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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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Scorcher2k
United States802 Posts
On January 06 2011 06:51 TheYango wrote: On further inspection, the comparison between Piltover Peacemaker and Boomerang Blade does point to Piltover Peacemaker being on the weak side. I still don't think 1:1 AD scaling is a problem in and of itself, but you need 240 AD for PP to break even with BB's initial damage, and that's not even considering the fact that Sivir gives up less autoattacks to throw BB (no channel time), and the fact that BB swings around and can hit targets a second time. You can't raise the base damage because in the early game it hits like a truck. You also have to remember that if you hit any targets prior to the champion you were aiming for that for each target is 6% less damage done to the next thing it hits down to 70%. I believe it should scale better but I also think it should also be punished more for going through multiple targets. I feel this would make it less of a spam as long as you have mana ability and more of a pick your shot ability. As a slightly related side-note, I never understood why Riot has some skills as scaling off base AD and others scaling off bonus AD. Couldn't you just make everything scale off one or the other and modify the base damage at each spell rank accordingly? In this case it is just poor judgement I think. Nothing about her design makes a good case for a hybrid build or straight AP build. I think perhaps they get caught up in themes and just don't think rationally. | ||
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Khul Sadukar
Australia1735 Posts
Tx. Wasnt linked in the guides section which was all I checked as the game already started. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 06 2011 07:31 BlackPaladin wrote: Got to love the games where you're sivir, you're super farmed, and your team comp is shen, sivir, janna, morgana, rammus, and you lose because your team is too bad to protect you.  That's why you get that Warmog's. Besides, Sivir just has to hit whatever is in range, and retreat as her enemies advance. She'll still kill everyone with her Ricochets. So Piltover Peacemaker applies on-hit effects in an AoE? Which means she has AoE lifesteal? To be honest, that seems pretty damn strong on a ranged carry. By the way, how are you people building her? I would probably go for a simple Bloodthirster stacking build with an occasional Last Whisper. Maybe Black Cleaver. Actually Black Cleaver sounds awesome. Since she doesn't have an innate ASpd boost and her spells don't crit afaik I wouldn't go down the IE path. I don't even own her so that's just my theorycrafting obviously. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 06 2011 07:48 Scorcher2k wrote: You can't raise the base damage because in the early game it hits like a truck. You also have to remember that if you hit any targets prior to the champion you were aiming for that for each target is 6% less damage done to the next thing it hits down to 70%. I believe it should scale better but I also think it should also be punished more for going through multiple targets. I feel this would make it less of a spam as long as you have mana ability and more of a pick your shot ability. Then just scale up the base damage of higher ranks while leaving the lower ranks intact. I still don't see how that's a problem. The second half of your paragraph is an issue of style, not an issue of the ability's actual strength. I still think there's no reason to give the ability an AD ratio of better than 1 when no other non-ultimate does so, and it's perfectly possible to adjust the power of the skill without breaking that precedent. On January 06 2011 07:48 Scorcher2k wrote: In this case it is just poor judgement I think. Nothing about her design makes a good case for a hybrid build or straight AP build. I think perhaps they get caught up in themes and just don't think rationally. I meant in general, couldn't every "scales off bonus AD" skill be changed to a "scales off total AD" skill that has ~50 less base damage at the first rank, and appropriately less base damage at higher ranks? It just seems like having to differentiate "scales off base AD" and "scales off bonus AD" can cause some confusion for no real gain in depth of gameplay. On January 06 2011 08:09 spinesheath wrote: So Piltover Peacemaker applies on-hit effects in an AoE? Which means she has AoE lifesteal? To be honest, that seems pretty damn strong on a ranged carry. By the way, how are you people building her? I would probably go for a simple Bloodthirster stacking build with an occasional Last Whisper. Maybe Black Cleaver. Actually Black Cleaver sounds awesome. Since she doesn't have an innate ASpd boost and her spells don't crit afaik I wouldn't go down the IE path. I don't even own her so that's just my theorycrafting obviously. PP doesn't apply on-hits. Ace in the Hole does. For some reason, people keep confusing the two skills in this Caitlyn discussion (like Gizmo's earlier comment on Q's AD ratio). | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 06 2011 08:11 TheYango wrote: I still think there's no reason to give the ability an AD ratio of better than 1 when no other non-ultimate does so, and it's perfectly possible to adjust the power of the skill without breaking that precedent. Spear Shot. Ok that one's a special case as it has AD scaling that changes with the ability rank, but still. On January 06 2011 08:11 TheYango wrote: PP doesn't apply on-hits. Ace in the Hole does. For some reason, people keep confusing the two skills in this Caitlyn discussion (like Gizmo's earlier comment on Q's AD ratio). Oh, ok. In that case, I don't really know if I would stick to the suggested items. Makes her rather unpleasant to itemize imo. Actually I would probably try GB/B on her too :p At level 16 and 40 CDR her ult should become quite spammable with 36 seconds CD. The downside is that her ult only scales off bonus AD and GB/B doesn't provide a whole lot of that. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
Also i don't think Cait's Q applies on-hits, only her ult. But i may be wrong here (again ) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 06 2011 08:21 Kaniol wrote: Making skills that scale off bonus AD allows you to make skills with good lategame scaling while rewarding only getting gold instead of rewarding experience as well. Is the difference big enough to be worth the confusion, though? The earliest someone can get the 5th rank of an ability is level 9, so in theory that's the last level at which you can really adjust the base damage--meaning that at level 18, the difference between "scales off bonus AD" and "scales off base AD" while adjusting the base damage at each rank accordingly is like 25 AD's worth of damage. Seeing as you could further downshift the base damage to accommodate for this, is it worth having "scales off bonus AD" when the difference is so small? | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On January 06 2011 08:09 spinesheath wrote: That's why you get that Warmog's. Besides, Sivir just has to hit whatever is in range, and retreat as her enemies advance. She'll still kill everyone with her Ricochets. Yep, bloodthirster, warmogs, banshee's LW, zerkers. But when they're CHASING your carry in the back of everyone on your team through an inhib tower into the base, and you're so bad that you can't even stop them from killing that carry when you're a janna, shen, rammus, morg combo, I honestly have no clue what to do anymore lol. This wasn't recent, it was a while ago but I will never forget it because they were just that bad. Shen would ult janna half the time, morg only shielded herself, and rammus and shen would only taunt the tanks for god knows why while trist would destroy them because the only thing that ever hit her were my ricochets lol. So it was like me vs their team. If I fought they'd all focus me and I'd still die instantly even with warmogs since my team never supported me at all in any way. And so far the best caitlyn's I've played against/with were caller's trolling with 3 tiamats and triforce, but that's caller. And some caitlyn that went high AS with BC, madreds, SotD, LW, and banshees. It seemed like a really weird build to me though. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
(let's skip the 'cdr is better on support characters!!!!!!') | ||
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cXm0d
United States93 Posts
Also, I've learned while doing so that ELO hell (Atleast the 1k area like people were complaining about) literally doesn't exist. I didn't just get lucky. I was getting 12 points per win in the 1ks, meaning I had to win 8-9 in a row (or atleast 2 wins per loss) to get out. That isn't luck. You carry, and you carry hard. If you can't get out of the 1k-1.2k it's not elo hell keeping you there. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
You can go the IE/LW route and just try to poke people with really hard hitting auto attacks and Q/R but it requires a team to babysit you. Or you go the cleaver/BT strat and try to tank people to death with lifesteal | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Obviously in practice whether or not you can freely spam abilities is going to depend upon your champion, and the actual benefit of CDR changes dramatically with team fight duration. For example if you have 3 abilities on 20 second cooldowns a 37 second team fight with max CDR lets you use them all three times, but a 34 second team fight only lets you use them twice. 15% CDR in this case does absolutely nothing. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 06 2011 09:21 Seuss wrote: The maximum return of 15% CDR, assuming you can freely spam and land abilities, is a 25% increase in damage output (if you already have 25% CDR). The maximum damage increase from 20 MPen is 16.67% (when an enemy only has 20 MR). Obviously in practice whether or not you can freely spam abilities is going to depend upon your champion, and the actual benefit of CDR changes dramatically with team fight duration. For example if you have 3 abilities on 20 second cooldowns a 37 second team fight with max CDR lets you use them all three times, but a 34 second team fight only lets you use them twice. 15% CDR in this case does absolutely nothing. In addition, there are a couple other complicating factors to be mindful of: - In most cases, CDR doesn't relevantly scale up the number of uses you get of an ultimate--Tibbers' CD isn't short enough that you'd get to use it twice in a fight, but it is short enough that you'd probably have it up for every team-fight, regardless of CDR. - MPen only scales damage. CDR scales utility. You don't just get more damage, you get more stuns, snares, slows, shields, etc. - Both stats get over-capped/diminished use in a pretty big spread of situations. For a caster that's reliably going to see golem buff, runes + masteries + golem buff is very likely to cap your CDR mid-late game, meaning that when golem buff is up, your boots are doing nothing. Over-capping is less likely to happen with Sorcerer's Shoes (since runes + sorcs gives you exactly 30 MPen--enough to penetrate base and you're not going to get Guise/Abyssal except in situations where you know they'll be relevant). At the same time, the 20 pen is less useful against targets with higher MRes, and is of diminished use if you plan on getting Void Staff. Ultimately I'd say you can't really say one is better than the other--but that their comparison relies on a couple things: 1) How reliably can you get golem buff? If you aren't the #1 blue buff candidate on your team, you're basically never going to be at risk of over-capping CDR, so you're more likely to get CDR boots. 2) Do you have specific abilities where the CDR will make a big difference? (e.g. being able to Lux ulti a second time in a fight) 3) How much non-damage utility do your spells provide? This combined with 1 is probably why most supports want the CDR--they don't get blue, and they're not there to do damage. 4) How much flat pen do you want/need, and are you getting a Void Staff? | ||
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Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
On January 06 2011 09:16 cXm0d wrote: I'm now in the 1400's!!!! Doubled my elo from when I duo'd with baddie friends, I'm so excited haha. Also, I've learned while doing so that ELO hell (Atleast the 1k area like people were complaining about) literally doesn't exist. I didn't just get lucky. I was getting 12 points per win in the 1ks, meaning I had to win 8-9 in a row (or atleast 2 wins per loss) to get out. That isn't luck. You carry, and you carry hard. If you can't get out of the 1k-1.2k it's not elo hell keeping you there. I have learnt that when I play Sivir in ranked, I win even 4v5 in several cases. Playing a role where you cannot a) push towers quickly, b) accumulate farm or c) accumulate a bunch of kills is not a good idea at lower Elo. Picking a role / champion that doesn't directly lead to destroying their nexus leaves you at the mercy of your teammates that can push towers (for the most part), and in general that's not something I trust my team to do. Sivir with TP is seriously great... although when teams start getting a little smarter (read: not completely retarded) I'll probably have to start running cleanse. | ||
ofcourse
Poland67 Posts
On January 06 2011 09:16 cXm0d wrote: I'm now in the 1400's!!!! Doubled my elo from when I duo'd with baddie friends, I'm so excited haha. Also, I've learned while doing so that ELO hell (Atleast the 1k area like people were complaining about) literally doesn't exist. I didn't just get lucky. I was getting 12 points per win in the 1ks, meaning I had to win 8-9 in a row (or atleast 2 wins per loss) to get out. That isn't luck. You carry, and you carry hard. If you can't get out of the 1k-1.2k it's not elo hell keeping you there. first of all gz i dont think there is a elo hell at all. its just that most people think that they are better then they really are, blaming mates for their losses and ignoring own mistakes. those players are everywhere, starting at the lowest elo up to reginald (jk:E). | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
oh yeah, add taric. | ||
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cXm0d
United States93 Posts
On January 06 2011 09:37 Dgiese wrote: I have learnt that when I play Sivir in ranked, I win even 4v5 in several cases. Playing a role where you cannot a) push towers quickly, b) accumulate farm or c) accumulate a bunch of kills is not a good idea at lower Elo. Picking a role / champion that doesn't directly lead to destroying their nexus leaves you at the mercy of your teammates that can push towers (for the most part), and in general that's not something I trust my team to do. Sivir with TP is seriously great... although when teams start getting a little smarter (read: not completely retarded) I'll probably have to start running cleanse. I had the issue when I started solo q of carrying really hard with kass (I have like 11/3 kd total) but not being able to get my team to push, then when late game happened I was screwed. Playing WW, or Sivir, or malphite has really helped with that. Now in the 1400's (just won my first 1400 game btw :DD) I can actually play rolls that aren't carries and someone on my team will actually know how to do it. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
news at 11 | ||
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