  Geez, in the time they have had one could entirely rewrite the network backend from scratch. I don't understand exactly why Riot is so slow, but they are ridiculously slow, that is a fact. Version control is a fine argument if only it was not done by S2 games months BEFORE the release. Riot's web storage is still a joke compared to what HoN had at release, and the game is like years old already. In HoN, you can go into anyone's match history almost as deep as you want, and DL and watch replays for each of those games. In LoL you can only look through 10 last games in match history and only see the stats of the player himself, but not the other 9 people participating. Since Riot is also failing community projects (see recent drama) I have no idea where they dump all the money they're getting.
Ok let's put it like this: Riot was freshly created for LoL (afaik). Especially back when the development started they didn't have the skills other, older companies had. But LoL was released really quickly, and then it became so popular that Riot had trouble keeping up with the growth of the game.
It is obvious that this leads to major design flaws, and a lack of time to fix those. The LoL design/code is most likely a huge mess. Maintaining a messy, quickly growing game AND at the same time developing a new, clean version of the game that you can switch over to rather seamlessly while being very limited in resources IS HARD.
Riot did a bad job early in the development of LoL and now they pay for it. But they didn't have the resources to do it better in the same time, and nobody knows if they would have hit that market if they took longer to release LoL. So you really can't just say they are bad.
|
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On June 09 2011 22:40 spinesheath wrote:
Ok let's put it like this: Riot was freshly created for LoL (afaik). Especially back when the development started they didn't have the skills other, older companies had. But LoL was released really quickly, and then it became so popular that Riot had trouble keeping up with the growth of the game.
It is obvious that this leads to major design flaws, and a lack of time to fix those. The LoL design/code is most likely a huge mess. Maintaining a messy, quickly growing game AND at the same time developing a new, clean version of the game that you can switch over to rather seamlessly while being very limited in resources IS HARD.
Riot did a bad job early in the development of LoL and now they pay for it. But they didn't have the resources to do it better in the same time, and nobody knows if they would have hit that market if they took longer to release LoL. So you really can't just say they are bad.
Pretty much. Also, Riot only started with ~30 people and not all of them were engineers (you need accountants, marketing, customer support, design, artists, etc). Some of the old art assets were even drawn by Guinsoo in paint, lol.
|
On June 09 2011 17:15 locodoco wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 16:51 byFd wrote:On June 09 2011 16:41 GiygaS wrote:
So as I approach level 30, (I'm 29 right now). I'm deciding I should start picking a champion I should specialize in. Any thoughts from TL? i'd specialize in a class of champions, like ranged ad or supports or tanks or tanky ad or whatever, so you are not completely useless when your main is banned/picked by someone else play everything if u wanna get better there's a cap to how good u can get if u only play a certain class of champions and even a lower cap if u play a single champion
NOTE: if you pick the right character, that cap is still pretty high in solo queue as displayed by Bryden7 going from nobody -> top 25 by just spamming solo lane Malphite games. My currently elo is mostly due to playing Jarman in roughly 50% of my recent ranked games.
|
Bugged client atm is OP
Ok, so after two no start ranked games, 1 finally starts.
|
On June 09 2011 22:48 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 22:40 spinesheath wrote:
Ok let's put it like this: Riot was freshly created for LoL (afaik). Especially back when the development started they didn't have the skills other, older companies had. But LoL was released really quickly, and then it became so popular that Riot had trouble keeping up with the growth of the game.
It is obvious that this leads to major design flaws, and a lack of time to fix those. The LoL design/code is most likely a huge mess. Maintaining a messy, quickly growing game AND at the same time developing a new, clean version of the game that you can switch over to rather seamlessly while being very limited in resources IS HARD.
Riot did a bad job early in the development of LoL and now they pay for it. But they didn't have the resources to do it better in the same time, and nobody knows if they would have hit that market if they took longer to release LoL. So you really can't just say they are bad. Pretty much. Also, Riot only started with ~30 people and not all of them were engineers (you need accountants, marketing, customer support, design, artists, etc). Some of the old art assets were even drawn by Guinsoo in paint, lol.
So tell Riot to read my app already so I can get in there and fix the esports division.
|
I don't think an American company cares enough about e-sports to realize that Marcou is blatantly incompetent and that the scene will continue to be plagued by shitty tournaments until there's some decent leadership on Riot's end.
|
On June 09 2011 22:18 MoonBear wrote:
/snipped
Money is not a problem. Having enough qualified people is the problem. If Riot could solve all their problems by throwing money at it, I assure you, everything would have been fixed long ago.
Like RiotMarcou.Nepotism right there.
|
On June 10 2011 00:10 Mogwai wrote:
I don't think an American company cares enough about e-sports to realize that Marcou is blatantly incompetent and that the scene will continue to be plagued by shitty tournaments until there's some decent leadership on Riot's end.
+1
|
Dont you just love when you win a ranked and then when you try to go back to lobby and the "waiting for stats"-window appears followed by nothing at all loading and your game is forever lost, it just never happend.
Outplayed by riot.
|
Is the game bugged for anyone? I started a game and then it gave me this BS about losing connection and not being able to reconnect to the game =\
|
On June 10 2011 00:52 Senx wrote:
Dont you just love when you win a ranked and then when you try to go back to lobby and the "waiting for stats"-window appears followed by nothing at all loading and your game is forever lost, it just never happend.
Outplayed by riot.
doesnt it appear in list and stuff when you restart the client?
|
On June 09 2011 22:18 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
Like there are replays. In terms of architecture, LoL is a regular deterministic RTS game, the problem of making replays for that one has been solved countless times. It's a month of work for one programmer. With tests included. Okay, if you implement the infrastructure (see HoN and their replay database), it's more, but they are goddamn making replays for almost a year. Don't talk trash about things you don't understand. For most of this and last year, the #1 priority has been server stability. I don't think you truly understand just how popular LoL is. LoL has several million games played every single day. Its player base competes with WoW. For a game that only launched 2 years ago, that's insane. The original client and back-end systems were not designed to scale so rapidly. In fact, a lot of it is incredibly bad at scaling. Riot also has a lack of engineers so if they spend all their time keeping the servers working, then they can't work on other things. Riot also wants to do replays right. We're talking basically SC2 style replays with the ability to observe everything, see cooldowns on everything, different view modes, backward compatibility, maybe even camera tracking. Then realise that with several million games per day it's not that simple. The game engine also prohibits replays to a certain extent. When you play, the only information your client receives from the server is the information on your screen. Nothing else. It's what makes the client hack-proof. You literally cannot hack the client to do things like reveal enemy positions. Even if you did do things like turn off FoW, you wouldn't see anything because your client does not have that information. So you can see how fully functional replays would pose a challenge since you never actually receive all the information in a game. And with several million games played per day, storing every single replay ever on the Riot servers is not practical. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
Same with Magma Chamber and Project Shiny. The time they have taken to do it already exceeds the deadline for a complete game (provided you're using a licensed engine). And they don't have the design issues, only the graphics. Lol what?
Riot's engine is pretty much hand-made, but has some external assets in it. Do you understand the problem with Project Shiny? I'm going to quote myself here. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 12:07 MoonBear wrote:
The second is Project Shiny. It's aim is an overhaul of graphics and rendering for the entire game (especially since Magma Chamber will have some new textures and stuff). However, the Tech Team also wants it so that if your machine now can run LoL, it will still be able to run LoL after Project Shiny is released. This also means a lot of testing of every change on pretty much every system that currently runs LoL. So basically, every graphics card, OS, RAM, Processing Chip, etc. combination that runs LoL now should still have to be able to run Project Shiny with no problem. In the worst case scenarios, you would have to turn the detail settings down, but it should still run without lag. That is a LOT of testing for complete compatibility. Don't forget engineer and QA time still has to be spent on everything else Riot wants to do. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
It's like when they say "Our programmers are working on a new system that will allow global ult ranges to be displayed on the minimap" and they do with such pride as if it was anything even remotely close to a hard task. Wake up, Riot, it's an extremely simple mundane interface upgrade that takes 3 days at most to get done. By one person. And they talk about it as if they have a magician that is weaving intricate magical spells to get shit done. What do you want, functioning servers and patches or global ult tech? Sure, they could order someone to do it. But so what? Even if the tech was in place, you'd still need to do a complete rework of Pantheon+TF (Shen will keep global ult). And again, there's not enough engineers. The PvP Client Team already has an incredibly huge backlog of things they need to do. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 17:43 BluzMan wrote:
Spectator mode my ass. How hard is it really to stream the game state to one more client and block the user input for it? Ugh. Actually, quite hard. However, if you're a genius programmer, please feel free to apply for an engineering job. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 20:27 BluzMan wrote:
Version control is a fine argument if only it was not done by S2 games months BEFORE the release. Riot's web storage is still a joke compared to what HoN had at release, and the game is like years old already. In HoN, you can go into anyone's match history almost as deep as you want, and DL and watch replays for each of those games. In LoL you can only look through 10 last games in match history and only see the stats of the player himself, but not the other 9 people participating. Again, LoL was not designed to scale so rapidly given its player base. So much time has had to be spent on just keeping the game working with not enough manpower that there's not enough manpower for other functions. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 20:27 BluzMan wrote:
Since Riot is also failing community projects (see recent drama) I have no idea where they dump all the money they're getting. Money is not a problem. Having enough qualified people is the problem. If Riot could solve all their problems by throwing money at it, I assure you, everything would have been fixed long ago. Maybe you havn't stepped on the forsaken land that is the EU servers but they are god damn atrocious. It's a lottery every single game, am I going to end up on a decent on or on a 3rd world server from the 80's? And I mean finding out of work Server Technicians can't be hard unless you plan to pay them in turnips. So saying "Throwing money won't help" well it damn well would on the EU side. Just in the last 3 days I've had several people complain about not being allowed to chose their champions because the client just flips out.
It must be hard to say that the focus is on server stability when it is getting worse and worse by the day. And yea I get it, LoL has more players than expected, however we are talking months and months and months of this crap.
|
On June 10 2011 00:58 byFd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 00:52 Senx wrote:
Dont you just love when you win a ranked and then when you try to go back to lobby and the "waiting for stats"-window appears followed by nothing at all loading and your game is forever lost, it just never happend.
Outplayed by riot. doesnt it appear in list and stuff when you restart the client?
Wouldn't know now that the servers seem to be down/busy :s
It didn't show a previous time, we'll see what happens this time.
|
Just read an interesting hypothesis on the GD forums. Mordekaiser = 5 Yordles in a single suit of armor. I think this would explain a lot.
|
I dunno who Moonbear is but suddenly he has become my #1 favourite poster here.
SO MUCH KNOWLEDGE.
|
*Bows to Moonbear*
You actually sound smart on the internet. Do you know how fucking hard that is?
But anyway, there was a post on TL long time ago about what motivates us. One major point in the video is that once you add another factor to something you often enjoy as money, then the person performs very poorly.
For example, normal games for me are incredibly fun. People are chill for the most part, we have nothing to lose, but also nothing to gain. But when it comes to ranked games, I find myself faltering, and the overall level of play is incredibly low. There is so much more to lose. You are being compared to everyone else around you and doesn't it suck when you realize you are no one special?
Do you think ranked games apply to this video?
|
So what I learned in the last couple of pages is Bluzman is an idiot.
User was warned for this post
|
Well yeah, last few days my login queues for LoL EU have been 30-50min. Wonder what's with Riot this time...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
